only that

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michele1
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only that

Postby michele1 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:54 am

Hi guys,

I've finally decided to pot on the site. I would like to have a one on one chat with somebody and take that last final step. I've explored the subject for a long time and feel at the end of the line. I am possibly a hard nut to crack.
Anyone who would like to work with me?
Love,

M

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Eloratea
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Re: only that

Postby Eloratea » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:12 pm

Hi Michele,

If you have seen how this works, and feel ready to engage honestly, we can start immediately :)

Do you have some particular expectations from this final step, as you call it?

When you mention „I“ - what does it refer to?
Is there two “you?” One being possibly a hard nut and the other observing and commenting the first one?

Love,
El

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michele1
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Re: only that

Postby michele1 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:32 pm

Dear Eloratea,

So nice to hear from you, and so soon. I thought I would bother you with details concerning my life situation, and why I think that I don't see the truth pointed out, but I will cut right to the chase. I just want to mention, if that's of any matter, that I'm a guy, as my name is confusing for most.
There is here most of the time a feeling of 'split mind' with an observer and a thought observed. I have had hints that that is just a mental construct and that the 'observing I' is only an inference. I feel however at the everyday level that the fear of emotions and thoughts keeps the mechanism in place. Can you relate to that?
My expectation is that through seeing the falsity of the I thought or perceive the presence of my real being, this mechanism of fear and all the negative mental constructs 'I' have of 'my' self will be dismissed as nonsense.
No there is no separate inside self, except as an assumption. Still when the mechanism of fear sets itself in motion it is felt like a mental cramp. Then I get lost in confusions like "how can I get rid of this or that other emotion or thought" even if a moment before I was fire-sure that I don't exist, there is only awareness, etc. etc..
Dear El, I'll try to stay more focused, I wanted to wonder off a little to explain why I feel I am not 'there'.
Thank you soo much.

Michele

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Eloratea
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Re: only that

Postby Eloratea » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:19 pm

Hi there!
If you think there is anything more from the background of relevance, feel free to share.
There is here most of the time a feeling of 'split mind' with an observer and a thought observed.
Nothing wrong with that. Simply there are thinking and also observing.
I feel however at the everyday level that the fear of emotions and thoughts keeps the mechanism in place.
Can you explain more this fear? It seems that there is no problem in observation but in kind of judging the thoughts end feelings and creating some tension in experience.
My expectation is that through seeing the falsity of the I thought or perceive the presence of my real being, this mechanism of fear and all the negative mental constructs 'I' have of 'my' self will be dismissed as nonsense.
What do you mean by falsity of the I thought? When some thought is real and when false?
Still when the mechanism of fear sets itself in motion it is felt like a mental cramp.
What is fear anyway? What it consists of? Ever considered fear to be a kind of protecting mechanism? Guarding something, some discovery?
Then I get lost in confusions like "how can I get rid of this or that other emotion or thought" even if a moment before I was fire-sure that I don't exist, there is only awareness, etc. etc…
First who is there to be lost in confusion? Who wants to get rid of this or that? Have a good look.
Aren't those just thoughts; causing the sensation, tension in the body because there is a resistance to some current experience? And with sensation it seems so real, but in reality such thoughts are just like clouds passing by and temporarily covering sky of awareness.

You can elaborate on this with as much words as you need, but as clearly as possible, please :)

Love

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michele1
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Re: only that

Postby michele1 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:43 am

Hi there.
OK let's open up the pandora vase :)
I do judge the content of my thoughts, especially those concerning 'me'. Not spiritual enough, not strong enough, not thinking independently, etc. Those who expose a vulnerability in me in front of others definitely create a defensive reaction, for example, fisical attraction toward another will engender a reaction ('you're not supposed to feel like that') to protect me from feelings of rejection. What I don't want to expose in short is my vulnerability.
As far as my background goes, officially my spiritual search started when I went through a huge crisis in my life that shattered my self image and threw me in a hellish world of self rejection. That split that I mention was acutized and I felt 'my mind' sort of turning against myself, in reaction to all attempts of self control on my part. All this psychological turmoil went curiously hand in hand with an understanding of advaita pointers, at least at the mental level (I know the I is not there, even though it still hurts, ouch..).
By falsity of the I thought I mean taking myself to be the thinker etc.
Another autobiographical note is that I perfectly recall the first time that the I thought came about. It was in the form "I am in this body and these are my thoughts" where previously there had been only unbounded presence of being. That was when I was young, but already since then I could perceive the paradox when I tried to 'get back there', in the wholeness that was previously felt. The more I tried the more I felt separate.
I feel a huge amount of resistence, you are right. The mind tries to protect itself from its own conceps. It's utterly ridiculous, hilarious and painful. In a way I put my hopes that in seeing that I'm not the central character in the story I will be able to let the mind alone and relax in the peace that I long for, and cannot get as the "I". I'm using common language here, with a lot of "I's" but I think you understand what I mean.
I hope I've been clear, a bit painful to go through this. Thank you for the opportunity of laying these things down. I haven't done it with anyone before. Don't want to miss this chance. Again, thank you and goodnight.
Love,
M

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Eloratea
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Re: only that

Postby Eloratea » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:15 am

Hello Michele,

Hope there is some more clarity after writing that.
Author quoted in my signature coined the term spiritual autolysis for the writing of inner stuff for looking its content better and seeing what is really true in it. And it is usually quite astonishing how many unquestioned beliefs are there.
So, this is something like that, but interactive and directly focused on seeing one particular point - that there is no separate self in reality.

I do judge the content of my thoughts, especially those concerning 'me'.
You still haven't answered my question what do you assume by word „I“?
Who is there to judge? Is it just a little voice in head, believed to be your self?
Not spiritual enough, not strong enough, not thinking independently, etc. Those who expose a vulnerability in me in front of others definitely create a defensive reaction, for example, fisical attraction toward another will engender a reaction ('you're not supposed to feel like that') to protect me from feelings of rejection. What I don't want to expose in short is my vulnerability.
This is very common human experience. But in reality those are just thoughts wrapped around the belief in self. I like the image of onion. There are lots of layers and nothing in the center. When you see noting is there, layers usually not fall away all at once, but the process begins.
As far as my background goes, officially my spiritual search started when I went through a huge crisis in my life that shattered my self image and threw me in a hellish world of self rejection. That split that I mention was acutized and I felt 'my mind' sort of turning against myself, in reaction to all attempts of self control on my part. All this psychological turmoil went curiously hand in hand with an understanding of advaita pointers, at least at the mental level (I know the I is not there, even though it still hurts, ouch..).
Here only helps facing the experience (of hurting, as any other) directly. Seeing from close what it is. It is always some thought-story plus body sensation. Leave aside the story, sit with the sensation and see how it just is, and passes, as any other appearance in awareness. Intellectual seeing as you know isn't enough it must be felt, experienced directly. But first it needs to be honest willingness to do that.
By falsity of the I thought I mean taking myself to be the thinker etc.
Can you stay a bit with this sentence and try to see who is taking himself to be a thinker. You obviously not a thinker if you take yourself to be it. Thinker seems also to be just an object in perception. Ponder on that.

Another question to examine: can you control the thoughts?

Another autobiographical note is that I perfectly recall the first time that the I thought came about. It was in the form "I am in this body and these are my thoughts" where previously there had been only unbounded presence of being. That was when I was young, but already since then I could perceive the paradox when I tried to 'get back there', in the wholeness that was previously felt. The more I tried the more I felt separate.
That wholeness is still here and now. Where it could be gone?
It is not perceived because something in awareness arises that clouds it. Some thoughts and feelings coming from unintegrated experiences, but it is always something based on belief in separation. And whatever might have happened or not - now it is just a story. Thoughts are telling the story of being separate, being hurt, abandoned, not loved...but you don't need to believe in their content; You can look at them and see how they operate, how they initiate feelings, influence behavior.

I feel a huge amount of resistence, you are right.
It is also very common experience, fighting what is and wanting something else.
But there isn't something else and only in acceptance of this experience unfolding right now and looking directly into it truth can be reveled.

With love,
El

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michele1
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Re: only that

Postby michele1 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:05 pm

Hi El,

Just wanted to say that I am going through those points and come back to you when I'll have elaborated. I don't want to give a pat answer. Talk to you in a while. Thanks!

M

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Eloratea
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Re: only that

Postby Eloratea » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:45 am

Sure,
till later.

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michele1
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Re: only that

Postby michele1 » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:15 pm

As far as I could see, seeing into the matter if there is a self, a my-self is like a question about pregnancy, with a definite yes or no answer. I am right now (quite) convinced: there is none.
This said I want to put it to the test. I haven't been but home these days, working on some exams I have next week, but I want to see if in the outside world this convinction holds water. I know I am going to feel challenged and mind is going to start spinning the same old ideas about 'me'. It has happened before, when I had been thinking I was through, and the seeing was done.
Your suggestions were by the way spot on, the thinker is also observed as a thought. I'll try to stay with the direct experience and see how it goes.
Talk to you soon,
love
M

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Eloratea
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Re: only that

Postby Eloratea » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:30 am

As far as I could see, seeing into the matter if there is a self, a my-self is like a question about pregnancy, with a definite yes or no answer. I am right now (quite) convinced: there is none.
This said I want to put it to the test.
It is ok to put it in test in real life. Just to be clear it is not about being convinced :) or believing. It is about first-hand experience. Yes, like with pregnancy, you know it. You kind of see it.
I know I am going to feel challenged and mind is going to start spinning the same old ideas about 'me'.
It is ok, no need to believe in those thoughts.
It has happened before, when I had been thinking I was through, and the seeing was done.
Who is there to be trapped in thoughts, or to be afraid of it?
Your suggestions were by the way spot on, the thinker is also observed as a thought.
I'll try to stay with the direct experience and see how it goes.
Yes, that is the right direction :)

Love,
El

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michele1
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Re: only that

Postby michele1 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:41 pm

Dear El,

Hi, just a few thoughts..
'Beingness' is right now understood to be the space. The concept I seems to locate a 'me' residing in this body, but it is seen to be an artificial division of wholeness. Thoughts arise, and seem to imply a thinker, but that is seen to be conceptual. I always assumed the world to be contained in my mind, which is perhaps correct but conceptual, while now it's starting to feel like the outside world is all there is (no inside, just outside if I can speak that dualistically). It's a bit wavery though. Still a lot of periods of thinking as the me, while the space-like wholeness is (seemingly) ignored.

I had a nagging question... when will (I?) permanently abide in the space (which now as it is formulated makes me laugh). That is really not a question that makes sense, but still I feel a little bit unsure about this.. not 100% convinced (who?). Still there arise some 'I got it' feelings for example. At this point should I persist in this seeing until it is fire-sure? In your experience did it take time to settle down in the seeing?
Much gratitude for ruthless comments.

Michele

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Eloratea
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Re: only that

Postby Eloratea » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:38 pm

Hi Michele,
'Beingness' is right now understood to be the space. The concept I seems to locate a 'me' residing in this body, but it is seen to be an artificial division of wholeness. Thoughts arise, and seem to imply a thinker, but that is seen to be conceptual. I always assumed the world to be contained in my mind, which is perhaps correct but conceptual, while now it's starting to feel like the outside world is all there is (no inside, just outside if I can speak that dualistically). It's a bit wavery though.
Well, if no inside, than it can't be either outside :) Just this unitary experience, without distinct border.
Still a lot of periods of thinking as the me, while the space-like wholeness is (seemingly) ignored.
There is no you, but thinking in learned patterns, including the assumption of the “I –thinker”.
Only looking and seeing can break it.
I had a nagging question... when will (I?) permanently abide in the space (which now as it is formulated makes me laugh).
It is funny. You feel the falseness of the I, so how it can abide in that space. When it is just a thought in that space. Which already is and I is a filter confining the perception of it.
That is really not a question that makes sense, but still I feel a little bit unsure about this.. not 100% convinced (who?). Still there arise some 'I got it' feelings for example. At this point should I persist in this seeing until it is fire-sure?
Yes. This is very simple to see. If you focus and honestly look.
Question is - Is there an honest willingness to see the truth?
In your experience did it take time to settle down in the seeing?
Yes and it is always new experience. No ending so far.

Best,
El

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michele1
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Re: only that

Postby michele1 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:10 pm

Hej El,

I apologize for having disappeared. I got disappointed that my seeing through had not been conclusive and kept wondering around in other seeking alleys...
I whish I could get another chanche, a blank slate if that would be ok for you. I have been swallowing so many nonduality pointers i have made indigestion. At the same time i feel so close it completely dumbfounds me that "i still dont get it"!!!
All the best.
M

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Eloratea
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Re: only that

Postby Eloratea » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:24 pm

Wow :)
Let's try. This should be simple, actually if you let go of all expectations and open space for new perspective.
http://eloratea.blogspot.com/2012/11/minds-essence.html

Is there separate you in any aspect of your experience; Some actor behind, seeing, hearing, thinking, experiencing?

Warm greetings!

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michele1
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Re: only that

Postby michele1 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:12 pm

Hey Eloratea, yes, wow..
Sorry for replying so late, partly due that I forgot I wouldn't receive notifications and didn't see your reply. In the meanwhile I started a thread with a fellow compatriot of mine and he's helping substantially. I also wanted to answer definitively and from the heart to your question but it's been dragging for quite some time.
In short:
I arises only in thought. I see I hear, I think (big one..). "I think" refers to the presence of a higher cognizing/thinking system, self referencial.
Where I get stuck is that when i say I, it feels like a presence with a location here in the middle which i can never grab but sort of feels unshakable (although it's only there when i think about it). I feel very stuck comes up to say, also very self referencial, or, I want out of this loop.. etc.
What's going on here?
All the best! Love,
M


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