Round and round

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:46 am

Good morning Adil. Sorry for absence. I am away from home this weekend. We’re staying in a little lodge in a forest and a signal is hard to come by. Rest assured, I am looking and practicing everyday. I will answer the questions once I’m back among civilisation.
that's ok PAul..
Enjoy ;)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:16 am

Hello Paul,
I am waiting for your final answers to work with other clients
;)

Thank you
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:54 am

Good morning Adil. I’m sorry for the delay, it was a long drive back yesterday and I was very tired when I got home. I will answer the questions this evening. Apologies again.

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:48 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No. Self only arises as a thought, it cannot be found in direct experience and therefore doesn’t exist. If it is not real now logic dictates that it never was.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now
The separate self is created by thought and language. I guess it starts in early childhood but I have no idea when exactly. The I is believed to be the the thinker of thoughts and/or the physical body and seems to become a centre point through which life is experienced but now I see that this is not the truth and that by looking at direct experience in the “now” there is a wider perspective of which thoughts are just a part.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels good. Realising that thoughts arise by themselves and that it’s possible to let go of the steering wheel, so to speak, has created a sense of liberation. My mind still carries on talking/labelling, as it always did but the thoughts don’t have the same pull as before. They are seen simply as thoughts arising, just another facet of what makes up the moment or “now” Realising this creates a feeling of expansion, a natural oneness with everything.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
There have been a couple of breakthrough moments which I can point to. The first was during an exercise in which you asked me to sit and close my eyes and feel the sensation of the body against the chair. At first it was just “me” in contact with an object. Thoughts dividing and labelling the experience but then, after a time there was a subtle shift towards noticing that the sensations of the body and the thoughts were all arising in awareness which is always present and always now.
The same experience happened often last weekend when I was walking in the forest with my dog. It feels a bit like taking a couple of steps back to take in a view. It’s all happening now and somehow there’s a sense of being a part of it and all of it. Like the boundary between what was considered to be inside and outside disappears (Hopefully that makes sense)
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
I have no idea what makes things happen. One action or event just leads to another. Everything seems to be in a constant state of flux. Decisions and choices are made but if there is no “I” then “I” can’t be making them. Thoughts proceed actions and thoughts arise by themselves so there is no autonomy there, or sometimes a task will be completed purely by conditioning. Driving home from work for example, or making a cup of tea, these things just happen without an “I”
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
I am responsible for nothing. Because I do not exist. Everything is happening and finding it’s level by itself. “I” am responsible x,y or z are just thoughts. Strip the thoughts away and things continue to be taken care of. The I is unnecessary.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:33 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No. Self only arises as a thought, it cannot be found in direct experience and therefore doesn’t exist. If it is not real now logic dictates that it never was.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now
The separate self is created by thought and language. I guess it starts in early childhood but I have no idea when exactly. The I is believed to be the the thinker of thoughts and/or the physical body and seems to become a centre point through which life is experienced but now I see that this is not the truth and that by looking at direct experience in the “now” there is a wider perspective of which thoughts are just a part.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels good. Realising that thoughts arise by themselves and that it’s possible to let go of the steering wheel, so to speak, has created a sense of liberation. My mind still carries on talking/labelling, as it always did but the thoughts don’t have the same pull as before. They are seen simply as thoughts arising, just another facet of what makes up the moment or “now” Realising this creates a feeling of expansion, a natural oneness with everything.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
There have been a couple of breakthrough moments which I can point to. The first was during an exercise in which you asked me to sit and close my eyes and feel the sensation of the body against the chair. At first it was just “me” in contact with an object. Thoughts dividing and labelling the experience but then, after a time there was a subtle shift towards noticing that the sensations of the body and the thoughts were all arising in awareness which is always present and always now.
The same experience happened often last weekend when I was walking in the forest with my dog. It feels a bit like taking a couple of steps back to take in a view. It’s all happening now and somehow there’s a sense of being a part of it and all of it. Like the boundary between what was considered to be inside and outside disappears (Hopefully that makes sense)
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
I have no idea what makes things happen. One action or event just leads to another. Everything seems to be in a constant state of flux. Decisions and choices are made but if there is no “I” then “I” can’t be making them. Thoughts proceed actions and thoughts arise by themselves so there is no autonomy there, or sometimes a task will be completed purely by conditioning. Driving home from work for example, or making a cup of tea, these things just happen without an “I”
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
I am responsible for nothing. Because I do not exist. Everything is happening and finding it’s level by itself. “I” am responsible x,y or z are just thoughts. Strip the thoughts away and things continue to be taken care of. The I is unnecessary.

Thank you for the answers Paul
Lots of them shows that you have seen through illusion of separate self. But i still see that there are 1-2 points you need more clear seeing. And you must see your self. I will ask 1-2 more questions then we will be making this final questions again. Don't worry we have all the time (unexisting time) in the world :) and i like our conversation :)

Let's look..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:19 am

If it is not real now logic dictates that it never was.
What is logic Paul, when you see directly ?
When you say "logic dictates" it is like you don't see but you believe what "logic" says.. i have no idea what logic is..

Look around as you very well said: "it cannot be found in direct experience"

If it is not experienced directly do you need any logic to tell you it does not exist ?

One action or event just leads to another.
These words you say implies a belief in time..But;
Is there any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?


Look!

Sending much love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
Posts: 73
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:31 pm

If it is not experienced directly do you need any logic to tell you it does not exist ?
Looking in direct experience there is no I to be found, therefore “I” does not exist. The next part of the question threw me because “did it ever?” Implies past and that requires thought. I was trying to negate that by using the phrase logic dictates. In the sense that something which is just known now, without a need for enquiry, but I totally get what you are saying Adil, I’m just not sure the best way to word it. Perhaps a simple “no” is sufficient??

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:39 pm

Is there any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
Again, I understand what you are getting at Adil and once more it’s language which is causing my problem. I have seen that one moment does not give way to another it is just a continuous unfolding occurring now. Borders and divisions, such as time are mind made and are themselves a part of now. In another answer I used the words “constant state of flux” perhaps that is a better way to say it?

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:40 pm

Oh and thanks again for your help.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:29 am

If it is not experienced directly do you need any logic to tell you it does not exist ?
Looking in direct experience there is no I to be found, therefore “I” does not exist. The next part of the question threw me because “did it ever?” Implies past and that requires thought. I was trying to negate that by using the phrase logic dictates. In the sense that something which is just known now, without a need for enquiry, but I totally get what you are saying Adil, I’m just not sure the best way to word it. Perhaps a simple “no” is sufficient??
thanks paul
you don't need to reason them. Reason looks like a belief of cause and effect.
As you said: "No. Self only arises as a thought, it cannot be found in direct experience" and sure anywhere any shape cannot be found.

Again, I understand what you are getting at Adil and once more it’s language which is causing my problem. I have seen that one moment does not give way to another it is just a continuous unfolding occurring now. Borders and divisions, such as time are mind made and are themselves a part of now. In another answer I used the words “constant state of flux” perhaps that is a better way to say it?
Re: Round and round
Post by Young » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:31 pm
If it is not experienced directly do you need any logic to tell you it does not exist ?
Looking in direct experience there is no I to be found, therefore “I” does not exist. The next part of the question threw me because “did it ever?” Implies past and that requires thought. I was trying to negate that by using the phrase logic dictates. In the sense that something which is just known now, without a need for enquiry, but I totally get what you are saying Adil, I’m just not sure the best way to word it. Perhaps a simple “no” is sufficient??
ı understand. Language is not capable of describing things. and most of the time it is hard to explain what is seen or experienced. sure a simple "no" is sufficant but a simple explanation is needed for us to see if we missed something..


Now for the last time i send you the final questions then i let my colleagues to take a look at them.

Thank you for your dedicated looking.

Sending much love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:30 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:41 am

Paul ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:15 am

Hey Paul,
Please don't forget to answer your final questions.
Thank you
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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