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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:54 pm

Hi Pop,
it's just hilarious :)
Why does someone need to be?
It is hilarious :) It is peculiar that the mind can investigate itself and realise there is no control. I guess the really peculiar bit is that there was the illusion of control in the first place. Upon careful inspection there is no control, just stuff happening. Sometimes attention is so close to that stuff that it seems like the attention is the cause. I pop in and out of directly experiencing that there is no control.
Is there someone investigating this or is investigating happening?
There is no control; there is just investigating happening. It is particularly clear that physical movement happens before intent. Thought is fast, and trickier to catch in the act. But attention can not be controlled. For instance, I'm writing this, but occasionally am distracted. There is no choice in the distraction, or in the eventual returning of attention. The apparent choice comes from a previous intention to write, which wasn't an intention at all, but a thought that ended up dominating. The same process happens during any task that needs extended focus, like reading or meditation. I think I am becoming comfortable with this.
Is there a separate self?
There is personal experience. Only I am privy to what I am experiencing right now.

Thank you,
Eric

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pop
Posts: 171
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:27 pm

Hi Eric

There is personal experience. Only I am privy to what I am experiencing right now.

Tell me what is privy to the experience?

Love

Pop

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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:08 pm

Hi Pop,
what is privy to the experience?
Haha ;) It's not really about awareness, is it. Awareness is just of experience, whatever it happens to be. I is a story told by the mind, weaving together sense perceptions, memories, hopes, fantasies. What gives the impression of something special being privy to the experience is just the integration of the experience into this story, or more the other way around - the whetting of the story with the new experience. The parts of the story are really separate, but mixed up together into a new thought, a storified whole.

Eric

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pop
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:44 pm

Hi Eric

Ok good.

Now forget about all that and just look at your direct experience and tell me where that thing called Eric is.
Bring forth the Eric-ness of your experience and LOOK straight at it. What is there?

Look with fresh eyes at the truth of common everyday experience.
Like a child sees... without any bias.
Liberation is not a thought, a feeling or a state.
It's really so ordinary that we have almost totally missed it.
it is through direct experience that it is seen.
It's not hidden. It's just a shift in perspective.

So there is NO “you”!
What comes up?


Love


Pop

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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:45 pm

Hi Pop,
Now forget about all that and just look at your direct experience and tell me where that thing called Eric is.
Bring forth the Eric-ness of your experience and LOOK straight at it. What is there?
OK. At first blush "Eric" is my personality: in my memories, the people I have known, the things I have done, what I enjoy, what I dislike. But this isn't "me". It changes from day-to-day, year-to-year. It's not constantly present. Say when lost in a moment or in focus meditation, personality is absent, but something is still present. Awareness? There's nothing constant but the now of experience. It's only in reference to memory that there's an apparent continuity. In the moment there's no "Eric"; it takes a thought to bring it back.
So there is NO “you”!
What comes up?
Personality is just a story; not real. Memory is just a story; not real, but it seems quite sensible to not completely discount worldly experience. There is likely an organism, and these are its perceptions and thoughts. There is an integration of these perceptions and thoughts. Right now there is awareness of some of these.

Eric

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pop
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:06 pm

Hi Eric

something is still present.
it seems quite sensible to not completely discount worldly experience. There is likely an organism,

Seeing the truth does not wipe out a sense of aliveness or being.
Experience is always here. We'd be foolish to deny it.
What does the experiencing?
Don't think, just look, can you find an experiencer?
In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?
Is there a seer separate from the seen?
Is there a hearer that hears?


Love


Pop

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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:39 pm

Hi Pop,
Seeing the truth does not wipe out a sense of aliveness or being.
I'm not at all worried about that.
What does the experiencing?
Don't think, just look, can you find an experiencer?
In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?
Is there a seer separate from the seen?
Is there a hearer that hears?
The observer is only there with a "step back" from experience. I guess this is a thought putting direct experience at a slight distance. Leaning back into direct experience there is only the "seen". It's difficult to stay there, with thoughts leading away. But I guess thought can also be a direct experience. A while back I commented that as the "observer" it was clear there was no free will and things just happened. In direct experience this is harder to catch, since the observation/thought distracts from the moment...

I feel like I'm going round in circles...

Thank you, as always,
Eric

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pop
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:06 pm

Hi Eric


I guess this is a thought putting direct experience at a slight distance.


It is definitely a thought. Direct experience cannot be at a distance.


It's difficult to stay there


Don't bother with any thoughts about having to stay there. just look again and again :)
Looking is immediate. It takes no effort. just repeat moment to moment.

I feel like I'm going round in circles...


Ok, stay with this feeling. "YOU" are going around in circles.
Look straight at this feeling of you. What is it?
Allow the frustration. Are "you" frustrated?


as the "observer" it was clear there was no free will and things just happened. In direct experience this is harder to catch, since the observation/thought distracts from the moment...


Direct experience is the moment to moment seamless Experiencing that without a doubt Is.
Who is trying to catch something? Take a moment and tell me is there someone investigating this or is investigating happening?



Love


Pop

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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:45 pm

Hi Pop,

Carefully investigating direct experience can be overwhelming. It's almost like the "thought" separation of the observer smooths things out, makes them less. Close inspection of experience also makes it clearer that experience is generated by the mind. Seeing this directly is weird and a little unsettling at first.

Sitting quietly tonight, it felt almost like something turned "inside out" in the way the "observer" related to sense perceptions. Experience of the perceptions was primary. I can't seem to get it back now.
Look straight at this feeling of you. What is it?
Allow the frustration. Are "you" frustrated?
There are feelings of tension and pressure in the body, and impatience in the mind. This is labelled frustration. There is frustration, but "I" am not frustrated. The feeling of frustration can seem to be examined by an observer, giving space to the intense sensations. Putting the sensations at a distance can help reduce their power - which can otherwise sometimes result in ill-advised actions.

Thinking before acting, stepping back from an immediate emotional response. How are these different from not being in the moment as a separate self?

Thank you!
Eric

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pop
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:01 pm

Hi Eric
The feeling of frustration can seem to be examined by an observer, giving space to the intense sensations. Putting the sensations at a distance can help reduce their power

Ok can you find the space? Describe please
Can you find the distance? Describe please
Can you find the observer? Describe please


Is there fear around the power of sensation? Describe fear


Love :)

Pop

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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:44 pm

Hi Pop,

Paying attention to sense perceptions, it can seem as though attention is needed for the sense, and there is a see-er/hearer/etc. But then a sound surprises, or something unexpected moves, and it is clear that attention isn't needed at all. There is no see-er, only the seen, which is sometimes also carefully attended to. Attention is doing essentially the same thing here as in the illusion of control / free will for thoughts and actions.
the space
The space, distance, and observer are a thought, sometimes associated with a sensation. The trick seems to be in a maintenance of connection to the actual sense perception while not giving it full attention. Something along the lines of attention v awareness I wrote about a while back. There's no fear to speak of.

Eric

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pop
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:11 pm

Hi Eric

Good, ok, try not to be aware for a few moments, get used to this and then look for yourself, the "I" / "Eric"

What is there when you try not to be aware?
Where are "you"?

Love

Pop

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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:52 pm

Hi Pop,
What is there when you try not to be aware?
Where are "you"?
Nowhere... In the moment there's sensation - colour, movement, pitch, texture; or thought - words, a memory, consideration of another thought. "I" am thought that connects some of these together, with an illusion of continuity brought by memory, and an illusion of control brought by the close timing of attention and action.

That feels a little painful to write. It's very funny, but a little painful.

Thank you ;)
Eric

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pop
Posts: 171
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:54 pm

Hi Eric

What is the pain happening to?
What is in pain?

Love

Pop

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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:32 pm

Hi Pop,
What is the pain happening to?
;) nothing at all, it is just happening.

It is completely clear that there is no free will. Things just happen. Letting this flow is amazingly easy, even if situations where the self would have seemed to be critical, such as public speaking on a complex topic. With introspection after being engrossed in an activity, when the realisation of no-free-will surprises "me" it can be truly hilarious, and I burst into giggles, and then giggles at not having a real choice about giggling.

This is great and all, but I'm not sure if that's it, or if there's something else that should happen. Expectations unknown...

Eric


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