SelfingStrong

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:02 pm

Hi Kay,
Okay...so now going back to the above, and from carefully looking at what thought calls a head, forehead and eyes, can an "I" of any description be found in anywhere?
No.
When looking to find a head, could a head be found? Is a head actually known?
No.
Does the sensation labelled as 'head' know anything about a head?
No.
Does the sensation labelled as 'head' suggest in any way that it is a head?
No.
So could either a head or an ""I be found in the sensation labelled as head?
No. This took a while to get the hang of. Driving, my head would bump the back of the head rest, immediately the idea of a head and what it looks like came to mind, but I had to remind me self it's just sensation and and image of a head. Similar with eyes and forehead.
When looking to find a forehead, could a forehead be found? Is a forehead actually known?
No.
Does the sensation labelled as 'forehead' know anything about a forehead?
No.
Does the sensation labelled as 'forehead' suggest in any way that it is a forehead?
No.
So could either a forehead or an "I" be found in the sensation labelled as forehead?
No.
When looking to find eyes, could eyes be found? Are eyes actually known?
No.
Does the sensation labelled as 'eyes' know anything about a eyes?
No.
Does the sensation labelled as 'eyes' suggest in any way that it is eyes?
No.
So could eyes or an "I" be found in the sensation labelled as eyes?
No.
When carefully looking...are there specific locations to where sensation labelled as head, forehead and eyes are supposedly found? In other words, does experience have a location?
No. If there is no head, eyes and forehead, then experience does not have a location.

Thanks,
Lisa

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forgetmenot
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:31 am

Hi Lisa,

Nice LOOKING :)
So could either a head or an ""I be found in the sensation labelled as head?
No. This took a while to get the hang of. Driving, my head would bump the back of the head rest, immediately the idea of a head and what it looks like came to mind, but I had to remind me self it's just sensation and and image of a head. Similar with eyes and forehead.
Excellent...well done! So the suggestion, via thought and images, that it is a head that is touching a something else, will always appear. That is not going to go away. There is no one in control of what thoughts appear and when, so they will continue to appear. That is why you have to diligently LOOK each time that suggestion appears, so that eventually the ‘corrective thought’ will appear directly after those thoughts and images and tell you what is actually appearing ie AE of sensation and thoughts & images ABOUT a head and whatever it is ‘touching’.
When carefully looking...are there specific locations to where sensation labelled as head, forehead and eyes are supposedly found? In other words, does experience have a location?
No. If there is no head, eyes and forehead, then experience does not have a location.
Terrific! So, it is seen that there is no head, eyes or forehead. Again, the suggestion of these being ‘things’ that belong to a ‘you’ and ‘your body’ will continue to appear…just LOOK to see what is actually appearing.

So can an “I” reside anywhere in those ‘places’? And do thoughts and mental images actually appear in a head, or in a specific location?



Okay….going back to the hand exercise to see if there is any control, decision or choices.

So let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions.
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Does a thought control it?
I don't notice any thoughts as it happens. Or at least there is nothing that says "turn over now" or "don't turn over".
So I would like you to deliberately say “turn the hand” and see if the hand actually turns? I want you to really see if a thought is needed for the hand to turn or not turn.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No. I had always assumed you "make up your mind" or "decide" to do something but I'm not finding a mind or an individual doing that.
Assumptions are just another appearing about something else…so thoughts about thought ie story!

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?


With delight,
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:52 am

Hi Kay,
So I would like you to deliberately say “turn the hand” and see if the hand actually turns? I want you to really see if a thought is needed for the hand to turn or not turn.
A thought is definitely not needed to turn or not turn over the hand.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
The qualities just appeared and I did not choose the preferences.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?
No.
Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
No, it just happened.
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
I did not and have not.
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
No, I honestly cannot decipher how my hand went to the coffee as opposed to the water.
Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
No, not at all.
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
A feeling cannot choose. I don't know what's doing the choosing. It's not a thought or a feeling though.


Thanks,
Lisa

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forgetmenot
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:53 am

Hi Lisa,
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
A feeling cannot choose. I don't know what's doing the choosing. It's not a thought or a feeling though.
Yes, a feeling, be it a sensation or a thought cannot choose anything. Not knowing is the best place to come from. As soon as we think we know something, we are using thought as our knowledge base and thought knows nothing. If we ask “do I actually know that right now” and LOOK instead to see what is actually appearing/happening ie strip it back to barebones…we see that there is no knowing of why something it is happening, or if anything is really happening. All there is, is THIS appearing exactly as it is. But don’t take my word for it, LOOK for yourself.

Okay, so we have looked at the idea of a controller, decider and chooser. Now let’s look at the idea of a doer/doership.
We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:10 am

Hi Kay,
So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
No, that is not possible.
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
No.
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
No.
Can you turn off seeing?
No.
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
A chooser didn't choose anything. A thought might say I saw this or that, but really, seeing is just happening.
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
Nothing. What is here is just here.

Thanks,
Lisa

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forgetmenot
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:25 am

Hey Lisa,

So is it clear that there cannot be found a someone/something that is deciding, controlling or choosing?

Okay, so let’s have a look at the body.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:55 am

Hi Kay,
So is it clear that there cannot be found a someone/something that is deciding, controlling or choosing?
Yes

Can it be known how tall the body is?
No.
Does the body have a weight or volume?
No.
In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
no, just a general sensation. No boundary.
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
no. And without relying on thought, I’m not sure where the sensation is actually coming from.
Is there an inside or an outside?
No.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Just sensation. I am assuming my eyes are still closed here so I’m not seeing color.

Thanks!
Lisa

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forgetmenot
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:28 am

Hi Lisa,

Please look at the following question again and answer it individually.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Just sensation. I am assuming my eyes are still closed here so I’m not seeing color.
Can a body be found in the sensation itself?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a body?
So what is the AE of the body?


Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?


(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?


(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?


(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:15 am

Hi Kay,
Can I take some more time with this one? I would like to do it one more time before responding.
Thanks,
Lisa

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forgetmenot
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:21 am

Hey Lisa....certainly. Take as long as you need :)

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:26 pm

Hi Kay,
This was so strange.
Can a body be found in the sensation itself?
No.
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a body?
No.
So what is the AE of the body?
A/E of thought.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
No.
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
Just thoughts suggesting it.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
No.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?
No connection, only thought suggesting it.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
No.
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
No.
Or are there only colours and shapes?
Yes, only colours and shapes.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
Not at all.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Only sensation!
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Just thoughts about it.
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
No body, just thoughts.
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
No.

(
9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
No location at all for the sensations. Weird!

Thanks!
Lisa

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forgetmenot
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:08 am

Hi Lisa,

I have given you 3 exercises to do in this post....so take as much time as you need so you can do them several times each and do them thoroughly.
This was so strange.
Let's push the belief boundaries even further!

This exercise also helps to see how the illusion of the body is ‘created’, so to speak. Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight (ie colour) - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’ (colour labelled as ‘hand’)

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?

9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
No location at all for the sensations. Weird!
So, to consolidate the seeing of this, I would like for you to do the following two exercises. One to see if a 'feeler' and object can be found, and the second to confirm if experience does or does not have a location.

Exercise 1

Please close your eyes for this exercise, just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear about desk or hand and put them aside ie IGNORE them.

Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes.
Now 'go to' the sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things - hand and desk? Or is there simply the AE of sensation.
2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'sensation'?
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'sensation'?
What do you find?

Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?

Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt' – AE sensation?

If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?


Exercise 2

Bring to mind an image of hammer hitting thumb, sensation of pain, thought saying, "ouch!!"
Where exactly did all of that happen?
Where was experience located?
Was experience of pain located in the thumb?
Was experience of images located at the thumb and hammer?
Or is experience always "closer" than even the word "here" can convey?
Does anything actually have a location?
How would you know?
What would count as evidence of actual location?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:16 am

Hi Kay...just wanted to post an update. I am going through these one more time and then I will respond. Thank you!

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forgetmenot
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:28 am

Thank you for letting me know, Lisa.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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EMWBerry
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Re: SelfingStrong

Postby EMWBerry » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:49 pm

Hi Kay,
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Yes.
Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
I'm not able to identify a hierarchy or link between them.

Code: Select all

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?
Only thought links them.
1) How many things do you find? Are there two things - hand and desk? Or is there simply the AE of sensation.
There is just sensation.
2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'sensation'?
No, I notice just sensation.
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'sensation'?
Just sensation.

Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?
I'm not able to differentiate between the two. There is just sensation.
Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt' – AE sensation?
No.
If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
No, it's just a thought.

I'm not sure I fully grasped this one.
Where exactly did all of that happen?
Well there were just thoughts about it, it didn't actually happen. The thoughts don't really have a location.
Where was experience located?
I can't find an actual location.
Was experience of pain located in the thumb?
No.
Was experience of images located at the thumb and hammer?
No
Or is experience always "closer" than even the word "here" can convey?
Is there perhaps another way to ask this question?
Does anything actually have a location?
Not that I can tell.
How would you know?
I don't know!
What would count as evidence of actual location?
I really don't know. It's just a concept.

Let me know if I missed something here.
Thanks!
Lisa


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