understanding but not seeing

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MichaelD
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Re: understanding but not seeing

Postby MichaelD » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:36 pm

Hi Cloudrift,

This emotional response then this triggers thoughts about how to fix / mitigate / deal with that. I guess this is the control you speak of.
Yes. If you notice thoughts also trigger emotions, reactions, too. an obvious example is anxiety.

See if you can see that actions are occuring; first one way and then the other (due to the conflict), and then your 'self' the thought construct then argues / rationalises back and forth depending which current is in operation.
Yes I can see this happening. Or am I just understanding it but not seeing it? There is still a sense of I am someone real and this person is feeling happy / sad etc etc.
Great that you see that this is happening.
"I" seem to be attached firmly to each of these things as they come up. Which of course is true because "I" is only those things - it is not a seperate coherent entity.
EXACTLY - just thoughts (wisps of nothingness) attached as labels and then elaborqted into narrative.
I don't really know how to get past the rational understanding of this into seeing it. Everything still seems unchanged. Just I will keep looking I guess?

Yes, keep looking and noticing. You coulsd re-read our conversation, that might help the penny drop / realization.

You could read a few threads from Gateless Gatecrashers.

Hang in there!

Michael

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cloudrift
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Re: understanding but not seeing

Postby cloudrift » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:48 am

Yes, keep looking and noticing. You coulsd re-read our conversation, that might help the penny drop / realization.
I read everything again last night. It was interesting and funny, so far my fears seem to have materialised into reality! Haha! The one part that stood out and made me laugh though was when you said this:
In these 'choice' exercises you are trying to notice that the story comes milliseconds after the action begins. It is as you begin to get up that the thought comes, " i'll go to the kitchen and make a sanwich" Its all just happening but a story is added on top.
I know this is true. I have seen this. I think the reason it made me laugh was because yes I have seen this. I guess that's the basis of good comedy, pointing out that which has been seen to be true but nobody realises. Will have another read of the gatecrashers stuff later today.

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cloudrift
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Re: understanding but not seeing

Postby cloudrift » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:50 am

And something else that came to mind from reading everything again was:

What's the actual difference between believing in a self and seeing one does not exist?

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cloudrift
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Re: understanding but not seeing

Postby cloudrift » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:52 am

Is there some difference to experience? All the the thoughts and feelings are still there. So what's the difference?

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MichaelD
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Re: understanding but not seeing

Postby MichaelD » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:59 am

Hi Cloudrift,

In these 'choice' exercises you are trying to notice that the story comes milliseconds after the action begins. It is as you begin to get up that the thought comes, " i'll go to the kitchen and make a sanwich" Its all just happening but a story is added on top.

I know this is true. I have seen this.
Great.

So if you have seen that Life just carries on Lifeing with a thought story added on top (like with the squirrels when you watch nature) why do you still believe the separate self story?

Surely you have seen now that it is a fiction?

Sure thoughts are trundling on about a 'you' but do they point to anything more real than Batman or Santa Claus?

Exactly where in direct experience is it?

Remember thinking won't help only looking directly at experience will. :-)

Michael

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cloudrift
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Re: understanding but not seeing

Postby cloudrift » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:57 pm

So if you have seen that Life just carries on Lifeing with a thought story added on top (like with the squirrels when you watch nature) why do you still believe the separate self story?
I don't know the answer to this. I was just watching the seagulls today. It feels like it still has power and I don't know why.
Surely you have seen now that it is a fiction?
Can you tell me what it being a fiction means for you Michael? Is it that none of the thoughts about yourself trigger any further thoughts or emotional response. Because you see that it is a fiction it has no further effect. Or does it mean you just observe what comes moment to moment and never tell yourself "I am like this..." or "I am like that..."? Or something else?
Sure thoughts are trundling on about a 'you' but do they point to anything more real than Batman or Santa Claus?
You already know that I agree with you intellectually. But there is a "meaning giver" in there somewhere that is refusing to stop giving this meaning.
Exactly where in direct experience is it?
Its not findable.
Remember thinking won't help only looking directly at experience will. :-)
Guess the problem is right here. So I am keeping going back to the moment of recognition that the story come after the action begins. I can't pinpoint precisely how or when I observed this. So I am trying to observe this each moment for each action. Not managed to grab it again yet though....

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MichaelD
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Re: understanding but not seeing

Postby MichaelD » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:03 pm

Hi Cloudrift,
Can you tell me what it being a fiction means for you Michael? Is it that none of the thoughts about yourself trigger any further thoughts or emotional response. Because you see that it is a fiction it has no further effect. Or does it mean you just observe what comes moment to moment and never tell yourself "I am like this..." or "I am like that..."? Or something else?
There is a marked reduction in identification with anything external. Internal dialogue and in ordinary language "I" etc is still used. Emotions are very rarely triggered by thoughts because it is more difficult for a story to get going but if one has once it is noticed it tends to drop. Thought is quieter and less. The core experience is one of silence / stillness (depending on how you feel these things) with a background tone of well being.
there is a "meaning giver" in there somewhere that is refusing to stop giving this meaning.
Really? The meaning giver needs to be found then.

Does a tree have meaning other than what is added to it by the climate activist, or the logger, or the poet?


Although I am not sure quite how this relates to no self. And I am certainly not advocating nihilism.

Remember thinking won't help only looking directly at experience will. :-)
Guess the problem is right here. So I am keeping going back to the moment of recognition that the story come after the action begins. I can't pinpoint precisely how or when I observed this. So I am trying to observe this each moment for each action. Not managed to grab it again yet though....

Sounds good. Remember this is all the time; moving around, tidying your home, making a meal. There will be brain activity, thought about what is happening but does it require a separate self?

Same with reading these words. Recognition is occurring but is some kind of separate self needed or is reading just happenning. If you touch the tip of your nose with your finger it is very dextrous but is a separate self needed or just a brain and neuromuscular control? - like a squirrel jumping between branches?

Michael

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cloudrift
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Re: understanding but not seeing

Postby cloudrift » Sun May 05, 2019 8:08 pm

Sounds good. Remember this is all the time; moving around, tidying your home, making a meal. There will be brain activity, thought about what is happening but does it require a separate self?

Same with reading these words. Recognition is occurring but is some kind of separate self needed or is reading just happenning. If you touch the tip of your nose with your finger it is very dextrous but is a separate self needed or just a brain and neuromuscular control? - like a squirrel jumping between branches?
Just wanted to say still doing this. Nothing changed as yet. Will continue and report if anything happens...

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MichaelD
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Re: understanding but not seeing

Postby MichaelD » Wed May 08, 2019 10:04 pm

Hi Cloudrift,

Just saw this from Ilona:

"Is life happening to a tree or as a tree?

Can you see that tree is a form of life? That it’s aliveness that takes a form which we call a tree?

Is life happening to this body or as this body?

Can you see that what we call thoughts, feelings, sensations, situation, people, all are names for a form. And we fixate on labels for forms. But all that is aliveness showing up as forms.

Is life happening to you or as you?"

Michael

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cloudrift
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Re: understanding but not seeing

Postby cloudrift » Sun May 12, 2019 9:46 pm

Is life happening to you or as you?
Have been continually re-reading the post above you quoted from Ilona. It makes sense. Its reasonable. There is no seeing of it though. I keep looking every day in other ways, watching what's happening. There is no sense of anything changing yet. Just will keep doing that.

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cloudrift
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Re: understanding but not seeing

Postby cloudrift » Sun May 12, 2019 9:48 pm

I forgot to answer the question. Actually I don't know the 'right' answer. Anyway so my I answer is I don't know!

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MichaelD
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Re: understanding but not seeing

Postby MichaelD » Mon May 13, 2019 4:23 pm

Hi Cloudrift,

Why not deal with each question in turn?

Can you see a tree is life happening that you have slapped a label on?

It makes sense. Its reasonable.
How are you going to live from below the neck?

Perhaps go back to the beginning of the thread and do all the excercises again but with the heart.

Try nature, poetry, Zazen.

Try and sit in zazen as much as possible. Just present to experience just as it is. Not that there is a duality between you and experience but it is difficult to convey in words. Basicaly don't do anything just notice what is occuring without claiming any of it, whether it is the sound of birdsong or a rumble in the stomach. Nothing is owned by 'you' it is just happening.

As much of this as you can to drop below thinking.

:-)

Michael

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cloudrift
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Re: understanding but not seeing

Postby cloudrift » Thu May 16, 2019 10:52 pm

How are you going to live from below the neck?

Perhaps go back to the beginning of the thread and do all the excercises again but with the heart
I really laughed at that. Was told exactly the same once before. Trouble is I don't really know what doing it with the heart means. How is it different to what I did before? Don't know.
Can you see a tree is life happening that you have slapped a label on?
I can't see it. It seems I have just been reasoning it. Reasoning with my head. Which isn't actually seeing it. That seems to be the problem.
Try nature, poetry, Zazen.

Try and sit in zazen as much as possible. Just present to experience just as it is. Not that there is a duality between you and experience but it is difficult to convey in words. Basicaly don't do anything just notice what is occuring without claiming any of it, whether it is the sound of birdsong or a rumble in the stomach. Nothing is owned by 'you' it is just happening.

As much of this as you can to drop below thinking.

:-)
Thanks Michael, you are very patient :) Will do as you say. Hopefully something will change and I will find a different way.

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MichaelD
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Re: understanding but not seeing

Postby MichaelD » Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:25 pm

Hey Cloudrift,

How's it hanging?

Michael

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MichaelD
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Re: understanding but not seeing

Postby MichaelD » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:39 pm

Hi Cloudrift,

You have gone a bit quiet. Are you ok? Are you still engaged with your inquiry? Are you stuck?

Please let me know how you are doing.

Warm regards,

Michael


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