Round and round

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:35 am

Well done!
Thanks for the answers Paul.
Yes. There is a definite change in my attitude. I am much less interested in offering an opinion or defending a position. Things which I would have considered important before seem trivial now. There is a sense of ease that comes with this, hard to describe but I suppose a bit like putting down a heavy weight. There is also conflict though. I’m not sure how to behave around people now.

Behaving or misbehaving will happen. They have nothing to do with a "you".
Actually it does not make so much difference how you behave. Which thought can you choose ? So which action is chosen ?
They all appear it self automaticly.
All is good. All is well. just enjoy the show, your conditioning will work for you like a puppet without a puppetmaster which is called life :)
That's ok
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:44 am

Further to my last post I just wanted to add.
“I’m” laying in bed. “I’m” comfortable and content. “I” am supposed to be out in the garden digging a pond. There are thoughts fighting for control. Get up! Stay in bed! And now “I” have decided to get up and go and dig. Except, “I” haven’t have I?? And the thoughts that are telling me that I shouldn’t be getting up and that I deserve a lay in and that my back is gonna hurt by the end of the day, are not my own. It is all just experience now. Thoughts/senses/actions. That’s all just happening.
That is right isn’t it Adil??
Sure that's all happening dear Paul and thoughts are not telling "you". The are not happening TO A CENTER.
There is the experience and it is self aware.
Actually decision of getting up from the bed is a good experiement for this ;)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:50 am

Can you see a "self" making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from?
What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:25 pm

Can you see a "self" making you leave the bed?
No.
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from?
What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?
The thought commands the body, it arises and the action follows. I can see that. A thought says to get up, another thought says stay in bed. This is the illusion of choice but neither thought was authored by a me.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:04 am

ok Paul,
Can you explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:49 pm

Can you explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience ?
The illusion of a separate self is the belief that “I” am what is within my skin. The point from which life is experienced. A doer of deeds, a thinker of thoughts, an observer who is apart from what is observed. “I” is built by layer upon layer of labels and is constantly being refined. I have no idea when it starts, I guess a character starts to emerge when we first begin communicating with others.
I don’t know what else to say Adil.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:46 am

Can you explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience ?
The illusion of a separate self is the belief that “I” am what is within my skin. The point from which life is experienced. A doer of deeds, a thinker of thoughts, an observer who is apart from what is observed. “I” is built by layer upon layer of labels and is constantly being refined. I have no idea when it starts, I guess a character starts to emerge when we first begin communicating with others.
I don’t know what else to say Adil.
Yes it is a belief. A wrong sense of ownership of life..
There is no one experiencing life, experience is owned by a thought and claims that it is separate from the experience.

Dear Paul,
If you don't have more questions i would like to give you the final questions..
ok ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:14 pm

Thank you Adil, I find it hard to answer these questions sometimes without going into thought and I know that’s not what’s called for so I’m sorry if my answers lack detail.

One last question, as part of the character of me there are preferences. Certain foods, types of music, comedy etc. Are those things natural or is it just filtered through my experience and separated through thought??

I can try and rephrase that if it doesn’t make sense.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:24 pm

Thank you Adil, I find it hard to answer these questions sometimes without going into thought and I know that’s not what’s called for so I’m sorry if my answers lack detail.

One last question, as part of the character of me there are preferences. Certain foods, types of music, comedy etc. Are those things natural or is it just filtered through my experience and separated through thought??

I can try and rephrase that if it doesn’t make sense.
Please rephrase Paul for me to understand clearly.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:49 pm

So, the illusion of me as an individual has a catalogue of likes and dislikes. Those preferences (types of music, flavours of food) are a large part of the identity but how are they decided. I’m looking and I don’t see that they can be a product of thought. “I” like kiwis not grapefruit, “I” like rock music but not classical. Without the I (which is mind made) those preferences still exist. So, are they a natural phenomenon??

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:46 am

So, the illusion of me as an individual has a catalogue of likes and dislikes. Those preferences (types of music, flavours of food) are a large part of the identity but how are they decided. I’m looking and I don’t see that they can be a product of thought. “I” like kiwis not grapefruit, “I” like rock music but not classical. Without the I (which is mind made) those preferences still exist. So, are they a natural phenomenon??
What can an illusion have Paul ?
"You" is a thought, an idea!

What can a thought do ?

Choices - decisions - like - dislike may happen due to conditioning.

But what do they have to do with a "you" ?

What is the difference between deciding to listen classic music or choosing cherry to eat and / sunflowers turning to sun ?

Isn't it automatic ?

IS there someone deciding ? If no what is the point of thinking "how and why they happen ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:49 am

I’m looking and I don’t see that they can be a product of thought. “I” like kiwis not grapefruit, “I” like rock music but not classical. Without the I (which is mind made) those preferences still exist. So, are they a natural phenomenon??
What is it "i like kiwis" more then a thought ?
Is it smell ?
Without the belief of a separate self what's wrong for programming to go on playing..
I don't understand what you mean by saying "natural" but if it means isn't it ok, i'd say sure it is ok.
Isn't it ok for cat to meouw, bird to fly, sun to shine ?

:)
Sending much love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:49 pm

So what you are saying is that firstly, the sensation of taste is just that, a taste and then labelling, pleasant/unpleasant is just thought which claims the experience, categorises it, and fits it in the story. Secondly, that preferences are created by conditioning and lastly, none of it matters anyway.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:18 pm

So what you are saying is that firstly, the sensation of taste is just that, a taste and then labelling, pleasant/unpleasant is just thought which claims the experience, categorises it, and fits it in the story. Secondly, that preferences are created by conditioning and lastly, none of it matters anyway.
I don't say anything.
This is your definition which is also ok. Specially your last sentence.."None of it matters anyway"
:)

For me it is so simple. There is only one definition..
"It just is."

But can you answer my blue marked pointers also ?

Thank you PAul,
I see that you are getting more clear on this.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:55 pm

What can an illusion have Paul ?
"You" is a thought, an idea!
An illusion cannot have anything

What can a thought do ?
Nothing. Appear and disappear
Choices - decisions - like - dislike may happen due to conditioning.

But what do they have to do with a "you" ?
Nothing to do with a “me”
What is the difference between deciding to listen classic music or choosing cherry to eat and / sunflowers turning to sun ?
There is no difference. “It just is”
Isn't it automatic ?
Yes it is. Thoughts arise and make this seem complicated but when my mind is still I understand.

IS there someone deciding ? If no what is the point of thinking "how and why they happen ?
There is no point, it’s just the mind I jumping around


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