The non existent self

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Thu May 30, 2019 4:57 am

Hi Michael,

Apologies my replies are a little slow; my mind is getting very occupied/exhausted by some ongoing family issues and I don't want to reply till I can really process what you write.

A little on this before I move on - I can definitely see myself handling all this from a more acceptance/autopilot standpoint which is great, but it's still really hard to get out of negative emotions and see through them.

From your 2nd last note,
Remember it only takes one clear seeing that there is no separate self and you are free....
I don't think I had quite understood the meaning of this until your brilliant examples from your last note :) but I see what you mean by saying that it's not incremental.
You don't believe in father xmas less do you
Why really believe the content of thought?
However it is not a real elephant! It is an idea of one, an image. Empty of elephant!
Like when you watch politicians speak. I'm sure you believed them once but now when you watch them on TV I'm sure you see right through them.
All the above examples, but especially the politician example just hit the nail in the head :) I just got it that it just needs to be seen once. But my question is - why am I not seeing it? Why am I only somewhat seeing it, because I was never in a phase where I somewhat believed in father Christmas.

Is it because I've really not even somewhat seen it? In the sense that I only still 'saw it' from within the story of Kan? Or is it because the stories of Kan is like an onion - layers after layers have to be seen through? I guess these statements are still thought based but I'm not able to see why I can't really see.

On the other hand it does seem like I can really see it sometimes. Every now and then, only for a few moments, I can totally see everything (including 'me') operate in autopilot - it's so clear and so perfect - just existence. And it's a very different feeling. But then off it goes.

Thanks,
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Fri May 31, 2019 8:58 am

Hi Kan,
Apologies my replies are a little slow; my mind is getting very occupied/exhausted by some ongoing family issues and I don't want to reply till I can really process what you write.
Sorry to hear od family issues.

Extraordinary!! You have found something in experience called 'mind' Are you sure? What, or where is it? Certainly can't find anything like that here.

I can definitely see myself handling all this from a more acceptance/autopilot standpoint
You may be becomeing more spacious as you become increasingly clear about mental/psychological processes which is a good thing but to be honest there is an alarm bell ringing in relation to 'autopilot'. Sounds unconscious / zombie. Even if sensations and emotions are painful it is important that you stay with them rather than cut off / deny / suppress them. (This isn't specifically Gate related but essential for your general emotional health and mental well being).

But my question is - why am I not seeing it? Why am I only somewhat seeing it, because I was never in a phase where I somewhat believed in father Christmas.

Is it because I've really not even somewhat seen it? In the sense that I only still 'saw it' from within the story of Kan? Or is it because the stories of Kan is like an onion - layers after layers have to be seen through? I guess these statements are still thought based but I'm not able to see why I can't really see.
A good question. The layer answer you give is partly true. There has been layer after layer of self created since you were a baby / infant. Perhaps you are not quite ready to see it yet? Are there fears or concerns that need to be looked at and address. For example common fears are that one will stop loving family members or that at the moment of letting go one may lose sanity etc etc.

Check again whether there are fears or barriers of this nature and let me know.

On the other hand it does seem like I can really see it sometimes. Every now and then, only for a few moments, I can totally see everything (including 'me') operate in autopilot - it's so clear and so perfect - just existence. And it's a very different feeling. But then off it goes.
it's so clear and so perfect - just existence. And it's a very different feeling. But then off it goes.[/quote]

That last bit sounds very good indeed. For many folk transitioning is slow and gentle rather than a big bang moment. Perhaps it is, or will be, like that for you. It sounds like you are doing well. Go back to some of the early excercises.

When looking at a cup can a boundary be found between the cup and any 'you' that is assumed to be there?

Same with eyes closed hearing birdsong / traffic etc?

Is there an act of perception?

Is there anything that can be found looking or listening or is it just happenning all by itselfand we have assumed there is a self doing it?etc etc.

Sit down quietly and let past and present go, really settle in Now and then based in direct experience do the looking / listening. This is what I ever go back to if I start to get tangled in a story. In direct experience there simply isn't a self to be found......

Like you said it is simple and clear, - just existance :-)

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:23 pm

Hi Michael,
Extraordinary!! You have found something in experience called 'mind' Are you sure? What, or where is it? Certainly can't find anything like that here.
That's a great unrecognized gap area :) Next time I feel 'mind exhausted', I'll do some self inquiry :)
You may be becomeing more spacious as you become increasingly clear about mental/psychological processes which is a good thing but to be honest there is an alarm bell ringing in relation to 'autopilot'. Sounds unconscious / zombie. Even if sensations and emotions are painful it is important that you stay with them rather than cut off / deny / suppress them. (This isn't specifically Gate related but essential for your general emotional health and mental well being).
I introspected on this and nothing to worry about - in my definition of autopilot, emotions (good and bad) are as much part of the entity as is breathing or other bodily activities. There is no separation between emotions and what this body/entity is. There is no question of cutting off or suppressing because it's all just a flow and what comes, will come (being Indian, I can thankfully see that very well :))
Check again whether there are fears or barriers of this nature and let me know.
This could be. I'll think about this over the next few days.

And also work on those initial exercises.

Thanks!
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:50 pm

Hi Kan,
Extraordinary!! You have found something in experience called 'mind' Are you sure? What, or where is it? Certainly can't find anything like that here.
That's a great unrecognized gap area :) Next time I feel 'mind exhausted', I'll do some self inquiry :)

I don't understand. Just look right now. Can you find mind or not!?

Can you find a self - right here, right now?

Michael

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:45 pm

Hi Michael,
I don't understand. Just look right now. Can you find mind or not!?
Can you find a self - right here, right now?
No, I can't find the mind or the self. What I'd meant will be more clear below.
Check again whether there are fears or barriers of this nature and let me know.
I checked this and don't believe there's any such thing. I think my main hindrance is that I don't truly 'believe' it, that is I don't really see it.

I looked into this deeper and it's almost like 2 people - when I do self inquiry or answer your questions, I can truly see it. But at other times, I pretty much 'forget' it. Which, upon inquiry, I realized is because I still see the world as objects for the most part, outside of the moments of clarity or self inquiry.

Today I spent a lot of time on this and that's when I realized that I still mostly see everything as objects. I was in a bus going through a scenic route, but the valley view was on the other side of where I was sitting (I had the cliff view). I was a bit upset and then I started doing inquiry. That's when I got another solid clarity - seeing 'forms' (for lack of a better word) but not 'objects'. In this case I was looking at the valley view as an object which 'I didn't get'. But when you realize it's all the same and one - the mountain and the Kan entity, it didn't matter at all. In the past I was confused about the undeniability of a chair existing yet not being a separate object, but I can see now that 'forms' can exist within the one reality.

Because I got this clarity I realized I was seeing everything as objects at other times. So the no-boundary exercises you mentioned are great and I'll focus on them more. When I do these exercises I can see no boundary but all other times I don't. So I want to do them frequently enough so it stays.

Thanks,
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:22 pm

Hi Kan,

Ok. Keep me updated.

:-)

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:44 am

Hi Michael,

Update is good so far :) I've been more frequently getting these no self 'moments' where it's just pure existence. I'm happy to see this so clearly, more frequently.

Even the no boundary exercises are easier to do and see that there isn't a boundary. I'm just going to continue on this and report back in a few days. I think they are helping quite a lot.

Thanks!
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:21 am

Hi Kan,

Great news. Keep doing what seems to be fruitful ans as you suggest report back. :-)

Michael

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:45 pm

Hi Michael,

Not much update so far but it's been going well! Pretty much the same as last week with good momentary realizations. I feel they are more sustained but not fully sure yet. I'm doing the boundary exercises and also trying to get into a rhythm of meditation which is still a challenge - but I'm more at peace with my thoughts so there is low resistance there.

Thanks!
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:27 pm

Hi Kan,
Pretty much the same as last week with good momentary realizations. I feel they are more sustained but not fully sure yet.

What are you not fully sure about?

I'm more at peace with my thoughts so there is low resistance there.

I'm glad you are more at peace. But who is there to own thought?

Are they really 'your' thoughts?


Michael

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:51 am

Hi Michael,
I feel they are more sustained but not fully sure yet.
What are you not fully sure about?
I just meant that I believe I'm able to stay in the no self 'state' longer than before, but need some more days to see if that's truly happening. Like it's easier for me to see the no self and for longer.
I'm glad you are more at peace. But who is there to own thought?
Are they really 'your' thoughts?
True. I actually meant that earlier I used to be very resistant to these thoughts, but now I see that the 'I' thinking this and the thought are no different so I'm more at peace aka not resistant to their coming and going as they please.

Thanks,
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:27 pm

Hi Kan,

Thanks.
I'm able to stay in the no self 'state' longer
I think you are back to your root confusion. States come and go. They are transient in nature. They occur like clouds in a sky. Seeing no self (that the states are just coming and going but not to anyone) is all that is required. It is not a question of staying in the 'no-self' state as some kind of state!!

Back to father xmas. At some point you realised he didn't exist and then life carried on with you carrying round one less illusion. Once you see that there is no separate self life well carry on as before (you will drive your car, speak to a friend, cook supper etc) except you will be free of the core illusion that tends to generate the vast majority of your sufferring.

You won't be in some kind of fixed 'no-self' state. If this is an expectation then just drop it now.

:-)

Michael

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:36 pm

Hi Michael,

I believe you are correct - I think it feels like a state or phase to me because it comes in a burst and goes. But I guess I'm misunderstanding it as some sort of a transition to something else.

But as with other things I should not label this as such because as you'd mentioned, sometimes people see this slowly and sometimes like a burst, which doesn't necessarily mean a there is a change.

I'll continue with the boundary exercises. Anything else you think might help with getting out of this 'state change' mindset? I understand it when you explain it in the father Xmas context but perhaps I'm not really seeing it like that.

Thanks,
Kan

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MichaelD
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Re: The non existent self

Postby MichaelD » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:23 am

Hi Kan,

I hope you haven't sufferred in relation to posting as it hasn't been possible for the last few days due to a bot attack (no, I have no idea what that is!).

Can you tell me your experience exactly when you do a boundary excercise please.

So, you are relaxed, sitting quietly and seeing an apple, or with eyes closed birdsong is heard.

We know there is a belief in a self - drummed into you ever since you were first taught to identify with your name. Parenting, schooling and society has reinforced it ever since.

If it is there surely a line or boundary between the apple or birdsong can be found. Somewhere apple / birdsong must end and you begin right?

So where in direct experience of the present moment is that line / boundary.

If after that you still think there is a self - something that birdsong or apple gets to please tell me exactly to the centimetre where that subject, that self, resides.

Tell you what lets make that mm!!

Have fun searching! :-)

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Kan
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Re: The non existent self

Postby Kan » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:25 am

Hi Michael,
I hope you haven't sufferred in relation to posting as it hasn't been possible for the last few days due to a bot attack (no, I have no idea what that is!).
The bot needs some no self guidance as well so it can realize it's attacking ways :)

I'm in bad internet till Sunday so will respond after and focus on the exercise till then. But I had a very strong no boundary sound experience yesterday as I was listening to music on my headphones in the dark. I'll expand on this further on Sunday as well.

Thanks!
Kan


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