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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:37 pm

Hi Pop,

When you look for this, what is there?
I sat today letting everything just happen. Perceptions are clear, thoughts and stories riff off the perceptions and each other. When I tried to find the observer it seemed to always resolve to a physical sensation, like a tension in my eyes, often with some emotional discomfort, and then the "observer" wouldn't be there, only the perception.

I've heard it said that when one looks for "I" it is found to be empty, not there. It seems instead that perception grows to fill the space that was the "observer", which seems to be a buffer laid on the original perception. Not quite there yet...

Thank you!

Eric

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pop
Posts: 126
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:56 pm

Hi Eric


ok, you are looking really well.
and then the "observer" wouldn't be there

So where is Eric now? Body? Brain? Mind? Thought? Intention? Feeling? Perception? Attention?

What does the word "I" or "me" point to, here and now?


Love


Pop

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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:27 pm

Hi Pop,
ok, you are looking really well
Thank you :)
What does the word "I" or "me" point to, here and now?
Right now there's perception. Sense or thought. "I" can only be in relation to something else. So there's no I in the moment of a sense perception, and surely "I" would be present all the time... I know it, but I don't see it, if you know what I mean...

Strange things are happening with intention. Things just happen more and more... But not in an uncomfortable way.

Eric

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pop
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:21 pm

Hi Eric

Right now there's perception. Sense or thought. "I" can only be in relation to something else. So there's no I in the moment of a sense

Yes. Exactly. In the moment of looking, in direct experience there is no "I", just perception.

When there is no you in connection with perception, in that moment, where are you? Somewhere else?
Just look. You see but you haven't recognised yet.

(If you feel stuck just report that and we can shift the angle a bit.
But just keep looking the way you are for a day or two. You may be surprised when you see)


Love


Pop

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pop
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:58 am

Hi again Eric

Strange things are happening with intention. Things just happen more and more... But not in an uncomfortable way.


Could you describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?
Can you give examples from experience?


With care and love


Pop

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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:31 pm

Hi Pop,

Could you describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?
Can you give examples from experience?
Simple actions like walking, chewing, or the physical process of talking can sometimes seem like there is control, but they happen just as happily without focus and intent. No "control" is needed.

Actions that require more care, like carefully drawing something with fine motor control, or composing this text, can appear to need intent to happen, but that's just because there are more checkpoints along the way that require close attention. The small bits just happen, and are separated by thoughts.

Thoughts or decisions just pop up, without intent or control. Often thoughts are related to recent thoughts, which can give the illusion of a control of a continuity. An example would be deciding what to eat for lunch. The possible choices appear as thoughts, there's a mental "play acting" visualising what each option would involve, and then a winner emerges. There's no free will in the choice. There's also no free will in the choice to make a choice, which was the appearance of a desire for lunch.

This leads to:
What are you responsible for?
Me as in awareness, nothing. This is unsettling...

Last night I woke in the middle of the night and freaked out a little about this. The idea that awareness (conscious experience) has no control over what is experienced is terrifying. What if my mind/body chooses to do crazy, painful, stupid things? It seems very unfair that awareness, the only thing that is aware, has no say in what it is aware of! This isn't as emotionally direct now as in the middle of the night. I don't think I like it, but I guess there isn't a choice, and never was. Life ain't fair...

But something in me is going through this process, paying attention to how things work. What is that? Is the process of mind/brain deciding to discover it has no control?

Thank you, in confusion,
Eric

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pop
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:13 pm

Hi Eric :)

Sounds like you are making progress.
Fear often comes up at this point. It is in many ways your friend.
It wants to protect you.
Welcome fear and thank it.

We now just need to bring the light of clarity to this experience so as to see past the fear and realise what is true


Me as in awareness, nothing. This is unsettling...

are you awareness?


Last night I woke in the middle of the night and freaked out a little about this. The idea that awareness (conscious experience) has no control over what is experienced is terrifying.

was there ever a controller? Is something being lost, seeing that life is happening without a you in charge?


What if my mind/body chooses to do crazy, painful, stupid things?

is mind body choosing what happens or is that another idea? Is body the experiencer or the experienced?


It seems very unfair that awareness, the only thing that is aware, has no say in what it is aware of!

same way like the sky does not choose what clouds can pass through, all clouds are allowed.


This isn't as emotionally direct now as in the middle of the night. I don't think I like it, but I guess there isn't a choice, and never was. Life ain't fair...

Should life be fair?


Love

Pop

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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:58 pm

Hi Pop,

I'm struggling to find the fear again. I'm not sure if that's because of acceptance or avoidance.
We now just need to bring the light of clarity to this experience so as to see past the fear and realise what is true
Yes.
was there ever a controller? Is something being lost, seeing that life is happening without a you in charge?
I guess it's pretty clear there never was a controller. The only thing lost is the illusion that there was. But illusions can be pretty powerful. I wasn't impressed when I found out about Santa.

is mind body choosing what happens or is that another idea? Is body the experiencer or the experienced?
There is no entity who chooses. That's only a label for a process that takes inputs, processes them, and reacts. Body/mind is what is experienced.

all clouds are allowed.
That's a beautiful way to put it.

Should life be fair?
There is no should ;) It is not.

are you awareness?
Anything that can be experienced can't be me.
I am not anything that can be experienced.
I can not be experienced.
Hmmmmm. I'm running out of room here ;)
Awareness is all there is, but it can't be me.

I think I know this. How can I not see it? :(
Do I have to drop the idea of it being seen by me? Is it simply seen?

Thank you!! :)
Eric

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pop
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:18 pm

Hi Eric

I wasn't impressed when I found out about Santa.
Love this! Laughed out loud.

I think I know this. How can I not see it? :(
Do I have to drop the idea of it being seen by me? Is it simply seen?

Don't worry about the outcome. Just follow the pointers.
I know it can be frustrating, but you will see it.


How does your "i" work?
Where does it reside/ where is it?
Where did it come from?
is it the same "I" as ten years ago, five minutes ago?

Shift attention to seeing what is true about the sense of "you"
Stay focused as much as possible on examining "you-ness"
Look now in your experience, and keep looking, at what "me" or "I" is, and tell me what you see here.
Look with direct one-pointed-ness.


Love

Pop

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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:23 pm

Hi Pop,

How does your "i" work?
Where does it reside/ where is it?
Where did it come from?
is it the same "I" as ten years ago, five minutes ago?
It doesn't seem to work, it just is.
It is somehow near the strongest perception. With my eyes, in muscle tension, in my gut.
There is only now. Memories seem to have the same flavour as now, but since they are remembered now I can't be sure.
Shift attention to seeing what is true about the sense of "you"
Stay focused as much as possible on examining "you-ness"
Look now in your experience, and keep looking, at what "me" or "I" is, and tell me what you see here.
Look with direct one-pointed-ness.
I can focus on a perception. To find an "I-ness" I have to step back from the direct experience, and put it in a wider context. Trying to switch focus to the "I-ness" is ... difficult. There are other sensations there, but switching and not consistent. Maybe this is what is sometimes described as "attention" versus "awareness". When attention is looser there is space in wider awareness for an "I" to be painted. But it's not at all necessary for the perceptions or thoughts.

Thank you, as always,
Eric

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pop
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:50 pm

Hi Eric

Trying to switch focus to the "I-ness" is ... difficult

Why? Look. Why is it difficult to focus on the "I-ness"?
Don''t worry about attention or awareness just stay with your actual direct immediate experience and find "I-ness"
Where is it?

Love


Pop

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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:30 pm

Hi Pop,
Why? Look. Why is it difficult to focus on the "I-ness"?
Well I guess because there is no I, but that doesn't really help ;)
Don''t worry about attention or awareness just stay with your actual direct immediate experience and find "I-ness"
Where is it?
In seeing, for instance. There is the experience of seeing, a rich visual field. No I there in the experience itself. The I seems to be a step back, considering the contents of the experience, thinking about the experience (mostly nonverbal, but even a little verbal). But then when thinking about seeing, there's no I in the thoughts themselves, just recursive thoughts.

Thank you for your patience,
Eric

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pop
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:49 pm

Hi Eric
Thank you for your patience,
This is an absolute pleasure, thank you :)


The I seems to be a step back, considering the contents of the experience, thinking about the experience

Ok good so maybe this is where the illusion resides for you.
If the "I" is here then it should be in control of the thinking. Do YOU decide what to think about?
Does this "I" that is a step back from experience exist?
The mind cannot operate in the immediate moment. As soon as thoughts are noticed, you are no-longer looking in direct experience, and mind has asserted itself.
So when this "I" feeling is felt one step back, try to find it immediately.
What happens to it?
If it disappears what does this mean?


Love

Pop

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bananaman
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Re: Good morning

Postby bananaman » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:27 pm

Hi Pop,

I've been trying to carefully follow intention. Seeing there is no free will - things just happen. It is striking how hilarious this seems, but then I am not sure who is finding it hilarious... Experiencing things unfolding is easier than trying to look for an observer.

Thank you,
Eric

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pop
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Re: Good morning

Postby pop » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:27 pm

Hi Eric, good to hear from you!

but then I am not sure who is finding it hilarious...

Nobody is. it's just hilarious :)
Why does someone need to be?

Experiencing things unfolding is easier than trying to look for an observer.

Is there someone investigating this or is investigating happening?
Is there a separate self?

Love

Pop


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