Round and round

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Young
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Round and round

Postby Young » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:56 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the “self” as people know or believe it to be is a construct of our mind. The self and the separation that it implies is illusory.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking to learn essentially or perhaps unlearn. I’m afraid I find this very difficult to put into words and the fact that the website keeps experiencing errors is making it harder to get it written down quickly but “I” believe there is an intelligence which is constant and accessible and if we can get beyond mind we can connect with it. I’m looking to explore possibilities

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have no expectations at all. I suppose I would like to achieve some sort of clarity but what that is or how I’d expect it to be brought about is not clear. Perhaps I’d like someone who can point me in the direction of a truth that I can understand or feel.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have no real practice other than to watch my thoughts and opinions in day to day life. I like to listen to spiritual teachers and read accounts etc but I have no formal training

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:13 am

Hello "Young "
My name is Adil and i am a guide here.

We can start the journey if it is okay for you.

If you feel ready send me a message and tell me how would you like me to call you, is it "Young"?

Sending much love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:31 pm

Hi Adil and thanks for your response. I am ready to begin. My name is Paul.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:20 am

Hello Paul,
Before we start i would like to share some tips to make our
dialogue smooth and effective:

1. Please write as much as you can; I would advise you to
write at least once a day, in order to keep it fresh and buid a momentum.

2. Our main focus here is on seeing through the illusion of
what we call "I," "me," or "self." Please set aside all the teachings
you've learned from books, retreats, youtube, and so on, for the sake
of not bringing bias to what we'll do during our conversation.

3. Process will be mostly answering my questions, its best efficiant if you may answer them one
by one..Please be always 100% honest with your answers
Don't choose the "right." answer, from "what comes up" There's no one here to judge or critisise.
If you are stuck with any issue, we can always take a close look at it.

4-set aside all other spiritually related materials (books, videos etc.) so that you can completely focus on your own direct experience.

5-Here's a link that shows how to use the quote function: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ[/

6- I would suggest you read "What Liberation Unleashed is not" from this link http://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

If all ok let's start..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:22 am

Let's start with expectations

Can you tell me more about expectations ?

What do you think will happen when you realize that there is no separate self ?

And can you tell me what comes when i say

THERE IS NO YOU! THERE NEVER WAS AND NEVER WILL BE! IN ANY FORM! EVER!

Please write what comes..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:53 pm

Hi Adil and thanks again for your guidance.
What do you think will happen when you realize that there is no separate self ?


I think it would be quite turbulent emotionally. My sense of self is pretty well rooted, so the prospect of having it shown to be a phantom is a little frightening, but at the same time I guess there must be some gratification. A feeling of release perhaps??
And can you tell me what comes when i say

THERE IS NO YOU! THERE NEVER WAS AND NEVER WILL BE! IN ANY FORM! EVER!

Reading those words creates confusion. I can understand the sentence of course but it doesn’t seem to scan. I feel quite uncomfortable when trying to consider it as a possibility and my mind seems to shut down. Reading and re-reading it doesn’t bring any clarity, in fact I begin to feel physically agitated.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:46 am

Hi Adil and thanks again for your guidance.
What do you think will happen when you realize that there is no separate self ?


I think it would be quite turbulent emotionally. My sense of self is pretty well rooted, so the prospect of having it shown to be a phantom is a little frightening, but at the same time I guess there must be some gratification. A feeling of release perhaps??
And can you tell me what comes when i say

THERE IS NO YOU! THERE NEVER WAS AND NEVER WILL BE! IN ANY FORM! EVER!

Reading those words creates confusion. I can understand the sentence of course but it doesn’t seem to scan. I feel quite uncomfortable when trying to consider it as a possibility and my mind seems to shut down. Reading and re-reading it doesn’t bring any clarity, in fact I begin to feel physically agitated.
Thank you for the answers Paul..
It is good that you don't have big expectations. Because the expectations are future bound and there has never been a separate self, so life goes on as life always has. It is only thought that suggests life needs to improve and that there are good and bad things in life. There is no one/no thing controlling how life unfolds as life unfolds spontaneously from moment to moment.
. I can understand the sentence of course but it doesn’t seem to scan. I feel quite uncomfortable when trying to consider it as a possibility and my mind seems to shut down. Reading and re-reading it doesn’t bring any clarity, in fact I begin to feel physically agitated.
That's ok. We will be looking to all fields to find this self (If there is any) and you will see your own that no self to be found.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:48 am

Here in liberation unleashed we will be using term "looking" and direct/actual experience often!
LOOKING is not done by thinking. It is plain looking.

The term ‘actual experience or direct experience is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...
so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now –
It is the raw experience of direct experiences colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. not the content of thought.
The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

Let's stay focused in these direct experiences and look;

Where does the finger go when you say "I" "me" ?
And can you look and see what is ACTUALLY there ?



Sending much love..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:04 pm

Where does the finger go when you say "I" "me" ?
And can you look and see what is ACTUALLY there ?
Hi Adil. I’m sorry I’m not entirely sure what that means. I’m reading it like “what do I point to when I say I?” If I’m understanding it correctly then I point to the body, specifically the chest. When looking I become aware that there is looking happening but not much else. Again, I feel agitated but I don’t know if it’s a result of the looking itself or if it’s caused by the struggle to put the experience into words. I will continue to look.

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:55 am

Good morning Adil. So, looking again and it’s much the same. Thoughts arise, initially the actual word “I” (strangely) then images of me through various stages of my life. Ignoring those images and attempting to look deeper I find nothing. There is an awareness that there is looking happening, an ability to focus attention but it’s not strong. What is experienced is mostly emptiness. In truth I find it quite difficult to search for long. Thoughts continuously cloud the process and I start to get fidgety. The “emptiness” is not unpleasant itself but there is something jarring about the whole process which I can’t quite describe. It feels almost like the “I” that I’ve considered myself to be wants to claim the ownership of the searching and it also feels unnatural to deny it. Sorry if that’s rambling Adil, hopefully you’ll see some sense in it.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:52 am

Where does the finger go when you say "I" "me" ?
And can you look and see what is ACTUALLY there ?
Hi Adil. I’m sorry I’m not entirely sure what that means. I’m reading it like “what do I point to when I say I?” If I’m understanding it correctly then I point to the body, specifically the chest. When looking I become aware that there is looking happening but not much else. Again, I feel agitated but I don’t know if it’s a result of the looking itself or if it’s caused by the struggle to put the experience into words. I will continue to look.
It is ok Paul. Just relax. It is so very easy.

Yes i meant simply where does your index finger show when you say "i" "me"

Yes it is usually "chest" and we will LOOK and see what is actually there ..
Don't think.

Is there any thing else there than a "chest" ?
Can you locate any self there or is it only skin and bone ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:55 am

Good morning Adil. So, looking again and it’s much the same. Thoughts arise, initially the actual word “I” (strangely) then images of me through various stages of my life. Ignoring those images and attempting to look deeper I find nothing. There is an awareness that there is looking happening, an ability to focus attention but it’s not strong. What is experienced is mostly emptiness. In truth I find it quite difficult to search for long. Thoughts continuously cloud the process and I start to get fidgety. The “emptiness” is not unpleasant itself but there is something jarring about the whole process which I can’t quite describe. It feels almost like the “I” that I’ve considered myself to be wants to claim the ownership of the searching and it also feels unnatural to deny it. Sorry if that’s rambling Adil, hopefully you’ll see some sense in it.
These are thinking Paul.
You're thinking but it is ok.
Just try to stay with the questions (pointers) that is send you all will be ok..
Enlightenment is nothing more than seeing that self is an illusion. No angels, no magic wand erasing all your troubles, no people around you seeing a halo around your head and respecting you and all that, as you rightly observed
It is so simple. When you really look and see that you are not there, just life living of its own accord, you will laugh.


Sending much love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Young
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Re: Round and round

Postby Young » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Hello Adil and thanks for the previous message. I appreciate your support.
Is there any thing else there than a "chest" ?
Can you locate any self there or is it only skin and bone ?
The answer is no. I can’t find any self there.

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:20 am

Hello Adil and thanks for the previous message. I appreciate your support.
Is there any thing else there than a "chest" ?
Can you locate any self there or is it only skin and bone ?
The answer is no. I can’t find any self there.
Yes all you can actually find there is color+sensation.
There is no actual "i" me" or self in our out of the body..

Let's go on looking..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Round and round

Postby adilerten » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:33 am

Find an apple orange or some fruit and put somewhere you can see. And LOOK!

Let's take apple as an example,

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying,

"I'm looking at an apple." What is known for sure?

Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Now touch smell and taste the apple;

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known color labelled ‘apple’ is known sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?
Can you find an actual “I” in the word/thought/label “I”?


Sending much love
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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