SelfingStrong

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:32 pm

Hi Lisa,

Good to hear you are continuing to work through this.

I have also been looking through the thread.

Let me know when you are ready to continue.

All good wishes,

Dave

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:55 am

I’m still going here. I’m assuming it’s ok to read other threads on the LU site? Thx!

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:24 pm

Hi Lisa,
Good to hear from you. Read away whatever helps. This is a public forum - maybe there is some question we haven't asked, some area we have not looked at.
One thing to consider - what happens if you stop looking?

What is there when you simply stop?

Is there someone who is looking, or someone who is stopping looking?

Is there actually "looking"? Looking implies a looker. Is there a difference between experience, and looking at experience?

D x

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:44 pm

Hi Dave,
One thing to consider - what happens if you stop looking?
I'm not sure why, but I had a hard time answering this question. Nothing happens really. Things just continue as they always have.
Is there someone who is looking, or someone who is stopping looking?
I hope this isn't too confusing. When I actually stop and "look", no, I don't find a someone. But who or what is it that sees this question, then stops to actually "look"? Is that just conditioning?
Is there actually "looking"? Looking implies a looker. Is there a difference between experience, and looking at experience?
Well something happens for sure where the focus of attention changes. I don't know what that is exactly. It is "assumed" there is a looker until "looking" actually happens and it's seen that there is just experience. "Looking at experience" I think is just language or wording trying to describe something that already is...experience.

Thanks for sticking with me on this.

Lisa

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:02 pm

Hi Lisa,
Good to hear back from you.
But who or what is it that sees this question, then stops to actually "look"?
Is there looking happening, or simply experience, and after a thought saying that looking happened, therefore there must be a looker (it's implied by the language itself)? You can apply that question to this whole process. Are you a tally looking when replying to a question, or simply thinking about thoughts of looking?
Is that just conditioning?
This question is really outside the realm of this investigation, which is really just about what you actually experience and therefore can know.
At some point experience began to be labelled and divided into self and out there. This all appears to happen retrospectively as we bump along attempting to avoid pain. See for yourself how it plays out moment to moment. It's so automatic and habitual it can be hard to believe it all kicks in after the event, this idea of acharacter doing stuff in the world. Tell me your version of how it seems to work.

As for focus - can you spot a controller deciding to focus? Or is there just what is experienced at any given moment and thought chiming in to say this is or that was focussed on? Not that experience does not change, just - is anyone or anything actually changing anything or does it just happen?
Take care,
D x

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:41 pm

Hi Lisa,

A few additional thoughts for you. In fact, I recommend dropping whatever "looking" you are doing at the moment to answer the questions in this post, and to do the exercise at the end.

Part One:

Tell me once again, is thought the author of experience?

Next question: Is there an independent, separate author of thought or, does thought just happen?

I'm going to assume for the moment that the answer to the first question is yes.

I'm also going to assume that the answer to the second question is no, thought just happens. This seems to be what you have said in the past, but correct me if I'm wrong!

Next: I believe you have told me that belief is simply thought about other thoughts. Is that about right?

I'm going to assume for the moment that the answer to that question is yes. But correct me if I'm wrong!

Assuming everything I have said is about right so far, let me paraphrase where our conversation seems to have landed:

I ask, "What are your expectations?"
You answer, "I don't expect anything to change, just that I will no longer believe in a self."
I ask, "What is a belief?"
You answer, "Simply thoughts."
Then I ask something like the questions that I have already asked above, in this very post.
You answer in the way that I have indicated above, in this very post.
I then ask if you are clear now that that is no self anywhere to be found.
You then answer that you are clear that there is no self conceptually, but that you still believe that there is one.

Then I ask you "What is a belief?"...

And so it goes...

Does any of this sound familiar?

Part 2:

So, last question for now - once again: What are your expectations of this process?

If the answer goes something like: 'I will no longer believe in a self", you are now going to need to be more specific. What does not believing in a self actually consist of? What does not believing in a self look like to you?


Write freely please on this topic. I suggest getting a big blank piece of paper out and simply free write what you want out of this process.

Be as specific as possible. Be as vague as possible.

What specific events do you expect to occur when there is no longer a belief there? What do you expect the realization to feel like? Get it all out there Lisa!

Report back.

Looking forward to hearing back from you!

D x

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:44 pm

CORRECTION:
Tell me once again, is thought the author of experience?

Next question: Is there an independent, separate author of thought or, does thought just happen?

I'm going to assume for the moment that the answer to the first question is yes.
Last sentence should read:

I'm going to assume for the moment that the answer to the first question is no.

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:30 pm

Hi Dave...ok, I will work on this and get back to you. Thank you!

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:50 pm

Hi Dave - I had some stuff come up this weekend but I will post a reply tonight.
Thx,
Lisa

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:17 pm

Hi Dave,
Part One:

Tell me once again, is thought the author of experience?

Next question: Is there an independent, separate author of thought or, does thought just happen?

I'm going to assume for the moment that the answer to the first question is NO.

I'm also going to assume that the answer to the second question is no, thought just happens. This seems to be what you have said in the past, but correct me if I'm wrong!

Next: I believe you have told me that belief is simply thought about other thoughts. Is that about right?

I'm going to assume for the moment that the answer to that question is yes. But correct me if I'm wrong!

Assuming everything I have said is about right so far, let me paraphrase where our conversation seems to have landed:

I ask, "What are your expectations?"
You answer, "I don't expect anything to change, just that I will no longer believe in a self."
I ask, "What is a belief?"
You answer, "Simply thoughts."
Then I ask something like the questions that I have already asked above, in this very post.
You answer in the way that I have indicated above, in this very post.
I then ask if you are clear now that that is no self anywhere to be found.
You then answer that you are clear that there is no self conceptually, but that you still believe that there is one.

Then I ask you "What is a belief?"...

And so it goes...

Does any of this sound familiar?
This is all accurate.

Part 2:
So, last question for now - once again: What are your expectations of this process?

If the answer goes something like: 'I will no longer believe in a self", you are now going to need to be more specific. What does not believing in a self actually consist of? What does not believing in a self look like to you?

I'm not sure it's anything profound really just that the story would continue but I would no longer buy into it. You get into a disagreement with someone and may feel attacked but then you know... there is no one who is there to feel attacked OR do the attacking. If decisions are being made on their own, and something comes up about a "me" making the right choice, I would hope I would be able to see through that. Not that those thoughts wouldn't come up at all, more that I would know there is no "me" making a choice here or it's not something to worry about given that things happen on their own. Right now, I just cannot imagine taking my foot off the gas, so to speak. I am trying to make some career decisions and it just doesn't seem possible that thoughts are happening, and some sort of action will happen or not happen and there is not a "me" that has anything to do with it. Then there will be all of the thought, did I do the right thing, maybe I should have done this, on and on. If the self were seen through, I would hope not to get caught up in that type of thing as much. I think I have said before, but a belief does "feel" different than a thought. It seems to have more weight to it and be more solid. It's not accompanied by sensation so in direct experience it is just thought but it feels permanent and hard to drop.

I think that is all I have for now. Thanks Dave.

Lisa

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:37 pm

Hi Lisa,

So a belief is a thought that feels different. How? Be specific about what feels different and where.

You say it has more weight. Where is this weight experienced? Or if you are only speaking figuratively, can you simply see that there is just more thought being "added" to thought, calling it something that has "weight"?

As regards seeing through the stories - has NOTHING changed since the beginning of this investigation?

As regards it not "seeming" possible that things are just happening - you have told me.that you have found that thought is not authoring experience, and that nothing is authoring thought, when you look. How does it not seem possible when, when you look, that is patently the case?

What happens when you stop "trying" to make the career decisions and just let go into the experience itself, which includes allowing thought to commemorate as it will?

D x

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:38 pm

...to commentate as it will...

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DrWilko
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby DrWilko » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:59 pm

Lisa,

By all means carry on looking, butI am going to suggest we find another guide for you.

Our conversation has become stuck in a loop where the words appear to change, but it is much the same as I paraphrased earlier. Whether the word is belief, or "seems", or invisible thread, we have moved away from looking at experience to simply looking at concepts, which is not what this investigation is about. By the way - this is at least as much to do with my own questioning as it is to do with your answers!

I suggest going back to the beginning and looking once again at the nature of thought and actual experience. A different guide may provide a different perspective in which to do this...

If for whatever reason this is not a good time to be continuing an investigation, please let me know. Otherwise I will be seeing who is available on the guide forum to pick up your investigation.

Thank you for our conversation! And best of luck!
Dave x

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:29 am

Ok, sounds good - thank you for all of your guidance, Dave. I really appreciate it!
Lisa

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forgetmenot
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:52 am

Hello Lisa,

My name is Kay and I am happy to continue guiding you. I won't be going back to see what has been looked at so far, as we will be starting from scratch. There will more than likely be double ups of exercises....but that would be beneficial to you anyway.

I am committed to pointing as a means for you to LOOK so as to have the realisation that there is no separate self, as long as you are committed to this exploration. The commitment needed is as follows:-

To see This (to have the realisation), first, you must be 100% committed to seeing it. It can’t be a nice idea, an intellectual curiosity. You have got to pursue this as if you have no other choice.

Second, you must be open with a willingness to set aside your current beliefs about how things are and engage in rigorous inquiry. No-one can give this to you.
Your beliefs might rush in saying, “Yeah, but…”, “OK, but what about…?”, “I was taught that…”, “My other teacher or the book I read said…” All this must be pushed aside and sometimes quite aggressively.

Third, you must engage in active listening. Listen carefully to the words your guide is using. Be sure you are clear on the context within which the words are being used. Sometimes, when you review what was asked or said, you realize that what you thought you heard versus what was actually said are two different things.

Fourth, this ties in with number 2… practical application… You can’t just sit and ponder, you must apply the ideas to your life; see them in action. Do the work.

Fifth, be 100% honest with your guide and with yourself. You can’t cheat your way through this. Wherever you are in your understanding or lack thereof is fine, but your guide can’t help you if you are withholding. Withholding is unfair both to the guide and yourself.


As I said above, my role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to be committed and to be committed to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been.

So now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment.

You are looking at the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, sensation and taste and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

So first we become aware of what AE is and how it is used to ‘look’.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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