Round and round

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:35 pm

Hello Adil. Yes I am looking everyday. I have completed the exercises and had some things to tell you but for some reason I haven’t been able to log on to the forum. I was trying yesterday and again today but the page would not load at all. Anyway, it’s working now but I’m very tired. Tomorrow I will explain what I found.

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:12 am

Good morning Adi. So, on Sunday I practised the exercise on and off throughout the entire day. During the morning I went for a long walk in the forest with my dog. Sights, sounds, smells were all present, as were feelings, mostly of contentment but sometimes frustration (my dog is very disobedient) Then in the afternoon, I went with my family into London to watch a show. This was obviously a very stimulating experience and the contrast between morning and afternoon created a good experiment.
Watching my thoughts I became aware of a few things, firstly that the labelling which accompanies the seeing/hearing etc often runs away. It is not just “tree” “bird” “sun.” The thought names and analyses, wonders and wanders and all the while the things which are being picked up by the senses are hidden behind it. This realisation then created another thought, “thought seems to take over everything” which, at first felt insightful like I was reaching a conclusion but was seen through as just another thought, a subtler type which implicates “I”
All day this happened, “I prefer the forest to the city” or “I wouldn’t want to commute to London every day” they arise as labels, “Train” “Crowd” and they quickly entwine to become a story which stimulates emotions and then the actual experience is of being lost in that story.
Something else which I became aware of was that hearing is happening, seeing is happening thinking is happening. I know you have said this to me many times and I always understood but whilst really looking at it during the course of Sunday it really felt like an absence of I. Sensing, feeling, thinking we’re all occurring and “I” didn’t have anything to do with it. Even the frustration (as my dog ignored my call, or when a vendor wanted £7 for 2 diet cokes) came up in experience and then subsided. It all occurred here and now and none of it mattered and that felt perfectly fine.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:56 am

Beautiful..
Thank you Paul, it was so nice to read your observations..
Yes as you say it is thought within thought..When thought is the experience everything is thought.
when sound is the experience (listening to music) everything is the sound.
And they are all self aware...
Something else which I became aware of was that hearing is happening, seeing is happening thinking is happening. I know you have said this to me many times and I always understood but whilst really looking at it during the course of Sunday it really felt like an absence of I.
:)
That's good that you realized your self.If you learned this it could be a concept to believe or disbelieve so now it is your experience. you touch and you see ;)
It all occurred here and now and none of it mattered and that felt perfectly fine.
So good to hear this :)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:01 am

So Paul,

Let's make pinpoint checking,

Is there anything there to be dropped ? Is there any "i" me" self" to drop ?

Do you have any control on anything ?


you said before;
it seems that the I cannot rest. It doesn’t know it’s just a label and that it is powerless.
is there any autonomous entity which can rest or be powerful or powerless ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:27 pm

Is there anything there to be dropped ? Is there any "i" me" self" to drop ?
No Adil there is no I to drop. There is just awareness. Everything happens spontaneously.
Do you have any control on anything ?
No. The control is an illusion. The I that makes choices only exists in thought. It is a component of what is being experienced but it cannot direct the experience.
is there any autonomous entity which can rest or be powerful or powerless ?
No there isn’t. What I was trying to get at was the I thought which won’t rest. It attaches itself implicitly to nearly all thoughts. Apologies Adil, sometimes when my mind gets noisy the answers become a little incoherent.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:37 am

Is there anything there to be dropped ? Is there any "i" me" self" to drop ?
No Adil there is no I to drop. There is just awareness. Everything happens spontaneously.
Sure.
Thank you
Do you have any control on anything ?
No. The control is an illusion. The I that makes choices only exists in thought. It is a component of what is being experienced but it cannot direct the experience.
Sure it is an illusion.
And thought content is not real.

is there any autonomous entity which can rest or be powerful or powerless ?
No there isn’t. What I was trying to get at was the I thought which won’t rest. It attaches itself implicitly to nearly all thoughts. Apologies Adil, sometimes when my mind gets noisy the answers become a little incoherent.
Thats ok Paul, no need for apologies :)
I see that you have realized but for the sake of answers to the final questions we must be direct and clear and i see that you are clear.
So let's give you the final questions again if you are ready..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:57 am

Good morning Adil. Yes let’s go for the final questions.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:29 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:58 am

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No. No self can be found in direct experience and therefore doesn’t exist. If it is not real now logic dictates that it never was.
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now
The separate self is created by thought and language. I guess it starts in early childhood but I have no idea when exactly. The I is believed to be the the thinker of thoughts and/or the physical body and seems to become a centre point through which life is experienced.
How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels good. My default state is still one that is lost in thought but there are many times throughout the day now when an awareness arises and everything is seen clearly. When this occurs there is a feeling of expansion, a natural oneness with everything.
What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

There have been a couple of breakthrough moments which I can point to. The first was during an exercise in which you asked me to sit and close my eyes and feel the sensation of the body against the chair. At first it was just “me” in contact with an object. Thoughts dividing and labelling the experience but then, after a time there was a subtle shift towards noticing that the sensations of the body and the thoughts were all arising in awareness which is always present and always now.
The same experience happened often last weekend when I was walking in the forest with my dog. It feels a bit like taking a couple of steps back to take in a view. It’s all happening now and somehow there’s a sense of being a part of it and all of it. (Hopefully that makes sense)

The next questions I will come to shortly Adil, once I’m home from work.

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:50 pm

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
This is one of those questions which I have some trouble with. Answers don’t come naturally and I find my mind starts kicking in trying to explain things. Truth is I have no idea what makes things happen. Decisions and choices are made but if there is no “I” then “I” can’t be making them. Thoughts proceed actions and thoughts arise by themselves so there is no autonomy there, or sometimes I am lost in thought and yet the task I’m undertaking gets completed so again, an I is absent from any “doing”. If that is insufficient as an answer I can try and refine it Adil but I may need some pointers.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
This again is one of those questions which can trip me up. I am a husband and a father and a self employed businessman. All of which appear to need my stewardship. At times I can see these as labels and that in truth I am responsible for nothing. Because I do not exist. Everything is happening and finding it’s level by itself and my behaviour towards these things has definitely changed. There is less tension, less trying to steer things towards a perceived goal but this is one of the places where a “me” seems to hang on. A walk in the forest, enjoying the sights/sounds/smells, thoughts of I and control are clearly seen as such. When faced with a work deadline the thoughts swirl so violently it is harder not to identify with them. Tomorrow morning, for example, work will start earlier than normal because business is really good at this time. For a time up until writing this “I” have been lost in thought trying to work out the best way to organise my time, which customer should be catered for first etc and the illusion of responsibility has weighed heavy. Now as I type this that weight has disappeared. Tomorrow, the work will get done, or it won’t. Either way it doesn’t really matter. Not really.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:30 am

Thank you for the answers Paul :)
Before we present our dialogue to other guide friends to check we must be crystal clear on things.
I'll focus the areas that looks not clear and then when i send you back final questions later again and you can copy paste other parts again. ;)


So let's look more...
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

This is one of those questions which I have some trouble with. Answers don’t come naturally and I find my mind starts kicking in trying to explain things. Truth is I have no idea what makes things happen. Decisions and choices are made but if there is no “I” then “I” can’t be making them. Thoughts proceed actions and thoughts arise by themselves so there is no autonomy there, or sometimes I am lost in thought and yet the task I’m undertaking gets completed so again, an I is absent from any “doing”. If that is insufficient as an answer I can try and refine it Adil but I may need some pointers.

Sure it is not knowable how things happen. They just happen. It just is.
And sure decisions happen choices happen with no doer. Walking is happening, talking is happening, choosing new phone to buy is happening due to given situations and conditioned thoughts appears like making a choice.
No need for deeper thinking here.
You see this?
Plain and simple.
You can be sure what you directly see!
IF you saw a doer decider free will or control you would say this. But you looked and could not find any of these.
So you are right. "thoughts arise by themselves so there is no autonomy there"
Decisions and choices are made but there is no one making them"
:) Free fall. Life is lifing :)


What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

This again is one of those questions which can trip me up. I am a husband and a father and a self employed businessman. All of which appear to need my stewardship. At times I can see these as labels and that in truth I am responsible for nothing. Because I do not exist. Everything is happening and finding it’s level by itself and my behaviour towards these things has definitely changed. There is less tension, less trying to steer things towards a perceived goal but this is one of the places where a “me” seems to hang on. A walk in the forest, enjoying the sights/sounds/smells, thoughts of I and control are clearly seen as such. When faced with a work deadline the thoughts swirl so violently it is harder not to identify with them. Tomorrow morning, for example, work will start earlier than normal because business is really good at this time. For a time up until writing this “I” have been lost in thought trying to work out the best way to organise my time, which customer should be catered for first etc and the illusion of responsibility has weighed heavy. Now as I type this that weight has disappeared. Tomorrow, the work will get done, or it won’t. Either way it doesn’t really matter. Not really.
Thank you for your honest reply Paul. :)

Ok.
I am a husband and a father and a self employed businessman.
Nice story, nice labels.
You are none of these things but i get your point of sharing information but i needed to correct again.

For a time up until writing this “I” have been lost in thought
Getting lost in thought happens..
Coming to present moment happens.
IS there and "i" doing anything ?

All of which appear to need my stewardship. At times I can see these as labels and that in truth I am responsible for nothing. Because I do not exist.
Even if you go on believing that "you" need to do something about these or drop the control belief these will be done on its own accord. Conditioning will work, thoughts will arise, needed things will be done!
Is there anyone responsible for these ?

as you said well "I can see these as labels and that in truth I am responsible for nothing. Because I do not exist"
All conditioning will work and serve on its own accord in a flow..

Tension will appear, caring, concerning will appear, what must be done will be done

Where is a "you" responsible for these ?

Is there anything called responsibility in the flow of life ?

Is a tree responsible of growing leaves ?
Is the sun responsible to shine
Or it just happens ?


Either way it doesn’t really matter. Not really.
Sure my dear Paul.
It's life appearing as it is.



Look!

Sending much love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:44 pm

IS there and "i" doing anything ?

No
Even if you go on believing that "you" need to do something about these or drop the control belief these will be done on its own accord. Conditioning will work, thoughts will arise, needed things will be done!
Is there anyone responsible for these ?
No, I can see that there is no one to take responsibility and I’m glad that you mentioned conditioning because I think that’s where I was getting stuck. That’s an important distinction. The situation is handled by conditioning not by “me”
Is there anything called responsibility in the flow of life ?
No, for true responsibility I would have to have power over an outcome and that would only arise as a thought.
Is a tree responsible of growing leaves ?
Is the sun responsible to shine
Or it just happens ?
It just happens

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:02 am

IS there and "i" doing anything ?

No
Even if you go on believing that "you" need to do something about these or drop the control belief these will be done on its own accord. Conditioning will work, thoughts will arise, needed things will be done!
Is there anyone responsible for these ?
No, I can see that there is no one to take responsibility and I’m glad that you mentioned conditioning because I think that’s where I was getting stuck. That’s an important distinction. The situation is handled by conditioning not by “me”
Is there anything called responsibility in the flow of life ?
No, for true responsibility I would have to have power over an outcome and that would only arise as a thought.
Is a tree responsible of growing leaves ?
Is the sun responsible to shine
Or it just happens ?
It just happens
Thank you for your good looking Paul
Please check all questions and your answers and tell me if anything is not clear ?

Then i'll again send you the questions to write again more clear the fields that we looked.
You can copy paste other ones.

Thank you
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:14 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:54 am

Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:41 am

Good morning Adil. Sorry for absence. I am away from home this weekend. We’re staying in a little lodge in a forest and a signal is hard to come by. Rest assured, I am looking and practicing everyday. I will answer the questions once I’m back among civilisation.


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