The non existent self

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:13 am

Hi Kan,

Well done for starting to establish a meditation practice.
The goal is to get into the habit for now and eventually get more and more focused :)
You have a very developmental / progressive model or assumption underpinning your view.

What about if you sat down and on your first sit radically changed your experience for ever?

This is like how you are with inquiry........

Be relaxed, curious, and open, really look, and who knows what you will see........

Why not re read some 'Gateless Gatecrashers'?

It is free somewhere on the website.

If you are going to do the boundary excercises again do it with the intensity that it is just one shot at it.

Really look!!!

Is there a seperate self doing the looking, making decisions, having experiences or not?

If you really think it is there still then the onus is really on you to find it.

Is it your body?

Is it your thoughts?

Is it controlling what you do?


Michael.

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:04 pm

Hi Michael

Thanks for the direction! As you pointed out, this "phased realization" thought is inexplicably stuck. I'll do as you suggest this week and report back.

I think part (maybe even the main) reason for this phased realization thought is because I feel I see the no self some times. But at the same time I understand when you say that it only needs to be seen once, only I can't truly see that. With your father Christmas or politicians example, it is clear that there can only be one belief (or knowing, meaning either a separate self or not), so what do you think it is when I say "I see the no-self some times"?

Thanks,
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:59 pm

Hi Kan,
As you pointed out, this "phased realization" thought is inexplicably stuck
why believe any particular thought when you have seen how empty they are?

You can think of a glass of water but no matter how thirsty you become it cannot be drunk......
I understand when you say that it only needs to be seen once, only I can't truly see that. With your father Christmas or politicians example, it is clear that there can only be one belief (or knowing, meaning either a separate self or not), so what do you think it is when I say "I see the no-self some times"?
Perhaps glimpses are occurring but not going deep enough. Still too intelectual. Perhaps you don't want to wake up yet, there is not enough desire. Perhaps you are happy with the identity of a seeker and enjoy it as a way of being.

You need to find the answer!

Look with more intent. Are these just words being read or is there a self somewhere reading them. Where is it? can it be found.

Really look!!

Michael

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:55 am

Hi Michael,

All this makes sense and will focus on this. I've been reading Gateless Gatecrashers and that's been helpful - I got some clarity that there is definitely some resistance to the no self realization and I think it's because of a sense of loss of identity. So I want to tackle this with your help so it can be recognized as a thought which is empty.

Thanks,
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:11 pm

Hi Kan,

Looks like you have done it yourself!

Thoughts are saying that Kan is this, Kan is that, with all sorts of beliefs and preferences etc. True to a degree but confining and narrowing. Limiting. Just stories. Like a drop separating itself from the ocean. Better to let the fear go and be the ocean?

As Nicola Jane le Breton stated:

LU helped me see;
thoughts as thoughts,
stories as storied,
and self as fiction.

Michael

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:34 am

Hi Michael,

I have got good direction now so will spend some time to look. I have one more question that recently came up.

I heard a supernatural sort of story that happened to my friend and her family and it was told in first person experience. In short, the mother, daughter (age late 20s) and son (early 30s) were sitting in a train and a person coincidently came to their bogie and said that the daughter is possessed (I'm using the most appropriate word I can find in English, but this is happening in Hindi). He then asked about the mom's husband (deceased) and kind of called him (his spirit or aatman) to come there and spoke to him. Then he asked the 3 to go to a certain place and meet this priest (pundit). They did a ceremony (dunked her in a water well) and got rid of whatever was possessing the daughter. Now this sounds like a thought created story but a few things have confused me a bit:
- Both mom and son saw the daughter shaking uncontrollably before the ceremony (not on account of it being cold) and was resisting getting touched or brought near the ceremony point by the pundit.
- After the ceremony, the daughter said that a very heavy weight was off her shoulder (literally).
- The daughter was on the verge of a divorce and they were just waiting for the husband to sign, but the train guy (who had come coincidently to their bogie) had said that the husband and his mother will call you on your way home and ask for reconciliation on the daughter's terms, which is what happened. Now she's happily married.

There are a few other incidents with this family and maybe you have come across some as well. Now I'm wondering how all this fits with no self and empty thoughts. "Talking" to "spirits" and that train guy even got info about the house of this family and talked about some feature there. There was no way he ever saw their house before.

Also, this family had gone to another guy and he told them (after sending some "spirit") the house number they live in and that it's a corner house, second floor etc.

Since these have occurred so close to home and where it's really impossible for any sort of trick work, it makes one wonder :)

Thanks,
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:59 am

Hi Kan,

Extraordinary as this all is it falls outside the scope of your inquiry.

Your inquiry is to see if you are a tiny self-managed individual or a part of one whole called 'life'.

Non-duality.

From the standpoint of non duality there is nothing suprising about your story. All life is one, everything is intercollected.

The entire cosmos has to have unfolded exactly as it did to produce a blade of grass. To produce Kan.

So is it true that there is a separate self.

The answer cannot and does not come from thinking.....

Genuinely look and find out.

Michael.

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:42 pm

Thanks Michael! I'll do some looking now :)

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:00 pm

Hi Kan,

Good. Answer the questions......Let me know what happens.

Michael

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:10 am

Hi Michael,

I'm on vacation with family so not getting much time. I'll be back in about a week so will spend time and respond after that!

Thanks,
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:10 am

Ok, have an enjoyable vacation.

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:11 am

Hi Michael,

Although I'm back from vacation, my family commitments are much busier than expected so apologies for my slackiness! Right now I'm not getting much time to spend on this. It will probably be so for the next couple of weeks or more.

However I'm keeping up with daily meditation and reading the gateless gatecrashers when I can and this is really helping. Also your note about possible reasons for why I'm not seeing the no self are really great and I'm introspecting on that.

There's also an understanding of needing to see this once and I believe there's been recognition of the "phased approach" as really just thoughts so no need to hang on to it. But I need to really look and spend time. When I've tried this in the past week, this is what typically happens - there is understanding, then immediately there will be physical sensations (which earlier was a sinking feeling but now is a deep breath - always the same now) and then thoughts appear and then I get distracted.

Thanks,
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:07 pm

Hi Kan,
There's also an understanding of needing to see this once and I believe there's been recognition of the "phased approach" as really just thoughts so no need to hang on to it.
Yes, Just thought so no need to believe them. Well done for seeing this.

But I need to really look and spend time.
Yes, if there is no real determination / intensity it is simply a waste of time.....

Do you really want to wake up or is it just a nice idea?

It doesn't require a lot of time. It requires really wanting to know the truth.

So do you?

Where is the self? To the nearest 10mm.

What is it?

Is there a self or not?

Michael.

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:25 am

Hi Michael,

This past week there were some very strong and sustained moments of understanding the no self but still not the one true seeing.

It's possible that it's very intellectual still, but the simple truth is that it's not being given enough time or focus right now.

It's not because of a lack of drive (which I did spend time introspecting) but circumstances. A quick background - my husband and I quit our jobs last year and travelled for a year. Now we are in india spending time with family before moving to a new country (Australia) and starting our life there. So it's not a settled time right now :)

We'll be in Australia mid October and that's when things will start to settle down. I really appreciate the time and direction you've given me so far but I don't want to take your time if there's no corresponding output.

If it works for you, maybe we can restart around late October? From my end the need for meditation is well understood so I'm sticking by it, and last week I realized the drive to see is there as well (which I'd feared was dwindling). There's also an understanding that it needs to be seen once and anything phased or over time is just an illusion. Now it's just a matter of really looking.

Thanks,
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:06 pm

Hi Kan,

Wow. What an amazing time in your life.

It is entirely up to you. I will happily respond whenever you post. Remember you don't need to spend ages on it each day.

'What am I' can be rumbling on in the background but if you are doing an excercise - e.g. looking at a cup, or listening to sound to explore whether there is separation or not you only need to get relaxed and focussed and then explore for a few moments. If you can repeat a few times in the day that will help.

Many folk find sounds really useful for this when they are sitting quietly or meditating. For me it all took place during short breaks at work but I do remember an intensity. Inquiry was the first thing on my mind when I woke and I was excited to log on and find out what I would be asked to investigate. I would write the questions down and then refer to them in gaps during the day. Towards the end even as I was having a pee and staring at the wall in front of me that days question would be there. Quite an intensity built up.

Anyway, back to you. It is different for everyone but drop the belief that you need good or special conditions. That is the 'going on retreat' model. Westerners have been trying that for 70 yrs and Eastern folk for at least 2.500 yrs. It can and does work but the explosion of awakening triggerred by LU indicates that inquiry is much more effective and can be carried out in ordinary daily life with ordinary consciousness. Being in dhyana, or incredibly still, quiet, and concentrated etc turns out not to be necessary.

So again back to you - Do what you feel is best. I am happy to respond.

Wishing you well,

Michael


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