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bananaman
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:25 am

Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:24 pm

Hi Pop,
Forget about results and simply look where i point to
sounds like a plan ;)

When something appears, whatever it is, tension, desire, sound, anything, focus on it with laser sharpness.
Observe it before any thoughts about it appear.
Is there an "I" before the thoughts appear, or does it come with the thoughts?
Nothing lasts, so it's quite hard to focus on a single thing appearing. But trying to do this, focusing on whatever is appearing... It's very hard to be present - I keep noticing something and then noticing a quick memory of it. In the glimpses there is no I, just the thing.

Thanks for letting me know you'll be away. Enjoy your absence!

Eric

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bananaman
Posts: 33
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:20 pm

Hi Pop,

I had been noticing apparent intent and control during the day today, and during my ride home tonight I realised that I could just "let go" and ride my bike totally without "intent" from "me". Still totally safe, observant, and in control, but everything just... happening. "I" was "observing". But I'm not sure what to make of this "observer".

"I" can't be anything that can be observed, since anything that is observed has to be something else, right? Tonight I sat and focused on this a bit. There is awareness of all sorts of sensations. I look for what is always present. When things are quite still, the sense of an "observer" is very strong, but I can't find it anywhere...

Eric

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pop
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:09 pm

Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:43 pm

Hi Eric!

Thanks for your answers :)

It's very hard to be present - I keep noticing something and then noticing a quick memory of it. In the glimpses there is no I, just the thing.

Ok so lets look at labels.
Look at the mind as an automatic labelling machine. Look around you now and notice how thoughts arise and label objects and add a story without any effort from you, without you having control over them.
Without paying too much attention to content just sit quietly and observe how this mechanism works.
Something is experienced and then labelled immediately.
There is a gap between the experience and the labelling of it.
The label creates the idea of an "I".
Imagine you had no memory or language... Can you locate "ME" ?

When things are quite still, the sense of an "observer" is very strong, but I can't find it anywhere

Close your eyes after reading this paragraph and find that which is always present.
Feelings of aliveness, aware being-ness, ‘I am’ stay with the feeling.
It feels personal because for all those years you thought that you exist as a separate being.
But is it personal?
Or is it a sense plus labelling of the mind as “me”.

Love

Pop.

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bananaman
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:25 am

Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:29 am

Hi Pop,

Look around you now and notice how thoughts arise and label objects and add a story without any effort from you, without you having control over them.
Without paying too much attention to content just sit quietly and observe how this mechanism works.
Amazing. So many spiralling stories. Some objects are more complex than others. People are especially intricate. Links and connections that just keep building on each other.

The label creates the idea of an "I".
Imagine you had no memory or language... Can you locate "ME" ?
This isn't so clear. Language doesn't seem to be relevant here. Memory on the other hand is key, being needed for stories. I don't think there would be a "me" without a sense of something beside now.

Close your eyes after reading this paragraph and find that which is always present.
Feelings of aliveness, aware being-ness, ‘I am’ stay with the feeling.
It feels personal because for all those years you thought that you exist as a separate being.
But is it personal?
Or is it a sense plus labelling of the mind as “me”.
Wow. This is tricky. The "observer"/"I" keeps shifting. When it seems to come into focus it just becomes a sensation. Is "I" really just a thought label on the top!? Rather than looking inwards, looking at more obvious sensations almost seems more clear (sight, sound, etc) - that which is always present must be there as well, and there is only the sensation. I think I see it, but it doesn't click...


Thank you, as always!

Eric

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pop
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:09 pm

Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:07 pm

Hi Eric :)

Some objects are more complex than others. People are especially intricate. Links and connections that just keep building on each other.

Don't concern yourself with complexity or otherwise, these are just more thoughts about thoughts.

Memory on the other hand is key, being needed for stories. I don't think there would be a "me" without a sense of something beside now.

Perfect. When you are looking at your direct and immediate experience there is no memory.
Therefore you should be able to see the absence of "I" by doing this.
Try it out.


The "observer"/"I" keeps shifting.

Yes! it sure does. Just keep following it and eventually you will see.
you are on track Eric.

When it seems to come into focus it just becomes a sensation.

"seems to" , yes, well does the "I" come into focus or not?


Is "I" really just a thought label on the top!?

You tell me! Just look.


Rather than looking inwards, looking at more obvious sensations almost seems more clear (sight, sound, etc) - that which is always present must be there as well, and there is only the sensation.

"looking inwards" may actually just be thought. Stick with the senses. They are what is happening. That which is always present. If as you say there is only sensation, then where is the "me"? Where is "Eric"? Where is "I"?

I think I see it, but it doesn't click...


Just keep looking. Trust the looking. Don't think about clicking.


Lovely stuff

Pop.

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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:54 am

Hi Pop,

I'm continuing to pay attention to direct experience as much as possible. I'm wondering about the stories. I think I'm beginning to see that "I" am just one of the stories, but most of the stories don't seem to refer to "me", but are just riffs of connected thoughts. Does that make sense?

Thank you for all your guidance!

Eric

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pop
Posts: 126
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:20 am

Hi Eric
Does that make sense?
Yes it does :)

What is happening in this moment?
With your five senses what do you experience?
Sights, sounds, taste, smell, tactile sensations, even thoughts.
Just list what is there. Don't draw conclusions.

Taking one sense then, sound, notice what you're hearing, maybe birdsong or traffic.
Notice the habitual thought "I hear that".
Now just pay attention to how sound happens.
Take your time with it. Are you doing the hearing or does it just happen?

Love

Pop

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pop
Posts: 126
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:33 pm

Hi again!

(bonus track)

I think I'm beginning to see that "I" am just one of the stories, but most of the stories don't seem to refer to "me", but are just riffs of connected thoughts

What is before, after , between, beyond the thoughts and stories?
When these arise and then pass what is still there?


Love

Pop

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pop
Posts: 126
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:13 pm

Hi Eric


How are you?


I'm away for a week from tomorrow, Saturday, until the following Saturday, so i won't be available.

Feel free to post here anyway of you like.

Happy looking!

Love,

Pop

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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:24 am

Hi Pop,

Thank you for your message. I am well. Going through some emotional stuff irl, but all good.
Are you doing the hearing or does it just happen?
I am continuing to look as closely as I can at perceptions, and the apparent observer. There's an interesting shift possible between being as close to the moment as possible, directly in experience, and then being a step removed, observing. The hearing just happens, but it seems habitual to put another layer on top of this, maybe to help analyse or integrate, maybe to separate or protect.

Thanks again, enjoy your week away!

Eric

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pop
Posts: 126
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:34 pm

Hi Eric

I hope the emotional stuff isn't too painful.

There's an interesting shift possible between being as close to the moment as possible, directly in experience, and then being a step removed, observing.

Can you describe the observer to me please?


Love

Pop

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bananaman
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:25 am

Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:30 pm

Hi Pop,

Can you describe the observer to me please?
A self-referential integrator of perceptions, distancing itself from sense perception to allow measured thoughtful response.

It's difficult, but that's a good stab at it.

Is this "observer" "I"? Is this necessarily required for integration and complex thought?

Eric

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pop
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:59 pm

Hello Eric,


If there is difference between thought and the observer?
If so how is that difference known exactly?



Love ,


Pop

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bananaman
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Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:25 am

Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:19 pm

Hi Pop,

If there is difference between thought and the observer?
The "observer" is not a verbal thought, but might be a pre-verbal consideration, so a type of thought I guess. It seems to be a layer between or over the raw perception. It is strongest with vision, whereas touch, smell, and taste are very direct and close. That said, the more I look for it, the harder it is to see... ;)

Eric

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pop
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:09 pm

Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:21 pm

Hi Eric
The "observer" is not a verbal thought, but might be a pre-verbal consideration, so a type of thought I guess
Look for the observer.
Just sit quietly. Let everything just happen.
And find the observer.

When you look for this, what is there?

Love

Pop


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