Still caught up in self

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ob3ron
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Re: Still caught up in self

Postby ob3ron » Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:29 am

Thank you, Jon.

As you're noticing, it's seeing how attention goes to these stories or images. Notice how, whatever story is playing out its never what's actually happening right now.

Yes, somehow the thought-stories seem to have an irresistible attraction even though they're not real -- but the present moment has a beauty to it that no thoughts can compare to. The challenge seems to be to keep remembering that!

That may be an illusion? A thought that 'says' this enough for it to be believed enough for it to seem true.

I can accept that's possible, and trust that this process is heading in the right direction.

We cannot 'get' no self with the mind.

That has been a hard one to accept but it's getting there!

don't force it and actually no real effort is needed. Just a little bit of focus.

The focus is happening. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but it does seem to be growing.

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JonathanR
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Re: Still caught up in self

Postby JonathanR » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:02 am

Hi Oberon
but the present moment has a beauty to it that no thoughts can compare to. The challenge seems to be to keep remembering that!
That's looking at it as if an 'I' has to keep remembering.

You may find that 'remembering' happens without a 'me' having to make it happen. A bit like waking up in the morning,( having noticed the beauty of the present moment compared with thoughts that just narrate and label).

'Forgetting' could also be part of what happens too? Do you see? 'Falling' into believing the thought-stories, the illusion, for a while, only to 'wake up', to notice that this had happened.

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ob3ron
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Re: Still caught up in self

Postby ob3ron » Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:38 am

That's looking at it as if an 'I' has to keep remembering.

Well that's.... a good point. So all that happens, in thought and in reality, is just happening as it unfolds. In one way it seems so obvious, and in another way it's so hard to accept.

You may find that 'remembering' happens without a 'me' having to make it happen.

That is true. It happens first and then the 'me' takes credit for it immediately afterwards.

'Forgetting' could also be part of what happens too? Do you see? 'Falling' into believing the thought-stories, the illusion, for a while, only to 'wake up', to notice that this had happened.

Yes I can see that. And even in forgetting there is still awareness of those thought-stories, which are happening in the present.

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JonathanR
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Re: Still caught up in self

Postby JonathanR » Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:01 am

Hi Oberon
. Yes I can see that. And even in forgetting there is still awareness of those thought-stories, which are happening in the present.
Wow! Yes. That's so true! There is no entity that 'goes' anywhere and yet it is imagined that a 'self' is 'not awake' or whatever. And, as you say, there is awareness of such thought-stories and that is actually happening in the present.

How does it feel to see this?

Is there a self here right now?

Is there a, self anywhere in experience?


Thank you

Jon

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ob3ron
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Re: Still caught up in self

Postby ob3ron » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:27 am

It feels like we are gradually untying all the identifications with self, one by one. But it still feels like some strings are attached.

To be honest it feels like there's a still degree of fakery happening, all of these insights and understandings are coming but they feel like they are more in thought than fully felt or truly seen. I don't know if it just takes time for everything to sink in and become real.

Even now, when "I" type in words to express what "I" am experiencing, there is a rigid hold on that belief that it is "me" doing it. THAT feels real and not fake. And staring into the eyes of that belief, maybe for the first time, also feels real.

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JonathanR
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Re: Still caught up in self

Postby JonathanR » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:17 pm

Hi Oberon
.It feels like we are gradually untying all the identifications with self, one by one. But it still feels like some strings are attached.
Yes, we are. But attached to who? Or more interestingly what?
. To be honest it feels like there's a still degree of fakery happening, all of these insights and understandings are coming but they feel like they are more in thought than fully felt or truly seen.
If they are just thoughts then they are not insights. But 'fullyy felt' could easily be an expectation perpetuated by a thought of the necessity of 'full feeling'.
. Even now, when "I" type in words to express what "I" am experiencing, there is a rigid hold on that belief that it is "me" doing it. THAT feels real and not fake. And staring into the eyes of that belief, maybe for the first time, also feels real.
Perhaps you're determined to have an experience?

Jon

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ob3ron
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Re: Still caught up in self

Postby ob3ron » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:29 pm

Hi Jon,

You may be right. But something has shifted, and it feels much more authentic. There's a new feeling that's more raw, even a little bit wild.

Although it may seem like a step backwards, it feels like "I" have become more wholly "me", and somehow it feels right to feel that experience for a little while, allowing it to integrate before re-examining the illusoriness of "me".

'fully felt' could easily be an expectation perpetuated by a thought of the necessity of 'full feeling'.

I can see that, but I don't think that's what's happening. It feels very real and present.

Feel free to give me a smack if I'm deluding myself (again)!

With thanks and love,
Oberon

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JonathanR
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Re: Still caught up in self

Postby JonathanR » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:04 pm

Hi Oberon.
. You may be right. But something has shifted, and it feels much more authentic. There's a new feeling that's more raw, even a little bit wild.

Although it may seem like a step backwards, it feels like "I" have become more wholly "me", and somehow it feels right to feel that experience for a little while, allowing it to integrate before re-examining the illusoriness of "me
Did something we were discussing bring this on or is it something spontaneous?

Where is that 'me' located?

Love

Jon

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ob3ron
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Re: Still caught up in self

Postby ob3ron » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:21 pm

Hi Jon,

It seems like it was something spontaneous, but also very much related to everything we've been discussing. What I mentioned before about feeling like there was an aspect of sneakiness seems to be gone, and the feeling of resistance, while it's still there, no longer feels like something separate, it now feels like it's part of "me".

I'm well aware that the next step is going to be to examine the illusory nature of this "new me". The last couple of days it has felt like there's been a need to feel out this new experience first.

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JonathanR
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Re: Still caught up in self

Postby JonathanR » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:55 am

Hi,
. I'm well aware that the next step is going to be to examine the illusory nature of this "new me". The last couple of days it has felt like there's been a need to feel out this new experience first.
Resorting to memory of an experience in order to think about it more is probably not a great idea, whatever happened.

Throughout your inquiry it is far better to explore whatever is happening right now. Is that 'self' that you mentioned here right now?

Thanks

Jon

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ob3ron
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Re: Still caught up in self

Postby ob3ron » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:23 am

It is an ongoing experience, rather than a memory of an experience. I don't know if it's possible for consciousness to drop into a deeper place, but that's what it feels like has happened. And there is a new level of dissolving that is happening, where there was resistance before, now feels like some tangled emotions that are gradually untangling.

In between watching that inner experience unfolding, there has now been a return to having moments of peaceful awareness of the present moment. While I don't really have an explanation of what changed, it definitely feels like a good thing. There has also been a return to noticing thoughts about "me" and that they don't really refer to anything real. And somehow it feels more genuine now than before.

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JonathanR
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Re: Still caught up in self

Postby JonathanR » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:12 am

Hi Oberon

Your experience sounds wonderful.
. Although it may seem like a step backwards, it feels like "I" have become more wholly "me",
You used these, words to speak about the experience a few days ago. Can you say more about what you meant by them?

I haven't described your experience as a step backwards (for who/whom/what in any case?). But since youre using the language of ''I' and 'me' its important for me to know what you are meaning by them?

Thank you

Jon

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ob3ron
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Re: Still caught up in self

Postby ob3ron » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:54 am

Hi Jon,

There has been a dichotomy of experience happening. At times there is a meditative awareness and it is clear that there is no self, only thoughts that reference a self. At other times it feels absolutely real that "I am" thinking thoughts and doing actions -- despite not being able to point to what that that "I" actually is.

Looking at the difference between those two states it feels like the first is a relaxed, expansive awareness, and the second state is more of a focused, single-pointed awareness. And lately that has focused into a place that feels more authentic than it had been previously.

Also in the second, "I" state, there feels like there are a lot of old unresolved emotions. And there is a steely resolve in there that is very intense -- I've been trying to gently approach that feeling and understand what it's about. So far all I've got is that it feels like an early choice / determination to not be overly influenced by others. And it feels like it's very rigid, yet is holding back the opportunity to relax into the present moment.

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JonathanR
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Re: Still caught up in self

Postby JonathanR » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:38 am

Hi Oberon
. I've been trying to gently approach that feeling and understand what it's about. So far all I've got is that it feels like an early choice / determination to not be overly influenced by others. And it feels like it's very rigid, yet is holding back the opportunity to relax into the present moment.
Thank you for telling me this. I don't know if you've read it anywhere or not but these inquiries into 'self' can often be accompanied by anxiety or fear, at least until such feelings are addressed?

And its natural enough for protective instincts to kick in if it feels that something is threatened. Could you take a look at the holding back to see if there is any kind of tension or anxiety about this inquiry and let me know?

If there is, try to say how or where these feelings, are experienced?

Many thanks

Jon

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ob3ron
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Re: Still caught up in self

Postby ob3ron » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:13 pm

Hi Jon,

I wouldn't have labelled the feeling as fear but as I've been looking deeper into it I can see that there is fear at the core of it.

As far as how it is experienced, there is a feeling of tension in the chest, jaw and mouth, and a feeling of inner trembling.

I wouldn't actually say that it's any kind of anxiety about this inquiry, rather that it was already there and the inquiry has brought it to the surface. It feels like a protection of a sensitive inner aspect that has not been able to express itself for fear of others' reactions.

It is still in the process of opening up and becoming clearer.

Thank you.

Oberon


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