Breakthrough in Being

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abbottbella
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Breakthrough in Being

Postby abbottbella » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:51 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that "Carol" and "I" and "my/mine" are linguistic constructions representing a fictional character in what might be called a "dream world." While these constructions are needed for communication, it is important to be free of any attachment or identification to these constructions as representing reality.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for a "getting" of this fiction rather than it being an intellectual concept. Right now I "believe" that "I," "my," and "self" are fictions representing nothing, but I really don't get it in the sense of being free of it like I am free of Santa being real.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be guided through a process that takes me from an intellectual belief into a "getting" and being crystal clear that "I," "my," and "self" are fictions, REALLY. I expect to succeed in this endeavor. I expect that life as I know it will never be the same after this guided process is complete. Beyond that, I do not know what to expect.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I grew up as a Methodist -- steady attendance in Sunday School, church, choir, youth fellowship, etc. I grew disillusioned with organized religion in college. An LSD experience at the age of 20 transformed my relationship with ... God, the Divine, the Universe (whatever words) from an intellectual relationship to a best friend relationship. As an adult I have participated in numerous Landmark Education courses (the Forum, Advanced Course, Self Expression and Leadership, Wisdom Course) and became a seminar leader for that work. I completed with that organization in 2011. Since, I have dabbled in A Course in Miracles, Fluency (a work developed by a woman in Seattle) and Thinking and Destiny. Additionally I participated in a 10-day Vipassana silent retreat about 2 years ago. After being introduced to Liberation Unleashed by a friend about a month ago, I watched an interview with the founders (Buddha at the Gas Pump) which led me to read the spiritual enlightenment trilogy written by Jed McKenna. I am now reading the Gateless Gatecrashers and am signing up for a guide.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 8

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Re: Breakthrough in Being

Postby Bananafish » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:06 am

Hi abbottbella. :)
Welcome to LU. I hope you are still around.

My name is Bananafish, and I've been a guide here for almost three years.
I would be more than happy to be your guide.


When you are ready to start, please post a reply by answering my first question:


When you say "I am now reading the Gateless Gatecrashers,"
what does this "I" in the above sentence refer to?


Looking forward to your reply. :)


Bananafish

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Re: Breakthrough in Being

Postby abbottbella » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:43 pm

Hi Bananafish ... thank you so much for being my guide and I am thrilled to be a part of this process!

I am new to working in this format and had written an entire response to you, then clicked "save draft" but have no idea where it went. If you have somehow already received it, I apologize for writing again, but it looks like it has disappeared. aaarrggh!

So, I begin again.

You asked: When you say "I am now reading the Gateless Gatecrashers,"what does this "I" in the above sentence refer to?

So the answer that matches no "I" is that "reading of the book is happening." While I do get that intellectually, I have to say that what it FEELS like is that there is an "I" doing the reading, an "I" doing the interpreting and an "I" trying to get it. An "I" typing this response to you. An "I" communicating "her" thoughts and ideas to "you."

And that "I" seems to be a compilation of this body plus all the experiences, trainings, doings, etc. that have happened to it or done by it over time. All the beliefs, emotions, learnings, experiences over this lifetime.

Thank you,
Carol

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Re: Breakthrough in Being

Postby Bananafish » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:02 pm

Hello, Carol!
I'm also excited to begin this conversation. :)

that "I" seems to be a compilation of this body plus all the experiences, trainings, doings, etc. that have happened to it or done by it over time. All the beliefs, emotions, learnings, experiences over this lifetime.

What connects all the above you mentioned to make the "I"?
Please observe what is here and now, without relying on thoughts, and report.


Peace,


Bananafish

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Re: Breakthrough in Being

Postby abbottbella » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:49 pm

Good morning Bananafish!

In my last posting, "I" had written: "'I' seems to be a compilation of this body plus all the experiences, trainings, doings, etc. that have happened to it or done by it over time. All the beliefs, emotions, learnings, experiences over this lifetime."

You then asked: What connects all the above you mentioned to make the "I"? Please observe what is here and now, without relying on thoughts, and report.

"My" report:

In observing what is here and now, without relying on thoughts, NOTHING connects the various teachings, experiences, beliefs, incidents to an "I."

Actually, if there can be no reliance on thoughts/memories there are no "past" experiences, teachings, beliefs, etc. They occur only in memory, as remembered.

So, without thoughts/memory, a "historical" Carol/I/me is gone and actually never was.

Each incident, experience happened in that current present moment, but in the next moment -- without thoughts/memories -- is gone, as if it never was.

But ... We DO have thoughts/ memories, don't we? Let me rephrase that more rigorously ... there ARE thoughts/memories yes?

In those thoughts/memories is where Carol/I/me currently exists and in THOSE thoughts/memories/incidents/experiences/teachings/beliefs/etc. everything is connected (or SEEMS to be connected) to an 'I' or at least to a unique entity in the universe.

But, without thoughts/memories there is no connection to an I.

Thank you,
Carol

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Re: Breakthrough in Being

Postby Bananafish » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:31 am

Good afternoon from Yokohama, Japan!

In observing what is here and now, without relying on thoughts, NOTHING connects the various teachings, experiences, beliefs, incidents to an "I."

Excellent observation, Carol!

Actually, if there can be no reliance on thoughts/memories there are no "past" experiences, teachings, beliefs, etc. They occur only in memory, as remembered.
So, without thoughts/memory, a "historical" Carol/I/me is gone and actually never was.
Each incident, experience happened in that current present moment, but in the next moment -- without thoughts/memories -- is gone, as if it never was.

Sounds very clear. :) How does it feel to realise these?

But ... We DO have thoughts/ memories, don't we? Let me rephrase that more rigorously ... there ARE thoughts/memories yes?

Yes.

Now ... do thoughts and memories belong to anyone in particular?


Sit quietly, preferably with your back straight, and LOOK at
the thoughts.




To whom do thoughts appear?

But, without thoughts/memories there is no connection to an I.

Thoughts describe reality (in a very limited way), but are they reality itself?
What is the "I" in reality, which means, what is the "I" in your direct experience, here and now?


Thanks,

Bananafish

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Re: Breakthrough in Being

Postby abbottbella » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:46 am

Hello to Yokahama, Japan -- too COOL!! Well, this is Carol, writing from Poulsbo, WA, across from Seattle via Puget Sound :-)

So, before I begin to specifically answer each of your questions, I have to say something up front that I realized today as I was pondering your questions. There is some fear here that something will be missed if direct experience is looked at solely. In other words, can everything that needs to be found be found in direct experience?

In "my" past, I've looked to dogma, thoughts, theories ... from the Bible, A Course in Miracles, Thinking and Destiny, God, Jesus ... you name it. Virtually none of that was in direct experience but based almost entirely on FAITH and BELIEF. So this relying SOLELY on direct experience is scary for "me" and I just had to get that out. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

***********

Okay ... on to your questions.

You asked: How does it feel to realize that ... without relying on thoughts, NOTHING connects the various teachings, experiences, beliefs, incidents, etc. to an "I." ... that ... without thoughts/memory, a historical Carol/I/me is gone and actually never was.

My answer: On the one hand, it's amazing to think how life might be without relying on thoughts and memories -- that life could simply be lived. That feels VERY exciting.

On the other hand, saying that without thoughts/memories there is no Carol, feels a bit like saying without an engine, there's no car. Cars DO have engines. Humans DO have thoughts/memories. In thoughts/memories the beliefs,teachings, experiences, etc. ARE connected to a sense of I/Carol/me -- or at least to a unique expression of life in a unique body. It certainly SEEMS like that. Am I off in this? The uniqueness of humans is the capacity and use of language and memories/thoughts, for the most part, are language based and point to a cohesive "I".

***********

Then you asked: do thoughts and memories belong to anyone in particular?
Sit quietly, preferably with your back straight, and LOOK at the thoughts.
To whom do thoughts appear?

My answer: I don't think we could say that thoughts/memories BELONG to anyone. However, often they seem to be unique to individual humans. For example, this morning my thoughts dwelled on: Do thoughts/memories belong to anyone? My husband certainly did not have this thought this morning. Rather he was thinking about how best to tell a marketing story for his business. And I did not have those thoughts.

And there are thoughts that apply to all of us: I'm hungry. Do I look ok? Did I say the right thing?

So, to whom do thoughts appear? It APPEARS they appear both indiscriminately (I'm hungry) and discriminately (marketing story for my husband's business.) But to whom? To all of us who are living life.

My questions: Where do thoughts come FROM? I'm actually getting they may not be mine ... some are unique to this life expression (me) but are they generated BY this expression (via your questions for example?)

There is unclarity here.

**********

Next you asked: "Thoughts describe reality (in a very limited way) but are they reality itself?

My answer: NO. They are not reality. They point to reality.

But ... if thoughts describe or point to reality but are NOT reality, what are we to make of thoughts that point to an I or at least to a set of experiences/trainings/etc./etc that center around a unique human expression?

***********

Finally you asked: What is the "I" in reality, which means, what is the "I" in your direct experience, here and now?

My answer: This is where I began to see that i have some resistance to looking ONLY at direct experience. Where I fear we might be missing something. But that was spoken earlier. Moving on to the current question: more unclarity.

First answer: a sense of self, a feeling of aliveness.

But I think the "correct" answer is there is no I in direct experience. Right now, there is still a sense of some ONE writing. Some ONE directing this communication with you.

I think I will stop for now. I look forward to hearing from you and thank you for EVERYTHING!

Carol

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Re: Breakthrough in Being

Postby Bananafish » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:39 pm

Hello, Carol! :)

Well, this is Carol, writing from Poulsbo, WA, across from Seattle via Puget Sound :-)

Same here, cool indeed! What a long distance conversation!

In "my" past, I've looked to dogma, thoughts, theories ... from the Bible, A Course in Miracles, Thinking and Destiny, God, Jesus ... you name it. Virtually none of that was in direct experience but based almost entirely on FAITH and BELIEF. So this relying SOLELY on direct experience is scary for "me" and I just had to get that out. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

Is there anything other than direct experience?

What comes up to you when you think about something other than
direct experience?

On the one hand, it's amazing to think how life might be without relying on thoughts and memories -- that life could simply be lived. That feels VERY exciting.

Nice!

Humans DO have thoughts/memories.

Where are thoughts?

Thoughts have to be somewhere attached to "humans" in order to be possessed.
Where exactly are they?

Observe your thoughts and please report.


In thoughts/memories the beliefs,teachings, experiences, etc. ARE connected to a sense of I/Carol/me -- or at least to a unique expression of life in a unique body. It certainly SEEMS like that. Am I off in this?

It may seem, but are you 100% sure?

It's really important to be honest and say you don't know for
things you don't know, or haven't investigated yet.

The uniqueness of humans is the capacity and use of language and memories/thoughts, for the most part, are language based and point to a cohesive "I".

Where did you learn this?
Who told you? School? Textbooks? People around you?

Do you rely the understanding of reality on others' opinion?


Does the above explanation of yours precisely describe your experience here and now?

My husband certainly did not have this thought this morning.
Rather he was thinking about how best to tell a marketing story for his business.
But to whom? To all of us who are living life.

How do you know this? Can you think other person's thoughts?

Do "other person's thought" really exist?
If so, how can you directly know that?

My questions: Where do thoughts come FROM? I'm actually getting they may not be mine ... some are unique to this life expression (me) but are they generated BY this expression (via your questions for example?)

Please stay focused on my questions, and refrain from generating additional questions.
This is important to make our inquiry straight to the point, without diverging to many
unnecessary branches.

But ... if thoughts describe or point to reality but are NOT reality, what are we to make of thoughts that point to an I or at least to a set of experiences/trainings/etc./etc that center around a unique human expression?

Isn't the "I" itself a thought?

First answer: a sense of self, a feeling of aliveness.
But I think the "correct" answer is there is no I in direct experience. Right now, there is still a sense of some ONE writing. Some ONE directing this communication with you.

Why answering the "correct" answer?
Why do you think that's correct?


Where is that ONE?
From where is it directing things?

I think I will stop for now. I look forward to hearing from you and thank you for EVERYTHING!

Thanks you for your sincerity throughout the conversation. :)
Keep up the good work!


Bananafish

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Re: Breakthrough in Being

Postby Bananafish » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:17 pm

Hi again, Carol. :)

Just letting you know that I will be too busy to post a reply
tomorrow. Please bear with me, and any report on your inquiry is welcome!
Also for tomorrow, please post something (just anything about the inquiry).

Best wishes,

Bananafish

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Re: Breakthrough in Being

Postby abbottbella » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:56 pm

Hi Bananafish ... I will miss you tomorrow but completely understand. And yes I will post something to update you.

So onward and upward!

***************

Based on me expressing my fear of potentially missing something by using Direct Experience (DE) only ...

You asked: Is there anything other than direct experience?
What comes up to you when you think about something other than direct experience?

My answer: NO, there is nothing other than DE.

My original answer this morning was that there was either DE OR thoughts about DE and thus all was DE. But I was separating DE from thoughts. As if thoughts were outside of DE and since they pointed to DE, they were part of DE.
But what I am seeing now is that thoughts are part of DE and not separate from.

***************

To my writing: Humans DO have thoughts/memories ...

You asked: Where are thoughts? Thoughts have to be somewhere attached to "humans" in order to be possessed.
Where exactly are they?

My Report: I am unclear where thoughts are. I certainly don't think they are in the body. But are they "attached" to human being in some way? Not physically, but certain thoughts seem to hang around certain humans. For example, thoughts about writing an art book hang around my friend who is in the process of writing a book about art. Right now thoughts are hanging around me -- I'd call them thoughts about thoughts. as that is the inquiry I'm currently in.

Maybe we "attract" certain thoughts by what we're up to in life.

But, I do not know the answer to your question where thoughts are. It feels like they are HERE.

*************

To my writing that "in thoughts/memories the beliefs, teachings, experiences ARE connected to a sense of I/Carol/me ...

You asked: It may seem, but are you 100% sure?

My answer: Can I prove this assertion I've made? No, I cannot. I ask myself, how would I KNOW this? Other than testimony from "my" thoughts or seemings and others thoughts/seemings, I've got nothing. And thoughts/seemings are not knowing.

**************

To you saying: "It's really important to be honest and say you don't know for things you don't know or hasn't investigated yet."

I say: Thank you. That is a very important reminder and I take it to heart.

**************

To my saying that "The uniqueness of humans is the capacity and use of language and memories/thoughts, for the most part, are languages based and point to a cohesive "I." ...

You asked: Where did you learn this? Who told you? School? Textbooks? People around you?

My answer: Yes to all. Plus, I am a speech language pathologist by training and have worked with hundreds of children, so I have experience with humans expressing through language.

But the truth: I spoke something I cannot know to be true, especially the second half of my assertion -- that memories/thoughts are language-based and point to a cohesive I.

And you asked if I relied on others' opinions for the understanding of reality. Sadly, to this point in my life, YES. UGH!

You also asked: Does the above explanation precisely describe your experience here and now?

My answer: NO

***************

To my saying that my husband had a thought this morning about how best to tell a marketing story about his business ...

You asked: How do you know this? Can you think other person's thought?

My answer: You're right. I cannot know this. Nor can I think another person's thoughts. (Can I KNOW seems to be a big lesson today and it's a good one. I am taking it to heart!)

You asked: Do other people's thoughts really exist? and can I directly know that.

My answer: I definitely cannot know this. I THINK that just like for me, thoughts exist, that they do for others. But I cannot know it. I can only report that they tell me that thoughts exist for them.

*******************

To me saying: "If thoughts describe or point to reality but are NOT reality, what are we to make of thoughts that point to an I or at least to a set of experiences/trainings/etc./etc. that center around a unique human expression" ...

You asked: Isn't the "I" itself a thought?

My answer: hmmmm. It is just a thought. I can feel resistance in my body, but I am getting it is just a thought.

***************

To me saying: "Right now there is still a sense of some ONE writing. Some ONE directing this communication with you" ...

You asked: Where is that ONE? From where is it directing things?

My answer: I don't know from where that ONE is directing things. It FEELS like there's some sort of command center directing my thoughts, actions, speakings, etc. but I am clear that center is not to be found. So in reality, I have a sense of a commander, but no evidence whatsoever.

Thank you, Bananafish,

Carol

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Re: Breakthrough in Being

Postby abbottbella » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:49 am

Hi Bananafish!

Today has been a bit of a different day ... spent time this morning putting "my" direct experience into words. I'll include a bit of what I wrote below. Then on Thursday afternoons, my dog, Abbott and I, visit a long term care center and hang out with the "elderlies." I spent time there doing a similar kind of process.

So here's what I wrote this morning in my journal:

"Okay ... where am 'I' this morning

Present to the pen moving across the paper. Wondering what's directing the words that appear on the paper.

Listening to the clock ticking and some traffic noise outside.

Feeling what could be labeled gratitude.

Experiencing eyes drop and close, relishing the relaxation of closed eyes.

Paying attention to 'my' breathing and in the paying attention, taking deeper breaths.

Questioning/wondering about the fact that 'I' has not been used since the first sentence ... but is there an implication of someone or some thing
-being present to...
-listening
-feeling
-paying attention to
-questioning/wondering?

Not finding an 'I' in reality but rather a sense of 'I.'

Now rereading what's been written, editing a bit, clarifying.

Watching letters form words on the paper.

Pondering the languaging of listening versus I'm listening. Worry being experienced versus I'm worrying. Rain being heard versus I'm hearing rain."


That's it for now, Bananafish. I look forward to your next communication.

Carol

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Re: Breakthrough in Being

Postby Bananafish » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:18 pm

Hi Carol, I'm back!

what I am seeing now is that thoughts are part of DE and not separate from.

Beautiful!

But, I do not know the answer to your question where thoughts are. It feels like they are HERE.

Exactly! And what's Here?
Is there a division between here and there? Isn't it just Here?

I ask myself, how would I KNOW this? Other than testimony from "my" thoughts or seemings and others thoughts/seemings, I've got nothing. And thoughts/seemings are not knowing.

Very clear. :)

But the truth: I spoke something I cannot know to be true, especially the second half of my assertion -- that memories/thoughts are language-based and point to a cohesive I.

It's truly eye-opening to know that thoughts can't be relied as being 100% true. Isn't it?
Thoughts can never be 100% true.

And you asked if I relied on others' opinions for the understanding of reality. Sadly, to this point in my life, YES. UGH!

It hurts to know that, right?
There's liberation there. :)

I THINK that just like for me, thoughts exist, that they do for others. But I cannot know it. I can only report that they tell me that thoughts exist for them.

Great observation!
How does it feel to recognise it?

I can feel resistance in my body, but I am getting it is just a thought.

What kind of resistance is it?
Can you feel it again and report?

So in reality, I have a sense of a commander, but no evidence whatsoever.

Dive into that "sense."
What do you find?
Do you find anything other than just a sense?


Kind regards,

Bananafish

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Re: Breakthrough in Being

Postby abbottbella » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:31 pm

Welcome back! It was so nice to get up this morning and find a communication from you. The timing works out so perfectly.

Okay ...

***************

Regarding thoughts, I'd written that they just seem to be HERE.

You wrote: Exactly! And what's Here? Is there a division between here and there? Isn't it just Here?"

My reply: Difficult to find a division between here and there. Where would the line of demarcation be? Impossible to find/create that line. So what we seem to be saying is that everything in our direct experience is Here. yes?

***************

I say a big yes to "thoughts can't be relied on as being 100% true. Thoughts can never be 100% true."

Question about that (but feel free to bypass if it doesn't move us forward): Are there thoughts that are more grounded than others? In other words, thoughts that we could provide evidence for versus thoughts we can't? Is it important to separate those or not?

*****************

Yes! to "Liberation to see how much reliance there has been on other's opinions for the understanding of reality.

So much we can't know. We don't have to make anything wrong, but if we can't know it, it's important to acknowledge we can't know the truth of those statements/assertions/claims.

***************

I had written that i experienced a feeling of resistance to 'I' being just a thought.

You asked: What kind of resistance is it? Feel again and report.

My report: There are two things to report:
1) The word "just" ... I is just a thought ... if true and seeing shows it is ... then I've lived many many years operating from a fiction. Building stories about who 'I' am, the historical perspective of 'Carol' and how it's made her who she 'is' with a personality, set of traits, characteristics and ways of being in the world. To let that go (which I'm clear is the thing to do) doesn't exactly invalidate those years, but it sure does invite inquiry. So there's a feeling of: I could have been so much freer in life, so much more going with the flow rather than what 'Carol' wanted and the controlling way 'she' was. BUT and this is a bit BUT ... in reality there are no "those" years. There are only thoughts/memories about those years. That's BIG!

2) Resistance may actually be more accurately labelled as clinging -- a desire to still 'have' that'I', that 'Carol'. Another big BUT: that's not 'me' having that thought/feeling but simply thought/feeling being there.

So in the writing of my response, there is a freedom and insight that wasn't there before writing this.

***************

I had talked about having a sense of a commander directing my life, but seeing no evidence for it.

You asked: Dive into that 'sense.' What do you find? Anything other than a sense?

My report: There is only a sense. Yet the question arises: what is it that has 'me' do the things 'I' committed to? For example, 'I' scheduled a call with a client and promised to read an email prior to the call. And 'I' read that email and responded to it on the call. What is it that
1) scheduled the call and 2) made sure 'I' read the email prior to the call?

So it's a sense of a commander/manager but clearly no such commander/manager is to be found.

But isn't there SOMETHING that navigates the body/speaking/actions in life?

***************

Thank you so much Bananafish ...

Happy Weekend!
Carol

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Re: Breakthrough in Being

Postby Bananafish » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:15 pm

Hello, Carol. :)

"Difficult to find a division between here and there. Where would the line of demarcation be? Impossible to find/create that line. So what we seem to be saying is that everything in our direct experience is Here. yes?"

Why ask me? Is that your experience?


What about time? Is there anything other than Now?
Where can you find past and future?
Can you even grasp the Now?

Are there thoughts that are more grounded than others? In other words, thoughts that we could provide evidence for versus thoughts we can't? Is it important to separate those or not?

Can you give an example of a thought that is more "grounded" than the other?


if we can't know it, it's important to acknowledge we can't know the truth of those statements/assertions/claims.

Yes. "Not knowing is the most intimate."

Beware when you think you understood something, especially from thoughts
or from other person's opinion.


2) Resistance may actually be more accurately labelled as clinging -- a desire to still 'have' that'I', that 'Carol'.

In which form does this desire appear?

So in the writing of my response, there is a freedom and insight that wasn't there before writing this.

Superb! Glad to hear that ... :)

But isn't there SOMETHING that navigates the body/speaking/actions in life?

Good question!


Can you grasp that SOMETHING?


Can you name it?
Can you see it?


Is it human?
Is it definable?
Is it what you've thought yourself to be?


Is the movement of Life separate from Life?


Warm regards,

Bananafish

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Re: Breakthrough in Being

Postby abbottbella » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:53 pm

Happy Saturday!

In our last exchange, I had said it seemed that "everything in our direct experience is Here. yes?"

Your reply and question: Why ask me? Is that your experience?

My answer: yes! In my direct experience it's all HERE.

***************

Then you asked: What about time? Is there anything other than Now?
My answer: No.

You asked: Where can you find past and future?
My answer: ONLY through our conversations/thoughts about the past or future.

You asked: Can you even grasp the Now?
My answer: I am in doubt of being able to grasp the Now. It's so instantaneous that to even consider grasping it, it's past. The Now is only to be lived. And I can see that language (however necessary) slows us up and by the time we're labelling it's no longer Now.

Q: Is spoken conversation considered to be thought? Thought just spoken aloud? I know you'll ask me what I think and I say that yes ...a spoken utterance most often represents a thought.

BUT, I do have an experience of times where people did not seem to be regurgitating thoughts but seemed to be generating Life ... speaking AS life ... maybe even Life speaking itself.

***************

I had asked you "Are there thoughts that are more grounded than others?

You asked: Can you give an example of a thought that is more "grounded" than the other?

My answer: Okay ... a thought about our granddaughter being smart. I can ground that thought with: she's valedictorian of her class; she received a perfect score on the SAT, and she's been accepted at MIT. Those three statements of fact support/ground the thought that she's smart.

I could think another thought in which I could provide no corroborating evidence whatsoever for it. It would be ungrounded.

***************

You said that "not knowing is the most intimate."
I LOVE this!

You followed it up with: "Beware when you think you understand something, especially from thoughts or from another person's opinion.

I say (and ask): yes. I will become much more vigilant about this. And ask: if we discount thoughts or opinions (which seem to be another's thought on something) what's left? Fact? Is that what you're pointing to? Or possibly the "generating" or Life speaking Life that I spoke of above?

***************

I stated that my resistance to 'I' as a thought could be more accurately labelled as clinging -- a desire to still 'have' that 'I', that Carol.

You asked: In what form does this desire appear?
My answer: In what form? Oh! In the form of thought/emotion. It just keeps coming back to this, doesn't it? And today it does not seem near as strong a desire (thought/emotion) as it has been in the past.

***************

I had asked: "But isn't there SOMETHING that navigates the body/speaking/actions in life?

You asked: Can you grasp that SOMETHING?
My answer: I cannot.

You asked: Can you name it?
My answer: I COULD ("God," "Universe," "Life") but it would be me putting a name on something that may be un-name-able.

You asked: Can you see it?
My answer: No

You asked: Is it human?
My answer: No

You asked: Is it definable?
My answer: No -- only to repeat the above: "That which seems to navigate the body/speaking/actions in life" which does not define it, but points to it.

You asked: Is it what you've thought yourself to be?
My answer: Yes

You asked: Is the movement of Life separate from Life?
My answer: No ... all seamlessly connected.

Thank you Bananafish ... things are getting clearer and clearer,
Carol


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