Dan1

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Daniel1
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Dan1

Postby Daniel1 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:52 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Facilitation of process where implicit assumptions about self (and others) are deconstructed. This through interaction with another human being, witch have the role of mirroring these assumptions. Mirroring of these implicit assumptions, if done in an honest and consistent manner, and in a trustworthy environment, will allow deconstration.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for at person, who will be able to take the role of facilitator and reflect my implicit assumptions. I also need to meet others who feel they have realized a more consistent way of being, because I have that very stubborn assumptiona. that realization of our true nature (ie, the absence of self as a center) is not an easy task, but rather difficult, complicated and dangerous, that only specially selected people can achieve. Therefore, I would be grateful to talk with others who have realized and that can help me deconstruct some of these restrictive beliefs.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope to feel confident about the person who wants to talk to me and I hope this perosn will possess skills to help me move on. hope to talk to someone who could help me remove some of my doubts and I hope that the perosn that will work with me will be able to accommodate my initial doubts. I also believe that I will benefit greatly from the conversation since I have spent some years reading and investigating the problem.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have used approx. 25 years of reading, and even investigation. Meditated, seen youtube video and participated in the satsang given of people or individuals who see themselves as being enlightened. Unfortunately, I can feel that my many ideas about enlightenment represent sabotaging significance more than they help. The strategies I have used were most inspired by Jiddu Krishnamurti, and I have received inspiration for deconstruction through the reading of u.g. Krishnamurti.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?:
10

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Andrei
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Re: Dan1

Postby Andrei » Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:25 am

Hi Daniel,

Welcome to LU. I would be happy to help you with your inquiry.

For starters, when you say self (or ego, or "I", or person, etc.), what do you mean by it? And I dont mean just a generic definition but anything and everything that feels "personal" to you. Where is the self located?

cheers


Andrei

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Daniel1
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Re: Dan1

Postby Daniel1 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:39 pm

I'm really glad you'd like to help me get a better clarity!
When I look, I can not locate the self (ego, I, person)– its not inside the body, so Im very clear about the fact that this sense of “I” is generated all the time from somewhere and creates holograms, kind of story with a somatic experience of vulnerable me who lives a vulnerable body. When I look here and now without looking through the lens of words and labels, there only some form of transparency, acknowledging everything at ones, as some moving textures and light, which appears in a space without borders, and where "I" are just a small manifesto in this great living dance. But the problem is that when im not looking, when Im unattended during the day, this sense of “I” builds itself up, takes over, and become the center of measurement – it feels like Im in the body, victim of events and unfair life. Than the fear of pain is very dominating, and strategies of avoidance is very dominating. So despite the fact, that the transparency of the self has been seen through so my Story has unfortunately tremendous momentum and nostalgic investment that can easily take over when I'm not aware… Since the situation has been going on for many years, I start to be curious about what kind of assumptions do I have about myself that I do not see yet .... which I have not deconstructed yet.

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Re: Dan1

Postby Andrei » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:47 am

Im very clear about the fact that this sense of “I” is generated all the time from somewhere and creates holograms, kind of story with a somatic experience of vulnerable me who lives a vulnerable body.
Good, so it's more like a story? A thought? Maybe a few sensations threw in the pot to make the story more tasteful?
Are those thoughts and sensations "yours" or do they just happen as well?

Than the fear of pain is very dominating, and strategies of avoidance is very dominating.
Bring that fear back to your awareness and stay with it. Is there such a thing as "fear" or is it just a label for a bunch of sensations? Can those sensations harm you in anyway?

Also, when I say "There is no you", is there any tension, any arising fear?

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Re: Dan1

Postby Daniel1 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:24 am

1)” Bring that fear back to your awareness and stay with it. Is there such a thing as "fear" or is it just a label for a bunch of sensations? Can those sensations harm you in anyway?”

Daniel:Have been out and go for a walk - there was a lot of anxiety and pain. The knowledge of “me” with all of its preference was going crazy about the future: the new job which I have started with, and dislike (the me says: I hate the location of workplace it is cheerless and at the bad side of town, as well as colleagues are not people i'm feeling good and secure to be with), as well as worrying about some somatic pain I have in my throat, as well as cheerless thoughts about getting old… som the fear is not just a label here – it alive and have a great momentum. The pain in fear is the spoiled vulnerable child wanting to hold on, and get more of the good stuff. I can see that resistance and struggle make so much so much noise and pain which makes/creates a sense of “me”. When i keep looking trying to locate this I – I cant se where it is, but is feels very much inside of me (nostalgic, brutal, fear, hope, resist, trying to secure itself by being better than others, trying to avoid painful situations - and eventually life has more and more situations be avoided, than situations I looking forward to). The me feeling, I can see now, is like shadows of thoughts – one cant separate them. When I look closer, I can see this stream of thoughts, is not real picture of reality, but just some very categorically way of seeing – categories which It is filled up with social mediated meaning which I did not even contribute to…but still I feel its ME who is the victim to all that meanings.

2) “Good, so it's more like a story? A thought? Maybe a few sensations threw in the pot to make the story more tasteful? Are those thoughts and sensations "yours" or do they just happen as well?

Daniel :The thoughts sensations feel a lot like they are mine unfortunately

3) Bring that fear back to your awareness and stay with it. Is there such a thing as "fear" or is it just a label for a bunch of sensations? Can those sensations harm you in anyway?

Daniel: I feel that fear can harm me, because it creates such a great preparedness, which gives life to categorically defensive interactions strategies with the world around me. The me looks at the world as a very dangerous place, and thus creating uncomfortable ways of experiencing the world.

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Re: Dan1

Postby Andrei » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:30 pm

som the fear is not just a label here – it alive and have a great momentum. The pain in fear is the spoiled vulnerable child wanting to hold on, and get more of the good stuff.
What does "just a label" means? If you want things to change, you need to see through all those stories/beliefs you take for granted. For that you need to deconstruct them, find out what they are made of.
My question was, what is fear? Is fear an entity? A biological function? An emotion? A sensation? A necromancer with a pointy hat? After you come up with an answer you take that and deconstruct it as well. Until there is nothing left. Poof. Gone. (Of course, not necessarily wit fear, but in general when it's about beliefs)
If you can see through the illusion of fear just like that, that would be great, but it's not that easy. Here is why deconstructing comes in handy.

The thoughts sensations feel a lot like they are mine unfortunately
No worries, we'll take each and every one of them. Just wanted to know what you identify with.
So let's take thoughts. Can you think and choose a thought right now?

Same with sensations. What makes them "yours"?

Bring that fear back to your awareness and stay with it. Is there such a thing as "fear" or is it just a label for a bunch of sensations? Can those sensations harm you in anyway?
Daniel: I feel that fear can harm me, because it creates such a great preparedness, which gives life to categorically defensive interactions strategies with the world around me. The me looks at the world as a very dangerous place, and thus creating uncomfortable ways of experiencing the world.
well, the world is a dangerous place :D
Is it fear that harms you or the sensations you associate with it?
For example, where do you sense fear? Where in your body do you feel it? (Don't be surprised if it's several places where it activates, depending on the topic.)

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Re: Dan1

Postby Daniel1 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:06 pm

Thank you very much Andrei, I appreciate your investment in my situation and can feel your faith and trust in the process - so I am really happy for that!
Q: “My question was, what is fear? Is fear an entity? A biological function? An emotion? A sensation? A necromancer with a pointy hat? After you come up with an answer you take that and deconstruct it as well. Until there is nothing left”
A: When Im looking at fear, encouraged by the perception you inspire me with, I see fear as a story…and looking closer then it looks more like an (unpleasant) sensation, and looking closer then it’s a movement, and there is no one there looking at that movement…then after a some time it gats even pleasant to follow the movement …and the looking gats even more sharp with some more curiosity and enjoyment. After that there is a period with much tranquility, some stillness . So that what’s happen when the looking is very sharp…and something about the process of writing with you makes the looking more sharp…maybe it helps to be challenged abit.
So there was a lot of seeing in the past few dags through the illusion of fear, and I feel it doesn’t bite as hard anymore, and the focus is now more on looking and lass on automatic defending.

Q: “Can you think and choose a thought right now?”
A:When there is clear looking I see that I cant choose a thought, and it helps to see that the even the thing that say “I don’t want that thought” og “ I want to hold on to that thought” its not “me” but just some dead automatic process.

Q: Same with sensations. What makes them "yours"?
A: When there is a clear seeing there is not so much that identifies with sensation – it starts with looking at the sensation, and wondering who/what is the I/thing that looking (as it feels in the beginning that there some entity in the body that feeling all that )…then starts the seeing through all the knowledge that labels this sensation subjectively, and when the looking can’t find nothing, everything gets quite transparent… for example today when I was in the train, and there was clear looking, the body felt light and there was softness around me I never felt so clear before, but it was in a way very ordinary.

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Re: Dan1

Postby Andrei » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:23 am

When Im looking at fear, encouraged by the perception you inspire me with, I see fear as a story…and looking closer then it looks more like an (unpleasant) sensation, and looking closer then it’s a movement, and there is no one there looking at that movement…then after a some time it gats even pleasant to follow the movement …and the looking gats even more sharp with some more curiosity and enjoyment.
That is perfect. Indeed, after a while when you keep looking you discover a certain beauty in all these sensations, even those one labels as negative or painful. (Of course if the sensations are not too sharp.)
And now that you got the hang of it, you can just stay in DE whenever you sense anything fear related.

When there is clear looking I see that I cant choose a thought, and it helps to see that the even the thing that say “I don’t want that thought” og “ I want to hold on to that thought” its not “me” but just some dead automatic process.
Are you clear about this? When there are episodes when the mind takes over and start weaving stories, can you see them as stories or are there any doubts at all that the mind/thoughts functions independently of a "you"?

Also, is there a self that controls breathing? that walks? that does daily activities?

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Re: Dan1

Postby Daniel1 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:30 pm

Some very demanding days wither lots of fear, I will write soon

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Re: Dan1

Postby Daniel1 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:24 am

Hello again Andrei, thanks for waiting for me!

There have been some very demanding days, many problems at work, it's as if I lost my filter, as if I lost some of my robustness and things just came through me… There have been situations in which much great anxiety has been triggered, as well as other situations that have triggered old feelings ... especially in connection with attachment to others, fear of losing, fear of making a decision, fear of someone want to hurt me or my family.
What is different this time, is that these extreme strong emotions are so stretched that they about drive me mad, but then disappear completely, as if they have never been there and leave a sense of cleanness… feeling that things are clean… but there is no one who can enjoy this cleanness…So now there is now some kind of confusion, lack of sense of direction and meaning, It is very difficult to take control of things, for example, to take an initiative to find a new job (I have just been fired)… So I have to say that I have never been in such a big vacuum before, I'm really hard to get on ... and unfortunately there is some kind of search still … a voice in my head says "I'm not there yet" I have to work harder to make deconstructive writing (Jed Mckenna), I have to go to some Satsang, to get enlightened, Im wasting my time…so I would like to know I you can say something that could help me…

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Re: Dan1

Postby Andrei » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:12 am

You need to take one step at a time and try to make sense of it all. If it's all a mumbo jumbo of worries and fears and ideas from McKenna you're not going to get anywhere. McKenna is more of a clown than the real deal, but there is something he is right about - take one step at a time and deconstruct everything until there is nothing left. I think he says something about finding the truth? There is no such thing. That's just a label as well. You just go on and on until there is nothing left and you rejoice in that stillness. That's all.

So take one step at a time. There is no hurry, nowhere to go, and at the end of the day you will still have all the things you have already (including the shitty ones unfortunately lol), with one difference - there won't be a "you" to label something as good or bad, desirable or unwanted, etc.
What I can do is point you there but you will have to do the work. You're all you have. That sounds like a paradox but hey, don't look at the words, look where they point to.
You can start by answering the questions I ask, for instance the ones from my previous comment.

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Re: Dan1

Postby Daniel1 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:20 pm

Thank you for helping me get my focus back, and emphasizing the need to take one step at a time!

The turbulent period that has characterized me has arisen because I have bought into some of the stories that the mind has evoked. Now looking deeply into these stories, there is clear seeing of the nostalgic investment in these stories. The “I” occurs when these stories are taken as being true. As I look through this tendency, a broader sense of space occurs. The stories are no longer abstract thinking and feeling of anxiety, but they are transformed and become a movement in the body. The senses become sharper and there is clear awareness of nature around me. At this moment the tree moving moves something in me too, and there is kind of awareness that sees everything but does not assign labels - my body, my mind, and the tree are all objects in this consciousness. The feeling of “I” is being absent in this observation and when "I" is back then it is clear seeing that this “I” is just transparent.
As you have recommended, I have looked back on some of your questions, and tried to work with them.

Q:”When there are episodes when the mind takes over and start weaving stories, can you see them as stories or are there any doubts at all that the mind/thoughts functions independently of a "you"?

A: I can see them now just as stories, without any independent life outside of me. Eg. despite the fact that there are many things now in my life that can make me worried, there is no real response in the form of anxiety or concern to thoughts like "the situation is very problematic, Daniel1, you are have to work hard to prepare yourself and avoid an economic disaster”

Q: is there a self that controls breathing? that walks? that does daily activities?

A: There is a clear feeling that there is no “I” which is in control of life. There is a clear feeling that “I” can not predict/create the next moment and that this is not in “my” hands. There is a feeling that “I” have no influence on the body's functions, no influence on my choices and motivation.
The “I” is still here most of the time, but now there is some kind of awareness around “it”, it cant sneaks under the radar, and when “I” comes and trying to dominate – then something becomes very curious and looks even closer at the “I” and its functions, and after a while, even this feeling of "I" disappears and I get in touch with a more fascinating vivid movement under the “I”.
So in a way, I see again and again that the “I” is not real, but it's not because I can not find "I” – the “I” jumps up again and again, but it evaporates when I look a little deeper.

Q: My question was, what is fear? Is fear an entity? A biological function? An emotion? A sensation? A necromancer with a pointy hat? After you come up with an answer you take that and deconstruct it as well. Until there is nothing left. Poof. Gone. (Of course, not necessarily wit fear, but in general when it's about beliefs)
If you can see through the illusion of fear just like that, that would be great, but it's not that easy. Here is why deconstructing comes in handy.

A: There have been lots of looking at fear and lots of learning about anxiety here in the last period as you have read in my previous messages. Because there has been so much anxiety over many different themes, I had the opportunity to go through the process of looking through fear and seeing many of the common denominator of fear. I have learned about the fears function in defending and guarding all kind of dimensions of the “I”, and being again and again through the painful process of opening up and feeling the fear, looking into it until there is only a living movement left, there is now a new response to fear – something opens op when fear comes, and the fear disappears. (Although the fear disappears and there is less focus on the mental process of thoughts that can still be very unpleasant pain in the body that is related to the “anxiety”. The pain in the body can stay for many hours, but it's not a problem because awareness of these bodily pain / sensation, in some way develops a sense of silence and vigilance).

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Re: Dan1

Postby Andrei » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:40 pm

So in a way, I see again and again that the “I” is not real, but it's not because I can not find "I” – the “I” jumps up again and again, but it evaporates when I look a little deeper.
You're talking like there's an actual "thing", some entity, that pops up every now and then and which bears the label "I".
Can you describe it? Is it a bodily function, a thought, or a sensation you take out of it's original context and build a story around it?

Q: is there a self that controls breathing? that walks? that does daily activities?
A: There is a clear feeling that there is no “I” which is in control of life. There is a clear feeling that “I” can not predict/create the next moment and that this is not in “my” hands. There is a feeling that “I” have no influence on the body's functions, no influence on my choices and motivation.
What does "a clear feeling" means? You need to be certain. Look and you see. There is no maybe.

Not sure if I mentioned.
Here we use a technique called Direct Experience aka Direct Pointing.
DE is the original input one gets through SENSATIONS and SENSES, that tension you feel in your arm before labelling it as good (a tickle) or bad (a burn), the noise you hear before you interpret it as coming from a vehicle or elsewhere. DE is what is, prior to any sort of interpretations done by the mind.

Now, look again. In DE, is there an "I" that control anything, that chooses anything, that is afraid of anything?
DE = certainty; that which is. Everything else is mind.

I have learned about the fears function in defending and guarding all kind of dimensions of the “I”, and being again and again through the painful process of opening up and feeling the fear, looking into it until there is only a living movement left, there is now a new response to fear – something opens op when fear comes, and the fear disappears.
You seem to go through a lot of sensations tied to fear or anxiety. You need to know I'm in no way a specialist in the field. I have, well had, averagely stances of fear or anxiety happening. Most of them are gone. I still fear bears when I hike in the mountains lol.
So what I'm saying is, if you have a more complicated situation, not sure I am the right person to talk to.
All I can help you with is to see that there is no such thing as "fear" or "anxiety". They are just sensations.
However if you feel a lot of them going on, could that mean you have a condition that requires medical care?

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Re: Dan1

Postby Daniel1 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:42 am

Andrei:” You seem to go through a lot of sensations tied to fear or anxiety. You need to know I'm in no way a specialist in the field. I have, well had, averagely stances of fear or anxiety happening. Most of them are gone. I still fear bears when I hike in the mountains lol.
So what I'm saying is, if you have a more complicated situation, not sure I am the right person to talk to.
All I can help you with is to see that there is no such thing as "fear" or "anxiety". They are just sensations.
However if you feel a lot of them going on, could that mean you have a condition that requires medical care”.
Daniel1: Thank you for your concern, and I'm sorry if I've given you the wrong impression due to my tendency for dramatic terminology . Of course, you do not have the prerequisite to assess the intensity and seriousness of that anxiety. So just to reassure you, I just want to say that I do not have a problem with anxiety, and my mental states are very "normal". In the last 5 years, I have had a series of old themes coming up on the surface. It happens approximately once a year, triggering anxiety and other difficult emotions for a period of two three weeks. I have learned to open up to these feelings and let them come through “me” completely. These periods have so far been the times when there has been a lot of learning and I therefore have a fundamental sense of peace and coherence even in these turbulent times. But thank you for your concern. Right now the great fear is over and I'm back to my mental baseline. As I said before, there is a clear sight of the thing we call “fear” as a sensation. Its not “just” a sensation, but it more like a fascinating undefined movement with lots of love in it.
Andrei: You're talking like there's an actual "thing", some entity, that pops up every now and then and which bears the label "I".
Can you describe it? Is it a bodily function, a thought, or a sensation you take out of it's original context and build a story around it?
Daniel1: Yes, every now and then, I find that “I” came into the picture out of nowhere, and begins to behave as if he is managing my "life". “I” feel like an energetic movement defining around the body. Unlike a consciousness that is more spacious and not located around the body, the feeling of “I” feels like a “very familiar” contraction in the body, with some spider web of nostalgia around it, and some vague images about the way in which “I” looks. So it feels both bodily, and as a sensation with some thoughts and images – all in the same time. When “I” comes up, it feels real, but when I look at “I”, just after 3-4 seconds “I” begin to see that I is just a manifestation, a function, not a reality. “I” disappear after a while when it is seen that there is no need for it. There are of course many times where I would like to stay much longer in order to fix things, for example, when the concept of “I” gets hurt or threatened.
Andrei: What does "a clear feeling" means? You need to be certain. Look and you see. There is no maybe.
Now, look again. In DE, is there an "I" that control anything, that chooses anything, that is afraid of anything?

Daniel1: In DE there is no “I”. Gradually when there is less focus on the mental processes there are seeing of the simple fact that nothing really happens. There is a body lying in bed, there are some waves of energy surrounding the body. There is plenty of light and silence that does not see a difference between the body, the room and the nature around the house.
It feels very simple and natural to see the world without the stories, and very simple to look at the the body without the stories. Looking without stories there is no good old “I”, because the “I” needs time. So in this “place” there is no maybe, there is no search, there is no doubt because doubt need time to move in, search needs a “I” as a starting point, and “maybe” needs confusion.

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Re: Dan1

Postby Daniel1 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:47 am

There has been a disorder in the last section. This is the right form

Andrei: What does "a clear feeling" means? You need to be certain. Look and you see. There is no maybe.
Now, look again. In DE, is there an "I" that control anything, that chooses anything, that is afraid of anything?

Daniel1: In DE there is no “I”. Gradually when there is less focus on the mental processes there are seeing of the simple fact that nothing really happens. There is a body lying in bed, there are some waves of energy surrounding the body. There is plenty of light and silence that does not see a difference between the body, the room and the nature around the house.
It feels very simple and natural to see the world without the stories, and very simple to look at the the body without the stories. Looking without stories there is no good old “I”, because the “I” needs time. So in this “place” there is no maybe, there is no search, there is no doubt because doubt need time to move in, search needs a “I” as a starting point, and “maybe” needs confusion.


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