SelfingStrong

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:32 am

Hi Kay,
Thanks so much for continuing to guide me. I am clear on what you have stated below.
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
The hum of the air conditioner. (Hot here so I don’t think it’ll be turning off anytime soon:)

Lisa

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forgetmenot
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:00 am

Hi Lisa,
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
The hum of the air conditioner. (Hot here so I don’t think it’ll be turning off anytime soon:)
Great! Now redo Part I of the exercise, and then look carefully at what I am pointing to with the following questions. Please answer from looking at actual experience only (ie colour, sound, thought, smell, taste or sensation), and not with an intellectual answer.

Please repeat the exercise and tell me:-

Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is the 'hum of the air conditioner'?
In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is the 'hum of the air conditioner'?


What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing the humming of 'air conditioner’?

Throughout this exploration, please answer all questions that I have put in blue text, and please answer them individually, using the quote function to highlight which question you are answering.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:37 pm

Hi Kay,
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is the 'hum of the air conditioner'?
it’s not known really without thought.
In other words, what is it that suggests the sound is the 'hum of the air conditioner'?
it’s thought that suggests it’s ‘hum of the air conditioner’.

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing the humming of 'air conditioner’?
. It is just sound.

Lisa

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forgetmenot
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:31 pm

Hey Lisa,
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard is the 'hum of the air conditioner'?
it’s not known really without thought.
Yes, it is thought that suggest that the AE of sound is the humming of an air conditioner. Without thought, this is not known. Sound is known, hum of air conditioner is not known.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with,and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience


The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:12 am

Hi Kay,
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
if I don’t rely on thought at all, I’m not sure what it is. I don’t know that it’s an ‘Apple’. I do see color though and it’s different from the color around it.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Well I see something here but I don’t know that it’s ‘apple’.

However, is an apple actually known?
no.

Lisa

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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:45 am

My apologies as I am unable to respond for several days to your post as the internet in my area is down.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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forgetmenot
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:08 pm

Hello Lisa,
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
if I don’t rely on thought at all, I’m not sure what it is. I don’t know that it’s an ‘Apple’. I do see color though and it’s different from the color around it.
Okay…so without thought, how is it known that there are many different colours?

Without thought, how is it known that a colour ends and another begins? LOOK carefully at the picture. How is it known that the colour labelled 'brown' is a tree and that the outside of the tree is the border which differentiates and separates the tree from the 'sky', 'grass', 'other tree'? Without thought, how would this be known?


Image
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Well I see something here but I don’t know that it’s ‘apple’.
Yes, so the actual experience is that of colour. Without thought, it cannot be known that is it an apple.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:42 am

Hi Kay,
Okay…so without thought, how is it known that there are many different colours?
without thought, I don’t really know that there are different colors.
Without thought, how is it known that a colour ends and another begins?
Thought says ‘this color is blue and this color is green and they are not the same color.’ If there is an implication to this, I might be missing it
LOOK carefully at the picture. How is it known that the colour labelled 'brown' is a tree and that the outside of the tree is the border which differentiates and separates the tree from the 'sky', 'grass', 'other tree'? Without thought, how would this be known?
it wouldn’t be known without thought. It might as well be an abstract or just a mix of color.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.
I’m not sure how much detail you want here so let me know if I’m off.
Brushing teeth - sensation
Toothbrush - image
Smell of the toothpaste - smell
Water running - sound
Scratching an itch - sensation
Walking to car - sensation
Sight of the car - image/color
Birds chirping - sounds
Need to respond to an email - thought
Frustration at the kids fighting - sensation
Eating ice cream - taste

Lisa

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forgetmenot
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:30 am

Hi Lisa,
Okay…so without thought, how is it known that there are many different colours?
without thought, I don’t really know that there are different colors.
Exactly. So all there is, is THIS/experience appearing exactly as it is, which thought then overlays by labelling it as ‘colour’ and then further overlaying it with the story of there being many different colourS. Actual experience is everything except the content of thought. Thought in and of itself does not contain any experience. If it did you would be able to taste the thought 'sweet' and the thought 'water' would be wet.
Without thought, how is it known that a colour ends and another begins?
Thought says ‘this color is blue and this color is green and they are not the same color.’ If there is an implication to this, I might be missing it
Without thought, how can it possibly be known that colour is blue or green, or pink or yellow or magenta etc?

There are no differences as experience/THIS. That cannot be known without thought and thought knows nothing. There has to be a 'you' that is separate to experience to know that there is a difference. And there is no separation in any shape or form
LOOK carefully at the picture. How is it known that the colour labelled 'brown' is a tree and that the outside of the tree is the border which differentiates and separates the tree from the 'sky', 'grass', 'other tree'? Without thought, how would this be known?
it wouldn’t be known without thought. It might as well be an abstract or just a mix of color.
And without thought, how would it be known that there is “a mix of colour”?

Let's try the exercise again :)

How is it known that there are lots of colours?

Image

When looking at this picture, thought automatically divides and labels colour into many different colours, then further names those colours into specific objects.

IGNORE ALL object labels and colour labels - are there many colourS? Or is there simply colour?
Is there an actual gap between the ‘trees’?
Where does colour begin and end? In other words, can an actual dividing line be found between where one colour ends and another begins, or is that just a mental construct?



Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:31 am

Hi Kay,
Without thought, how can it possibly be known that colour is blue or green, or pink or yellow or magenta etc?
No.

IGNORE ALL object labels and colour labels - are there many colourS? Or is there simply colour?
simply color although couldn’t even ‘color’ be just another label?
Is there an actual gap between the ‘trees’?
If I understand this question, there is no gap between the trees. There is just color.
Where does colour begin and end? In other words, can an actual dividing line be found between where one colour ends and another begins, or is that just a mental construct?
Well, if I’m ignoring the label ‘green’ or ‘blue’, then it’s not possible to have a dividing line because there would just be ‘color’. Am I understanding the question you are asking?

Thanks,
Lisa

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forgetmenot
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:34 am

Hi Lisa,
Without thought, how can it possibly be known that colour is blue or green, or pink or yellow or magenta etc?
No.
Exactly. Without thought, it cannot be known that there are many different colourS.
IGNORE ALL object labels and colour labels - are there many colourS? Or is there simply colour?
simply color although couldn’t even ‘color’ be just another label?
Yes, ‘colour’ is a label too, however that label points to AE ie what IS/THIS/experience itself, and without the labels colour, sound, smell, taste, thought and sensation, we would not be able to have this conversation and I would not be able to point to what IS! Thought either points to AE or it points to thoughts about thoughts ie fantasy.

Thought ‘points’ to THIS/experience and divides it and then overlays the divisions with labels (colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation and sound) and thought stories about THIS. Thought further divides these divisions and labels and tells stories about them as well, and on it goes.
Is there an actual gap between the ‘trees’?
If I understand this question, there is no gap between the trees. There is just color.
Lovely, yes! It is only a thought that suggests the colour between the ‘trees’ is a gap. Where can a gap be found! Let’s take this even further.

Image

Notice that when you go by direct visual experience only, the tree is distinguished from the sky by colour alone. The ‘border’ or the ‘dividing line’ between the tree and the sky is what thought describes as 'a sudden change in colour' and the shapes that thought suggests are objects are nothing more than different patterns of colour.

Shadows imply depth, but shadows are just darker shades of colour. When going with seeing only, there is nothing else in the colour labelled as 'shadow' that is different from any other colour. If you IGNORE all the colour labels that thought gives colour, there are not many different colourS, there is just colour. And what about light? Light is the same as shadow - just a 'change in colour', nothing else.

Look at the tree. There are seeming 'changes in colour' labelled ‘darker’ or ‘lighter’, which thought implies as differences in depth and distance, but actually they are just seeming changes in colour.

Can depth actually be experienced?
Is there really a 3D dimension or only 2D?

Look at colour labelled ‘clouds’, some look closer to the tree and others seem far/further away.
Can ‘closer’ and ‘far’ be experienced at all?

Is there a foreground or a background?
Is there an experience of ‘tree’ apart from colour?

We normally believe that colour is coming from the independent object (tree).
But is there really an object hiding somewhere behind the colour, or an object which is ‘emitting’ the colour?
Is there the experience of a physical object (tree) behind the colour, or independent of colour?

When going along with seeing only, is there anything else directly experienced about the tree other than colour?
Is there an objectively existing tree or sky or clouds or grass at all?
Are there separate objects present?

Where does colour begin and end? In other words, can an actual dividing line be found between where one colour ends and another begins, or is that just a mental construct?
Well, if I’m ignoring the label ‘green’ or ‘blue’, then it’s not possible to have a dividing line because there would just be ‘color’. Am I understanding the question you are asking?
Yes, you are understand the question! :) Exactly…without thought it’s not possible to have a dividing line, so there is simply colour and not many different colours.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:02 pm

Hi Kay...just need a quick clarification...the foreground/background and 2D/3D questions....are you asking In reference to the picture or in real life?
Thx,
Lisa

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forgetmenot
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:05 am

Hello Lisa,
.just need a quick clarification...the foreground/background and 2D/3D questions....are you asking In reference to the picture or in real life?
How are the questions any different whether you see what I am pointing to from the picture provided, or if you go outside and look? So you can either use the picture or if you like you can go outside and use that picture as foreground/background. Since you had to ask, I would suggest doing both.

Also, how is a picture of a tree, which is AE of colour any different to a tree that is seemingly seen outside in the garden?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:27 pm

Hi Kay,
Can depth actually be experienced?
No, when looking at the picture or outside and relying solely on seeing, depth cannot be experienced.
I
s there really a 3D dimension or only 2D?
Again, when just seeing, I only experience 2D. 3D is inferred.
Look at colour labelled ‘clouds’, some look closer to the tree and others seem far/further away.
Can ‘closer’ and ‘far’ be experienced at all?
No.
I
s there a foreground or a background?
No, just an idea about it.
I
s there an experience of ‘tree’ apart from colour?
No, just color.

We normally believe that colour is coming from the independent object (tree).
But is there really an object hiding somewhere behind the colour, or an object which is ‘emitting’ the colour?
this is hard :) Thought really wants me to say yes here. But if I do not go to the thought label screaming ‘tree’, there is just the color. No object that is emitting that color.
Is there the experience of a physical object (tree) behind the colour, or independent of colour?
No, there is no way to separate the color from the tree.
When going along with seeing only, is there anything else directly experienced about the tree other than colour?
No.
Is there an objectively existing tree or sky or clouds or grass at all?
Again, stripping away all thought labels, no, these things do not exist objectively.
Are there separate objects present
? No, they are just labels.

Lisa

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forgetmenot
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:01 am

Hey Lisa,

Lovely looking :)
But is there really an object hiding somewhere behind the colour, or an object which is ‘emitting’ the colour?
this is hard :) Thought really wants me to say yes here. But if I do not go to the thought label screaming ‘tree’, there is just the color. No object that is emitting that color.
Nice looking! Yes, thought will seem insistent on what colour is, but when you just ignore it and look at colour itself; without thought nothing infers that it is a tree…it is simply colour. It simply IS.
Is there the experience of a physical object (tree) behind the colour, or independent of colour?
No, there is no way to separate the color from the tree.
Exactly! The ‘tree’ is colour, the colour isn’t the tree. It’s like a painting of a tree. The tree is paint, the paint isn’t the tree. Experience/THIS is not a tree, the tree is experience. There is that subtle difference which is so easily overlooked! All these ‘things’, will always be experience, but experience will never be one of those ‘things’.
Is there an objectively existing tree or sky or clouds or grass at all?
Again, stripping away all thought labels, no, these things do not exist objectively.
Are there separate objects present? No, they are just labels.
Are you beginning to see how thought overlays experience/THIS quite convincingly with stories which then veils the simplicity of what actually is? It is the stories that create the illusion of separation and the idea of there being a separate self to what actually IS.

Okay, here is an exercise which points out the difference between actual experience and content of thought. Thoughts either point to AE or they point to thoughts about thought. Thought, in and of itself, does not contain any experience, otherwise you would be able to taste the word ‘sweet’ and feel the word ‘hot’ and hear thunder when the word ‘thunder’ appeared!

There are two types of thoughts:
#1 Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
#2 Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just a mental image of a cup?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?


Now let’s look at the word thought “here is a cup”….

Can a 'real' cup be found in the thought itself?

"Here is a cup" is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what a cup is and does, what it is made from etc are the content of that thought. What do those thoughts point to exactly? Do they point to colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound? Or do they simply point to actual experience of thought and thought only?

So thoughts and mental images are actual experience only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, what they are pointing to (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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