Realizing Truth

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Nicodemus
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:25 pm

Realizing Truth

Postby Nicodemus » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:27 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I see that the goal of LU is to help people realize the nature of existence, that there is only consciousness, one universal consciousness, and that the limited experience of individuality is but a dream of this consciousness, a dream that like any dream, eventually reaches an end.

What are you looking for at LU?
To have help to realize the mentioned truth in an experiential, deep and genuine way, rather than in a purely theoretical or intellectual way. And with this have a necessary basis to realize who i truly am, become a liberated soul, be permanently free from suffering, and exist in a way that is really meaningful and worthwhile. (All these things by continuing the spiritual path on the basis of the said realization).

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To have help understanding the nature of existence, and finally get permanently and deeply, the teaching that i don't exist as an individual and that my true nature is that of universal undivided consciousness. So, to realize that i'm not just this small thing over here, and that the idea that i am is an illusion.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I started, years ago, to become involved in spirituality. At first i practiced a path based on the idea of individual self and achievement, a kind of buddhism/yoga system. Later i started practicing what i wanted from the beginning of my journey; Theurgy, a system based also on personal striving, self improvement, and ego activity, but with the fascinations of magic mixed with mysticism. Finally i left all this and started Dzogchen/Ati Yoga, being driven to it by circumstances, a person, and the Universe, even without my direct interest or motivation.
So now i'm looking to see the Truth of Existence and wake up from illusion of individual self.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Realizing Truth

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:55 pm

Hi Nicodemus,

Is that what you would like to be called? My name is Stacy and I could be your guide, if you would like.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Here are instructions on how to use the Quote function:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Ask any questions you have, and if you are clear on all of the above, we can get started.

Warmly,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Nicodemus
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:25 pm

Re: Realizing Truth

Postby Nicodemus » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:56 am

Thanks for your response Stacy :)

My true name is Gonçalo, you can call me by this name.
Of couse, i'd love to have you as my guide, thanks. :)

I had already read the disclaimer and even if i run risks associated with this due to my health, i am absolutely determined to do it, since waking up from the dream of illusion is the only thing that keeps me alive and gives my life any meaning, if i couldn't, i wouldn't be doing anything in this world.

Ok, i'll now address the questions.
How will life change?

If with this i realize Emptiness (rather than just in a superficial intelectual way), i expect to become more detached from things happening to me, and perhaps be in a more pleasant state of mind. Or perhaps that may not happen, but i at least expect to understand and see things as they are, and this in itself will help at the goal of awakening which i see as being free from suffering, in a different consciousness, and happy and knowing.


How will you change?

I'm not sure how i will change, but i suspect i could be more calm, more easy going, maybe other positive things. But the main change would maybe not be visible externally i think. (That would be knowing the nature of existence).


What will be different?

Maybe it will mark a change in my life. Maybe after i realize Emptiness i'll see myself and the world differently, and maybe this will have some positive impact on how i deal with life, thought i imagine that this in itself will not change much (if it does at all), and my path will continue.


What is missing?



The first thing that came to my mind when i was about to answer was 'just happiness'... but then i noticed that there's something beyond this, it's as if i know there's so much more than all this but i'm blind and can't see it. I want to 'become who i am', wake up from a dream that has lasted for very very long, as all this has lost it's captivation... What is missing is ability to see reality.




I have one question.
Does happiness result from awakening?

Thanks again Stacy, i hope to have the discernment and depth of mind to be able to use your help.

~Gonçalo

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Realizing Truth

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:14 am

Hello,

Last question first:
I have one question.
Does happiness result from awakening?
Yes & No. Life pretty much goes on as usual. There may be periods of joy, yes. There will also be all of the usual emotions that you are used to having. Let me explain that in 3 ways. One, this is more about feeling "more," than it is about feeling "better," (or "happy"). At the same time, I find I can be very peaceful in the midst of the anger, pain, sorrow or whatever - but not every time.

Another way to explain it is using the yin/yang symbol. Life is about the WHOLE THING - not just the white or just the black. ALL of it.

Still a 3rd way to describe it is that it's like a pendulum. Pendulums swing back and forth, back and forth. We usually follow all that swinging from one extreme to the other. Waking up, seeing no self, can help us find the Still Point from which the pendulum moves. Mathematically, that point never moves.

As mentioned before, seeing no self is only a first step. Then there is much to unravel and in the course of that there can be a lot of what is labeled "negative" emotions, etc. Remember the disclaimer. This is not a solution to what are perceived as "problems."


I'd like to check in about a few things in your initial replies, possibly clear up some misconceptions before we get started.
that the limited experience of individuality is but a dream of this consciousness, a dream that like any dream, eventually reaches an end.
Dream has been used as a metaphor and awakening is a term used to describe what happens here. It isn't quite that it "reaches an end;" it is more that it never existed.
who i truly am, become a liberated soul, be permanently free from suffering, and exist in a way that is really meaningful and worthwhile. (A
If there is no self, who has a soul? Freedom from suffering happens and usually it is not exactly permanent, particularly not at first. "Meaningful and worthwhile" are philosophies that are not that useful once we see through self, thoughts, time, body, etc. Everything just IS. The story of "meaningful and worthwhile," will be seen to have no . . . meaning. :)

These are just things to be aware of. The Direct Pointing will help you see that there is no self, which is just a beginning. After that, there are usually many stressful and untrue beliefs to unravel. It can take a while.

If you are here looking for happiness and permanent freedom from suffering - no, that cannot be promised.

These expectations of happiness and permanent freedom from suffering will get in your way & likely keep you from seeing no self. You will be forever searching, forever looking to a future that does not exist and missing what is right in front of you if you stop all of that. To see no self, you must stop and LOOK NOW. There is no other place to be.

This can be seen as quite frightening sometimes.

I'll pause here and ask if you still want to continue.

Warmly,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Nicodemus
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:25 pm

Re: Realizing Truth

Postby Nicodemus » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:47 am

Yes of course i want to continue.

In fact those and other similar teachings were given to me by my current teacher, but seems i have much difficulty integrating this in my mind deeply. I tend to forget this stuff and cling again to my ego over and over...
But yeah, i tried to have that mindset.

I had the idea this was just all the beginning, if things go forward that's good enough... I'm here for that.

User avatar
Nicodemus
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:25 pm

Re: Realizing Truth

Postby Nicodemus » Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:12 pm

I just want an end to all this. I've passed so many years of suffering, dragging myself without interest in life. I gave up of everything, and came to a point where words and language don't even allow to say what i wan't to express.

I am much better nowadays, but what i've went through transformed me into something different. I lost my inner drive or energy and attachment to life, for me, nothing is worth anything nowadays.
I see Liberation as an end to all, a definite and permanent end to something that i want to leave behind, this life, this awareness, this condition, everything.
To be not just this here, but everything that exists, and maybe still keep part of my individuality at the same time, if by then it's worthwhile.

I just want all this to end, and i think not just suffering, but all limitation.

This must have an end, and the time for it should be now, as far as it feels to me.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Realizing Truth

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:47 pm

Hi Gonçalo,

I must ask, although you say you are much better - are you suicidal now? Have you ever been?

Wanting suffering to end is completely understandable. Once you see that there is no self, yes, much of that will drop away and over time, most, if not all will. Another thing is that suffering is not seen the same way. That may not make sense right now, but it will.

I'd like to answer many of the things you have said - and, I want to check in on suicidal thinking, first, to see how that is for you right now. OK?

Thank you so much,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Nicodemus
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:25 pm

Re: Realizing Truth

Postby Nicodemus » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:10 pm

Hey :)

Yes i had suicidal thoughts in the past, sometimes my emotional suffering was so strong that i constantly begged God to die.
I somewhat "tried" to concretize this, despite knowing that it wouldn't solve anything, given my knowledge of spirituality, but i was never serious. I never truly had the guts to do it.

Nowadays i'm much better, and i have been improving progressively after the end of the Rahu phase in my astral chart (which was particularly harsh).
Sometimes i still have negative thoughts, but they don't affect me seriously now. They come sometimes and then they go, and i don't keep resent. In the past i felt a great revolt towards the world, but this has eased a lot.

It was all that i've went through that led me to seek spirituality though. I believe it was my "Dark Night of the Soul".

Thanks for helping me Stacy :)

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Realizing Truth

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:23 pm

Hi Gonçalo,

You are quite welcome.

So, remember that all we do here at LU is guide to seeing no self. If you find yourself feeling suicidal, please let me know so that you can address that, because that is not addressed here. We are not counselors and there are limits to what can be done via the internet. OK? Promise?

You have a lot of expectations. That's normal. You want to stop suffering. Of course, that's also normal.

Focus on just doing the exercises. That will help keep you out of the expectations. Simply follow the instructions in the moment. OK?

What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been and never will be? That "I" or "me" or "self" is a made-up concept that has no basis in reality and never did?

Looking forward to your reply.

Warmly,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Nicodemus
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:25 pm

Re: Realizing Truth

Postby Nicodemus » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:48 pm

Ok, don't worry. :)
What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been and never will be? That "I" or "me" or "self" is a made-up concept that has no basis in reality and never did?
I don't understand it or believe it, at least as i see the idea expressed at first impression. I just imagine that 'realizing that there is no self' makes sense if it means expanding our awareness to encompass Everything that exists. But when that happens it seems to me there is still a self, it's just a universal, infinite, boundless, single Self.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Realizing Truth

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:29 pm

Hi again,

So, this is how to LOOK, when an exercise asks you to LOOK at something:

Coloured Socks

There is a big difference between "knowing" that there is nothing to give up and "seeing" that there is nothing to give up when you SEE that there is no self.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are! Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking. For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

This "self" you believe in. Checking an online dictionary definition, we find:

self

noun

1. a person's essential being that distinguishes them from others, especially considered as the object of introspection or reflexive action.

synonyms: ego, I, oneself, persona, person, identity, character, personality, psyche, soul, spirit, mind, (inner) being

And you wrote:
What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been and never will be? That "I" or "me" or "self" is a made-up concept that has no basis in reality and never did?
I don't understand it or believe it, at least as i see the idea expressed at first impression. I just imagine that 'realizing that there is no self' makes sense if it means expanding our awareness to encompass Everything that exists. But when that happens it seems to me there is still a self, it's just a universal, infinite, boundless, single Self.
Since the definition of "self," means that you are separate from others, in the dictionary definition, it cannot mean
"a universal, infinite, boundless, single Self."
It is true that One Self & No Self are virtually synonymous; however, there is immense benefit in LOOKING to find No Self. There is humility and reality in that. If you always think of it as One Self, it can become grandiose and unreal.

Can you see that?

We are NOT going for new beliefs here.

It is clear seeing we will find.

We often say that it is like seeing that there is no Santa Claus. Once you SEE that your parents are putting out gifts, and eating milk and cookies, you cannot UN -SEE it. Same with No Self. I will not ask you to "believe" anything, just SEE it.

(I do not know what country you are in, so if Santa Claus is not a tradition there, please use something that is, some made up figure that children believe in and adults have seen is not there.)

If you are clear on how to LOOK at the socks for their color and not just think about them, please do this exercise. If not, let me know and we'll work on that first.

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can.

Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories, which are all actual/direct experience & report back how it goes.


Also, keep in mind that we are not here to have a dialogue about beliefs and theories. This is about doing. I will give you exercises, you will do them, then report back. We will talk about those, mostly.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Nicodemus
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:25 pm

Re: Realizing Truth

Postby Nicodemus » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:58 pm

Hi again,

So, this is how to LOOK, when an exercise asks you to LOOK at something:

Coloured Socks

There is a big difference between "knowing" that there is nothing to give up and "seeing" that there is nothing to give up when you SEE that there is no self.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are! Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking. For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Very clear :) You explain it in a very simple and easy way!
This "self" you believe in. Checking an online dictionary definition, we find:

self

noun

1. a person's essential being that distinguishes them from others, especially considered as the object of introspection or reflexive action.

synonyms: ego, I, oneself, persona, person, identity, character, personality, psyche, soul, spirit, mind, (inner) being

And you wrote:
What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been and never will be? That "I" or "me" or "self" is a made-up concept that has no basis in reality and never did?
I don't understand it or believe it, at least as i see the idea expressed at first impression. I just imagine that 'realizing that there is no self' makes sense if it means expanding our awareness to encompass Everything that exists. But when that happens it seems to me there is still a self, it's just a universal, infinite, boundless, single Self.
Since the definition of "self," means that you are separate from others, in the dictionary definition, it cannot mean
"a universal, infinite, boundless, single Self."
It is true that One Self & No Self are virtually synonymous; however, there is immense benefit in LOOKING to find No Self. There is humility and reality in that. If you always think of it as One Self, it can become grandiose and unreal.

Can you see that?
Yes, i understand, perhaps that is a much better way of seeing and labeling It. Would it hinder realization if i saw it in a 'grandiose and unreal' way? How so?
I don't see how it could be a problem (though it intuitively seems incorrect).
We are NOT going for new beliefs here.

It is clear seeing we will find.

We often say that it is like seeing that there is no Santa Claus. Once you SEE that your parents are putting out gifts, and eating milk and cookies, you cannot UN -SEE it. Same with No Self. I will not ask you to "believe" anything, just SEE it.

(I do not know what country you are in, so if Santa Claus is not a tradition there, please use something that is, some made up figure that children believe in and adults have seen is not there.)
Haha yes we have it here, i'm Western (from Portugal).
If you are clear on how to LOOK at the socks for their color and not just think about them, please do this exercise. If not, let me know and we'll work on that first.

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can.

Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories, which are all actual/direct experience & report back how it goes.


Sounds easy :)
I'll start right tomorrow, it's very late here now, so i'll be going to bed. I'll report how it went.
Also, keep in mind that we are not here to have a dialogue about beliefs and theories. This is about doing. I will give you exercises, you will do them, then report back. We will talk about those, mostly.

Much love,
Got it :)
Thank you so much.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Realizing Truth

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:07 pm

I also went to mention you don't need to quote my entire post. Just two pieces that you need.

Thanks!
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Nicodemus
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:25 pm

Re: Realizing Truth

Postby Nicodemus » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:45 pm

Sorry for the long quotes Stacy, i forgot.

My results until now regarding the exercise you suggested:
In the beginning i started feeling more detached from my experience of life, seeing images, sounds, thoughts, perceptions and sensations as less important, not being so immersed in them. The type of perception which was more difficult to detach from was 'sensation'.
This lasted only in the beginning, then it started becoming more mechanical or mindless. At this point i'm doing it less frequently and i don't notice that idea of detachment so much.

When doing this while people were around, it was different, It felt a bit wrong to detach from the sounds and perceptions of people because it's real people, (my family btw).

Should i continue to do the exercise for the rest of today, perhaps tomorrow too?

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1178
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Realizing Truth

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:11 pm

Good morning,

Let me help make the instructions a little bit clearer for you, okay?

The exercise says nothing about Detachment in the instructions, does it? This is not what we are doing. We don't care about the story of Detachment. That is just a thought arising and the content does not matter at all.

Yes, keep doing the exercise and please keep doing it with anything and everything, people, television, tree, it makes no difference whatsoever. In fact, I definitely want to see one with people now that you raise that question.

Please report in the following format & do a few of them in your next post.

for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories, which are all actual/direct experience & report back how it goes.


Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests