calloffthesearch

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Hendrik
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calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Tue May 07, 2019 4:31 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
... that there is no personal "I" and that life is flowing by itself without a specific doer. When the watcher has gone then knowingness occurs without being personal. There is just one consciousness looking through all of our eyes.
This is the understanding. The acutalization still has to take place...

What are you looking for at LU?
since Hendrik is on whatever path since 30 years... and even though there is no time, there is a feeling, that "I" have riped to fall away. There is the wish that LU is of help - so Hendrik dissolves and that what is left, is able to show that to others (deepest wish...)

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
The expectation is that the guide helpes me to help "myself" to get out of the habit of feeling personal - and to dissolve all the places to hide and to procrastinate.

I can speak/converse in german to - that is my mother tongue. So English and German is welcome :-)

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Starting with Sri Chinmoy 30 years ago (and surviving that) I did a lot of meditation and Vajrayana practices which have their magic. I listened to Dzogchen teachings and so forth, went several times to India, translate several spiritual teachers, and did inquiry (sat in Ramanaashram, sat in caves, diped in the Ganges... - just by reading Greg Godes book "Standing as awareness - a user´s guide" things became more transparent.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Tue May 07, 2019 4:49 pm

Hi Hendrick

My name is Pop and i will be your guide.

I've read your initial answers to the preliminary questions.
Lets jump straight in.

What does the word "I" or "me" point to, here and now?

Love,

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Tue May 07, 2019 5:46 pm

Hello Pop, great, that you are my guide :-)

the words I or me right now point to 2 seeming layers: one layer feels more personal, the other one is a nonpersonal feeling, more a kind of being.

Love Hendrik

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Tue May 07, 2019 5:55 pm

the more on the surface "I" is the offspring of wanting... the deeper "I" does not want.

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Tue May 07, 2019 11:03 pm

Hi Hendrick

Excellent, we're off!

Thanks for both replies.

the words I or me right now point to 2 seeming layers: one layer feels more personal, the other one is a nonpersonal feeling, more a kind of being.

Ok great, staying with the layer that feels personal for now:
What does that refer to in direct experience? Please describe in detail – does it have a shape? A size? A quality?

Looking forward to your replies

Love

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Wed May 08, 2019 8:56 am

Hi Pop,

thank you for your reply.

The more "personal" layer seemes to refer to

- a feeling of insecurity in the belly
- rememberances of pictures of my face
- rememberance of a feeling of character traits

But these are themselves thoughts, without a specific shape
It is more that the speed of sequence of these occurances give the impression of being a reality. If I feel into each of them one by one they are experienced as thoughts without own "live":

- insecurity turns into sadness, this turns into energy (a little joy at the bottom)
- picture of face or body is seen as being just a picture
- feeling of character traits are stronger: it is a pressure from belly to chest that "claims" own reality. But it has no specific form. It is a feeling of an occurance could be called "claim of being me" that itself is an object - without specific form.

The feelings concerning character traits have a strong reality effect: they refer to "me" - but when I inquire into the feelings of the "character" they are just felt - and have no reality of their own.

The "me"/ "I" is a sensation in the middle/lower chest without a shape. When I feel into that, the feeling of "me" jumps into the head. When I feel into that it wavers and gets foggy.

There is the thought: there must be an I or me. A conviction that seemes to trigger the feeling in the chest and the head. As if that conviction would "try" to knock out consciousness or hypnotize it. It has a strong momentum.

If I keep up awareness there is warmth in the heart even though there are still fragments of the occurances.

I will go on inquiring this.

Love Hendrik

(PS: hope "my" english is good enough... ok, still this is a feeling of a person.... but without shape, turning into warmth when being inquired into)

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Wed May 08, 2019 4:59 pm

Hi Hendrick!

Thanks for your reply. in excellent English :)

I'm going to zone in on one or two things you said
- a feeling of insecurity in the belly

Ok let's look at this. Remember to look directly and not think about these Qs conceptually.

simply notice the feeling without any label and see if this feeling is felt by anyone, or is happening to anyone?
Investigate if there is actually anything there that can be harmed?
What is it protecting?
What needs to be protected?
What is that feels threatened?

- insecurity turns into sadness, this turns into energy (a little joy at the bottom)

In your direct experience is there anything behind this energy? If so, what?
Is there a difference between "insecurity", "sadness", "energy" in direct experience or is it the same feeling labelled differently?


The feelings concerning character traits have a strong reality effect: they refer to "me"

Do the feelings refer to "me"?
Can feelings refer things or is there simply feeling?
Do feelings think?


I hope you enjoy the investigation Hendrick

Love

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Thu May 09, 2019 8:25 pm

Hi Pop,

wow, that does something... thank you!
simply notice the feeling without any label and see if this feeling is felt by anyone, or is happening to anyone?
It seemes to be "me" who feels the feelings - but in investigation a "me" cannot be found. There are thoughtforms that suggest a "me", but these are passive thoughts, they can be watched.
Even though there is the familiar feeling of being a person - when watched one aspect of feeling after the other there is no active person inside of them, just passive things/better: vibrations that can be watched/felt.

It´s crazy in a way:

- there is that dull feeling of being a body located in the back of the body: when investigated into that, there is just feeling, not even the form of a body can be specificly found - and in trying to find a "me" who feels that, there is another feeling, now in the throat; zoomed into that there is no me either. The one that seemes to decide where to feel seemes to be located in the head region: just another dull feeling, but no me.

Still this consciousness is not so strong: when I loosen the focus, the dream of being a person is felt again.
So best would be, to be aware all the time... that itself is a thought of a "searching person"... that cannot truly be found.

Investigate if there is actually anything there that can be harmed?
There are fast sequences of feelings that suggest ... I don´t know, if they really still suggest of being a person that can be harmed.
When I feel into the sadness that comes with a feeling of relief, it still feels that something is felt and there is something that seemes to feel it. But there is no disconnection between these "two" - they are experienced at the same time - and: the feeling is impersonal and the feelings that suggest an active feeling person are impersonal too. In a way they cannot be devided but are felt at the same time, simultaneously.

What is it protecting?
It is not even protecting something, because it has no will. It is felt and being eaquated to have a dynamic - which it has not. The feeling does not say "ok, I protect Hendrik..." - it looks like a warning sign but it has no inherent warning function or task.
And again: even though there are the familiar feelings of being some person, it is seeing/feeling that happens

What needs to be protected?
Well, when nobody is really there.... there is just resistance that gives fire to the insecurity/fear. But even the resistance is another rising without own will or direction.

What is that feels threatened?
That little animal called Hendrik. But the more I look, the less I find ... the less "I"/"me" seemes to have a "real" face.

In your direct experience is there anything behind this energy? If so, what?
Is there a difference between "insecurity", "sadness", "energy" in direct experience or is it the same feeling labelled differently?
Behind this energy there is ... nothing. Well, nothing graspable.

Before inquiry: The different feelings seemed to be like different frequencies, like different colours.

After inquiry: Wow, that is crazy too and I don´t know if it´s true but in deeper feeling into it, it feels as if different feelings do not have a real difference because they are felt by the same ... space? (never read that so far or it was forgotten). Can that be? No difference? Just the same (!) energy... and behind that: nothing (graspable).

And: while staring on the screen, there was a moment when seeing did not even validate a "space" ... as if seeing does not devide screen and space between the center from where seeing seemes to happen from. Even though I always thought seeing happens from a center, that does not seem to be the final answer either.

Do the feelings refer to "me"?
Can feelings refer things or is there simply feeling?
Do feelings think?
- no, feelings are felt... can I still say that feelings are felt? Are they still feelings? Does feeling as a distinct function occur? I cannot feel that they have a quality like reference to something. Not even to "me".
- it feels like that there are simply feelings... actually: I do not know if can call feelings still feelings... my state has changed by the time I write.
- feelings are like, hm... seemingly dynamic passiveness: they have no own will, maybe like water in a riverbed - with the difference that there is no distinct riverbed to be found.

When I say I write: It feels as If there is a screen in front and windows in the back, but there seemes to be no true difference of location.... Still I is here with a smell of person... when there is no real space there cannot be a person, can it? That´s strange.

I will recap your questions... they definitely work.

Very many thanks to you

Love

Hendrik

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Thu May 09, 2019 11:17 pm

Hi Hendrick!

This is great. You are looking from your direct experience. Well done.

It's crazy in a way:

Sure is!

Again I'll just pick out one or two things.

Still this consciousness is not so strong: when I loosen the focus, the dream of being a person is felt again.


Let go of the idea that there is effort. There isn't. You understand it all; you just shift focus from thinking to directly experiencing. Nothing is hidden. It's a shift in perspective


So best would be, to be aware all the time... that itself is a thought of a "searching person"... that cannot truly be found.


exactly right. you are thinking about reality here. Just look directly at what is.

it still feels that something is felt and there is something that seems to feel it. But there is no disconnection between these "two" - they are experienced at the same time - and: the feeling is impersonal and the feelings that suggest an active feeling person are impersonal too. In a way they cannot be divided but are felt at the same time, simultaneously.

yes you have given the answer to the problem yourself.
What is added to experience that makes it seem like "there is something that seems to feel it"?
What is added that divides these feelings?

it feels as if different feelings do not have a real difference because they are felt by the same ... space?

you don't need the "because...". you are only concerned with direct experience.


I always thought seeing happens from a center, that does not seem to be the final answer either.

Many experience the ‘me’ as coming from a centre.

What I would like you to do is imagine a small apple centred in the head.
Before the apple disappears….

…imagine a canary centred in the head, tweeting away.
Before, the canary flies off (weird huh?)….

…imagine a 'me' centred in the head.
Stay with it…

…imagine it is completely transparent. See straight through it…

…imagine there not seeming to be a 'me' in the head anymore.

Give it a go, see what happens.


Still I is here with a smell of person.


a smell of a person, or of a body, or just smelling?


Much love,

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Sat May 11, 2019 8:37 pm

Hi Pop,

here again. My intention is to answer daily, yesterday meetings till late...

Thank you for your input, it helps a lot :-)
Let go of the idea that there is effort. There isn't. You understand it all; you just shift focus from thinking to directly experiencing. Nothing is hidden. It's a shift in perspective
"Effort" is a feeling to be experienced. No personality.
What is added to experience that makes it seem like "there is something that seems to feel it"?
What is added that divides these feelings?
Added is the notion of a witness. This is supported by the feeling of a center of witnessing in the head, kind of a pressure in the forehead. Even this is a feeling, that can be seen/witnessed - from "outside" of the forehead.

Actually - there is no division of the feelings; they are experienced in that one "space" where (?) experience happens.
you don't need the "because...". you are only concerned with direct experience.
When there is just experience there is no attitude for personality.
Your suggested experiment, center of head:
There was a black space with the flavour of being nothing and not knowing anything.

I repeat the experiment and tell more :-)
a smell of a person, or of a body, or just smelling?
"smell" was ment figurative, like a scent of identification.
Ok, even this is an arising happening - and being watched. Still no person.

There is a change happening since I follow your (?) guidance. It is very helpful.

Much Love

Hendrik

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Sat May 11, 2019 9:59 pm

Hello Hendrick!


No worries, reply when you can. Momentum is good. I think we are doing well.
Remember you can look at your experience all through the day :)


Added is the notion of a witness. This is supported by the feeling of a center of witnessing in the head, kind of a pressure in the forehead. Even this is a feeling, that can be seen/witnessed - from "outside" of the forehead.

There may be a sense that there is a witness. You assume it indicates a witness. It is a feeling. Is there anything behind it?


There was a black space with the flavour of being nothing and not knowing anything.

Great. Look here again. Is it possible not to fabricate anything for a moment, even space, and simply look at what is present right now? Do "you" exist at all?


Good looking!

Love,

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Sun May 12, 2019 8:01 pm

Hi Pop,

today during the day I several times had the feeling of depth in my heart and much more activity than before.

The question, what is behind the witness opened a door: Nothing is behind, the witness seemes a bit illusory. This was the reason for the shift of energy in the heart region. It feels as if there is more openness and freedom.

Then the person who was happy of the transparency in the heart was watched. I remembered as often as possible during the day to apply this recognition to every "personal" seeming occurance: feelings, that are a part of the persona, emotions as anger arose about a situation, fear and so on.
Sometimes I had the feeling of just leaning back into my (? - better the) heart and the stressful emotions began to diminish or transform.

And: I applied this question on the I thought/feeling - it showed me, that there is nothing behind this I thought. It doesn't make any sense, to go deeper and deeper and deeper into this I thought to "find" something because it does not change the quality of what it is - a thought.

This was supplementary helped by the thought in Ilonas book "Liberation unleashed" where she says that thoughts cannot think, they cannot do anything other than appear and disappear.
So they are passive, without own life, so they cannot be a part of a thing called "me".

The same is valid for beliefs, even though there are still some strong beliefs felt, but they are seen as objects not as myself.

To apply the question you asked some days ago, "what does the fear protect" was as well very helpful during the day. Because behind the fear there is nothing. This allowed me to surrender to even strong fear more quickly and let it have its way and disappear.

The experiment:
The apply is followed by the canary, fluttering off after some tweets... then ... pause.
Then I install the "me"-feeling in a transperent way, and letting this go as well.
The peace and depth after the canary has gone is deeper then after the me has gone.

... I will look into that again...

Love

Hendrik

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Sun May 12, 2019 11:12 pm

Hi Hendrick,

Great stuff.

So you see that there is a peaceful quiet "place" which is always available merely by shifting focus away from thinking and to sensation. It is a peace beyond understanding, understanding being stuck in thought.

There is no goal here. I just point to the fact that there is no actual entity self/I/me, and if you genuinely search for one everywhere in your direct experience, you will SEE that it is an illusion created by language and supported by nearly everyone around you. This cannot be given to you; you will have to SEE it for yourself.

In some ways you've seen the illusion mechanism.
Take it inside! Let it really sink in. Absorb the implications!
There is no you.
Is it true?
LOOK!

Love,

Pop

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Hendrik
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby Hendrik » Mon May 13, 2019 8:35 am

Hi Pop,

yes, in a way - it has to be more integrated (says who ? :-) )

I do not want to bore you with stories, just here an example for the good impact of our work:
This morning: massive fears (ok, triggered by a felt threatening situation for my law office in the "outside" that began 2 years agi), but this time accompanied by the thoughts of maybe being ill with an lethal illness.... (body actually is healthy)
showing me that there is something in progress in a good way on deeper levels. Person has to die, it was never there anyway - what a freeing aspect.

I inquired as learned into what does the fear try to protect, what is behind the fear - well, nothing - besides felt occurances in form of other feelings or thoughtforms. All passive, so: no me.

Some (in ways already known) tremor seemes to happen in deeper levels. Even though it needed a little cry to relax, there is the feeling that our work is quite sufficient :-)

I am very happy with that, even though it needs to sink in more.

I will continue to check whether a me can be found... and report to you what happens after the bird/"me" has left :-)

Love

Hendrik

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pop
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Re: calloffthesearch

Postby pop » Mon May 13, 2019 12:22 pm

Hi Hendrick


Thanks for the post and the story / example. Glad you were able to see through it :)

Now might be a good time to look at expectations.

Anytime you feel stuck, come back to expectations, if there is something that you think that should be happening, but it isn't- there is an expectation behind it.
The biggest obstacle for seeing this moment AS IT IS are expectations.
The shoulds and shouldn'ts, wants and don't wants

Realise that nothing is ever happening the way you imagine it would, that life goes on regardless of how you expect it to go. Check if you have control over what is happening and when.

See if you need all those expectations or if it's OK to let them all go.

Some questions to write the answers to:

What do you expect that liberation is going to be like?
What do you want from it?
How do you imagine a liberated human behaves?
What should it be like?
What will it give you, what do you hope for?
What don't you want it to be like?

Just write all this out and examine it.
Your full honesty is the key here, find all expectation and write them down, then look for the hidden expectations.

Acknowledge that these expectations are running in the system.
Accept that expectations are in the way of seeing with fresh eyes, so leave all this behind in order to take a fresh look.

Take a look in your experience right now, is anything really missing?
Looking directly without thought or fabrication or expectation do you exist?

Love

Pop


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