Round and round

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:20 am

1-I AM MY PAUL, I AM A SELF
2-I AM THIS IMAGE IN THE MIRROR I HAVE A BODU I AM IN THIS BODY OR MIND,
3-THERE IS A CENTER EXPERIENCING LIFE,
4-THERE IS CONTROL, I CAN CONTROL THINGS
5-I HAVE FREE WILL,
6-I CAN DECIDE - CHOOSE THINGS,
7-YESTERDAY, TOMORROW, NOW, PAST FUTURE HISTORY ETC. IS REAL
8-THERE ARE OTHERS AND I AM SEPARATE THEN THEM"
9-THERE IS A FEELING AND IT IS A PROOF OF A SEPERATE I / SELF / ME

Some of these are difficult for me to answer Adil. I have seen through these illusions with your (greatly appreciated) help and by looking in my experience but there is some resistance.

3 and 5 are the questions where I get stuck the most and 7 which we have just recently covered could use some final clarification, was my answer about a memory of a “past” event correct?
“The thought is a distortion of the actual experience. It is a recollection of the labels that my mind had created as a commentary. The memory is subjective and not the absolute truth. So no, I haven’t actually experienced that past.”
Thank you for being honest and telling where you stuck Paul. It gives us opportunity to look more.. Let's start from 3 :)

For this exercise i need you to go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see

if there s a line between you and out there, between you and life itself.
If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside or center of Life? Is there a dividing line between as inside outside and center ?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there really a witness that is watching life happening from a distance or witnessing is a part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening?


Go out, come back and tell me what you found..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:05 am

Thank you for the exercise Adil. I’m afraid I haven’t managed to get out into nature properly yet. I’m going away on holiday for a few days tonight and am busy trying to tie up work/family commitments but I am looking forward to trying this. Especially as my destination has some beautiful landscapes. Tell me, is there anything else I can do in the meantime or should I complete this first.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:03 pm

Thank you for the exercise Adil. I’m afraid I haven’t managed to get out into nature properly yet. I’m going away on holiday for a few days tonight and am busy trying to tie up work/family commitments but I am looking forward to trying this. Especially as my destination has some beautiful landscapes. Tell me, is there anything else I can do in the meantime or should I complete this first.
Hello PAul
Have a good Holiday.
I would like to remind you daily looking is important for your understanding to settle in..Actually it is the only way.. So while you are out try to focus always to the actual experience of things / thoughts.
But you can do that exercise any time you like and you can report me later.
Try to find time ;)
See you
Enjoy.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:05 pm

Hello Adil. I’m sorry for the lack of contact, I’m deliberately trying to stay away from technology for a few days but be assured I am continuing to look and discover. It’s hard to describe but often there is a sense of detachment. Thoughts and emotions don’t seem to have the power they did before.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:08 am

Hello Adil. I’m sorry for the lack of contact, I’m deliberately trying to stay away from technology for a few days but be assured I am continuing to look and discover. It’s hard to describe but often there is a sense of detachment. Thoughts and emotions don’t seem to have the power they did before.
It's ok Paul
When you feel ready please let me know and let's look at 1-2 more fields and give you the final questions..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:50 pm

Hello Adil. I’m back home now. I did the exercise on a beautiful golf course.
if there s a line between you and out there, between you and life itself.
If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside or center of Life? Is there a dividing line between as inside outside and center ?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there really a witness that is watching life happening from a distance or witnessing is a part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening
No there is no line. There is no inside or outside. There are just sensations. The sights and sounds, the smell of the flowers, the warmth of the sun, they flow in and out. Thoughts too come and go. Everything just happening. One thing I did notice Adil is that the focus tends to be on one thing at a time. There is awareness of all these things happening and there is even awareness of the awareness but the noticing seems to move from one thing to another. A sight, a thought, a smell. They don’t seem to overlap or happen together. Not sure if that’s right.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:40 am

Hello Adil. I’m back home now. I did the exercise on a beautiful golf course.
if there s a line between you and out there, between you and life itself.
If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside or center of Life? Is there a dividing line between as inside outside and center ?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there really a witness that is watching life happening from a distance or witnessing is a part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening
No there is no line. There is no inside or outside. There are just sensations. The sights and sounds, the smell of the flowers, the warmth of the sun, they flow in and out. Thoughts too come and go. Everything just happening. One thing I did notice Adil is that the focus tends to be on one thing at a time. There is awareness of all these things happening and there is even awareness of the awareness but the noticing seems to move from one thing to another. A sight, a thought, a smell. They don’t seem to overlap or happen together. Not sure if that’s right.
Very good looking..
Sure paul, single thought appears at a time..
In seeing there are the seen, the seer and the seeing—as one. There are no separate parts.
In hearing—the hearer, the heard and the hearing—as one. There are no separate parts.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:56 am

As you see there is only seeing, hearing, tasting, sensing, smelling. Infact, even these words 'seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, sensing' are just words that comes out of thoughts. In reality, there is just THIS EXPERIENCE. And what is aware of this experience? It is aware of itself.
Thoughts then comes into being separating experience into ‘seeing, hearing, sensing, etc.’. Then thought further divides seeing into seer, seeing and seen (similarly other aspects of experience).

Have you clearly seen that there is “no center” to experiences?

There is JUST EXPERIENCE that is AWARE of ITSELF (some call this consciousness, awareness, bliss, love, one mind, brahman – it doesn’t matter how one wants to call it as long as that which is aware recognizes what it is not).
YOU are that dog, tree, car, mother, father (thought divides REAL YOU into a little 'you' and ‘dog, tree, car, mother, father’). YOU ARE EVERYTHING. Oneness is not a special experience, it is a simple recognition of what experience is “between two thoughts”. An undivided experience before thought starts labeling everything.

So..

What is the experience there Paul ?
Is there any self ? any "I" ? any center rotating life ? anyone behind the wheel ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:39 am

Have you clearly seen that there is “no center” to experiences?
Yes Adil I have seen this.
What is the experience there Paul ?
Is there any self ? any "I" ? any center rotating life ? anyone behind the wheel ?
No there isn’t, “I” is nothing more than a deeply ingrained thought. A story. As is the belief of separation. Everything is in a constant state of flux it’s all happening by itself. The mind commenting and labelling all the time creates the illusion of autonomy but this voice is also just a part of the whole.

I have to say Adil that although I’ve seen this and understand it, the realisation doesn’t stick with me. As I’ve said, I’m becoming less invested in previously held views etc but there is still an awful lot of “I” belief remaining.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:57 pm

there is still an awful lot of “I” belief remaining.
thanks for the honest answer Paul..
We will be going on until last bit of belief is removed don't worry..
:)

Ok then.
I would like to ask from you to scan the body again, look anywhere where is this "i" to be found ?
Sure without any hesitation you will say "it is a belief, it is a thought"..
Once you believed Santa is real yes ? Or superman exists ?
But you have seen that they are imaginary characters right ?
What happened to them when you stopped believing they are real ?
Now you see that self is also imaginary.. It is only a rising and falling thought..
Is thought content real ?
Where is this self ?
Does it really exist ?
What makes you believe in it ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:36 am

Good morning Adil. Again, I have scanned the body and found no I. Looking for the answers to your questions there is a realisation that ”I” is a thought, like Santa or superman. I do get it, but there is no eureka moment. No lasting sense of a breakthrough.
Does it really exist ?
When actually looking I can see, that it doesn’t.
What makes you believe in it ?
It must just be conditioning. Layers and layers of thoughts.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:33 am

Good morning Adil. Again, I have scanned the body and found no I. Looking for the answers to your questions there is a realisation that ”I” is a thought, like Santa or superman. I do get it, but there is no eureka moment. No lasting sense of a breakthrough.
Does it really exist ?
When actually looking I can see, that it doesn’t.
What makes you believe in it ?
It must just be conditioning. Layers and layers of thoughts.
Daily focused attention and looking is the very muck key to settle in this realization Paul..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:35 am

Here are some questions to help determine if there are any areas that may still need further exploring. Just simple and quick answers will do, you don't need to take time over them. Please answer what's true for you right now, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer.
Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual (“I/me”), and never has been?
Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Is there a thinker of thought?
Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?
Is there a self in the body somewhere? Does it have a certain location, or feelings associated with it, or any other attributes?
Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?
Do you notice a difference now, to when you first started this exploration, and if so what are those differences?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:02 am

Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual (“I/me”), and never has been?
Yes
Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?
Yes
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
No
Is there a thinker of thought?
No
Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?
No
Is there a self in the body somewhere? Does it have a certain location, or feelings associated with it, or any other attributes?
No.
Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?
No
Do you notice a difference now, to when you first started this exploration, and if so what are those differences?
Yes. There is a definite change in my attitude. I am much less interested in offering an opinion or defending a position. Things which I would have considered important before seem trivial now. There is a sense of ease that comes with this, hard to describe but I suppose a bit like putting down a heavy weight. There is also conflict though. I’m not sure how to behave around people now.
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Only my above answer.

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:13 am

Further to my last post I just wanted to add.
“I’m” laying in bed. “I’m” comfortable and content. “I” am supposed to be out in the garden digging a pond. There are thoughts fighting for control. Get up! Stay in bed! And now “I” have decided to get up and go and dig. Except, “I” haven’t have I?? And the thoughts that are telling me that I shouldn’t be getting up and that I deserve a lay in and that my back is gonna hurt by the end of the day, are not my own. It is all just experience now. Thoughts/senses/actions. That’s all just happening.
That is right isn’t it Adil??


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