Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

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Silkie752
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Re: Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

Postby Silkie752 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:59 am

Michael,  

It was a very happy day.  I read your note this morning and the understanding is amazing to me. I feel so light today, like I have no burdens; even the traffic while I drive to the store is just accepted as it is. I am almost tingling with this aliveness.

From the quote, I had to look up the meaning for the word "apperceiving" as it was not familiar. "It is consciousness conscious of itself". Quite beautiful. Quite simple, actually. Like a circle.

" The universe appearing in consciousness is a mirror which reflects every sentient being, consciousness is the very source of the apparent universe. ".   Does this mean that all consciousness is connected in the universe? Am I a part of/the same consciousness as the forest; are we all connected? I feel like the answer is YES! My energy felt like it could feel the plant energy.  But do we really know this to be true?

The present moment is all there is; I understand this now and believe it with all my heart.  Old thoughts can just be turned off.  Any bad feelings that may come up, are also started with old thoughts: one can just look at the thought and, as you said, "Oh, you're only a thought, you're nothing, you have no more power on me", and PAF! the thought dissolve instantaneously." This makes me smile so big! It is so empowering and makes me feel like I need nothing more.

"So now, the only thing to do is going on to observe how everything happens without an "I" to decide.".  I am still thinking and working on this thought you gave me. I have a little trouble with it.  The food analogy was easy to accept as that which happens. But what about something like caring for my children?  Often times, there is a lot to think about and decisions to make about handling behaviors, what is best for them.  Can I trust that my consciousness will make a decision about what is best and then the body/ego/old-perceived-self will comply as directed?  Hmmmmmm.  Yes.  By the time my sentence was finished, I could see that no "I" was needed here.  More thinking tomorrow, okay?

Thank you again.  I am enjoying this process but it is work to look so deeply into a question.

Carrol

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Re: Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

Postby Chronophonix » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:54 pm

Hi carrol

But what about something like caring for my children? Often times, there is a lot to think about and decisions to make about handling behaviors, what is best for them. Can I trust that my consciousness will make a decision about what is best and then the body/ego/old-perceived-self will comply as directed? Hmmmmmm. Yes. By the time my sentence was finished, I could see that no "I" was needed here.

One more time, the answer came by itself !; trusting your consciousness (and the feeling from consciousness can be labeled "intuition") will never fail.

Does this mean that all consciousness is connected in the universe? Am I a part of/the same consciousness as the forest; are we all connected? I feel like the answer is YES! My energy felt like it could feel the plant energy. But do we really know this to be true?

Good feeling ! you've felt yourself the answer...
Knowing this to be true is by experiencing; if you look carefully to, for instance a flower, and ignore mind commentaries ("oh, it's awesome, so beautiful colors, and it smells so good, and so on) but keep looking deeply, the mind will soon be quiet, and you will feel a lot of details you never notice before, (there are so much details that I let you appreciate, not every details are seen at one time, so take your time!)
Try to smell the flower for 30 seconds without mind commentary, let yourself be the fragrance, experiment, find you own truth about "smelling".

I feel so light today, like I have no burdens; even the traffic while I drive to the store is just accepted as it is.

Very good test ! You have discover how it feels to drive a car without a "I" : so cool...

I am enjoying this process but it is work to look so deeply into a question.

It's true, and it's so fondamental to do it that you can write this label with capital first letter : the Work.

It is so empowering and makes me feel like I need nothing more.

That is Liberation : to need nothing more than that is, as it is, here and now.
So, go on doing the Work, and observe how conscious feelings unfold.
Observe the eventual arising of resistances (if not, its a real blessing.)
Write me your observations.

I'm feeling much happiness for you
Yours
M.

PS: I am father of two children (15&17) and do for them what I feel is the best without any decision of "me"; and it works !
«Pas ce qui devrait être, ce qui est» (Swami Prajnanpad)

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Re: Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

Postby Silkie752 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:36 am

Hi Michael,

What I noticed today: I like that I am able to do and be so much without commentary running crazy in my mind; I like the quiet; I don't feel the need to have an opinion or judgement about so many things as before. No resistance today but sometimes a little ego speaking up to judge me and have me worry that maybe this will not "stick"; a little self doubt because I have always thought I was not good enough. So I told this ego he was wrong. :)

I didn't have too much time for my Work today.  I bought some flowers to practice with this evening.

I began with smelling, closing my eyes to block out the surrounding activity.  At first I smelled what I expected from previous experience. But the longer I let the scent play with my nose, the more complex the smell became.  The actual scent was many scents, like notes of music bouncing and playing a tune.  I could almost visualize the tune it was playing and hear the notes melodically playing.  The smell is so strong that it  reminds me of the old question " if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, is there a sound?". To which I add, If there is no "I" to experience the smell, is it still there?. Yes it is.  The only difference is whether an experiencer was there doing the experiencing, the smelling, the hearing.  

Next came seeing the flowers.  After the initial beauty phase,  came other form based thoughts: the shape, the symmetry, the usage of all available space.  next came amazing thoughts that this orchid was pure grace, not only graceful looking, but felt like grace and calm.  This flower is so wonderful, yet has no ego, no judgement, nothing negative whatsoever... Pure grace and being.  it is very much alive and wants nothing more than to share its grace with me, to give me joy by showing this grace and beauty to me.  It is communicating! With its own divine nature. it is expressing what it feels about life and all that is important to it and is seeking the good in me in return. Oh my gosh; I will never look at a flower the old way again.

Must say goodnight and once again, thank you.

Carrol

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Re: Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

Postby Chronophonix » Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:59 pm

Dear Carrol

After reading your last message,I felt very happy for you; you have seen "it", you have seen the illusion of "I" and discovered how the world is shining when it is only looked at, without a "me" to look.

But the longer I let the scent play with my nose, the more complex the smell became. The actual scent was many scents, like notes of music bouncing and playing a tune.

Very beautiful; you will learn to your children the sweet song of the flower's scent...

With its own divine nature. it is expressing what it feels about life and all that is important to it and is seeking the good in me in return. Oh my gosh; I will never look at a flower the old way again.

Life is communion, the flowers love us...

So, time has come to ask you the four "technicals" questions about what has been seen with no "I"; don't answer intellectually, but from your deepest feeling, look at the questions acutely and let the answer come and unfold.
Take your time.
So, here are the questions :

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

And an eventual subsidiary question, if possible.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

After your answer, I will explain you how you can participate in LU project.

Sincerely yours
M.
«Pas ce qui devrait être, ce qui est» (Swami Prajnanpad)

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Re: Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

Postby Silkie752 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:38 am

Michael, 

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Me or I in the traditional sense of the word has never and will never exist. Of this I am sure and of this, I am absolutely ecstatic.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The illusion of separate self begins at a very young age probably with the early introduction and understanding of language. Personal pronouns immediately designate possession (that is his, this is yours).  Experiences become personalized: I went to the zoo, I ate a snack, I go to bed. And then the biggest association to I, the egoic attachment: I am good, I am bad, I want more, I didn't get so I must be bad.  Our parents, teachers, media and role models feed this ego in the making with stories of who this I should be based on their own egoic desires.  The egoic I finds that if it is ever good or right that this feeling is only short lived and eventually the desire to be better or have more will bubble to the surface as unhappiness or want and the search for more continues.  There is never enough to satisfy this insatiable ego and so now, this ego self, along with the recorded stories that it has accumulated, continuously replays the stories so that it gets the attention it so strongly wants. (I used to believe that ego only referred to an individuals pumped up, but positive assessments of itself; the I am great, I can solve all the problems types of stories.  Now I see that my very sad story, repeated many times equated to just as large of an ego in its need to be perceived). 

So now we have the ego, the collection of stories sometimes defining our wonderfulness, most times our lack and always eventually our "not enough" feelings.  We have the body which is run by the brain (in which the ego resides) and performs automatically; most people strongly identify the I with this body and truly believe that this body/brain-ego combo is the true "I".  But this is illusory. And this is a very good thing, because ultimately, there is no lasting happiness in the egoic self.  Consciousness, the true I, is that which is conscious, that which experiences and observes the life.

3) How does it feel to see this?

With the understanding that I am not the ego, I feel huge amounts of relief.  
I am not this unhappy story and it will never define me again.
It fills me with compassion and empathy because I am certain that the personality most people express, is simply defined by their own unhappy stories of not being enough. Additionally, I realize that their treatment of me has, at most, very little to do with me and so, I will not personalize their expressions, nor add them to my own unhappy story.

With the experiences I had in detecting my consciousness and oneness with the universe.... Absolutely, indescribable joy. Amazing peace. Incredible Hope.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

Are you asking me how I would describe this feeling of liberation to another individual or how I would go about describing the process of getting to liberation?  So, I have no answer to this question yet, only some thoughts I am developing.

If an individual had a very strong, negative sense of self with a very unhappy story, I believe the concept of no self would be embraced as a way to separate from the tormentor ego and so, the process would not be as difficult as with someone who merely has a "normal" existence, with everyday challenges and egoic demands.  Explained a little differently, the one who has the most to gain is the one who will more readily be willing and able to "see the light" of enlightenment.

I have been contemplating the discussion of this topic with some of my friends and I must admit that many of them would think that I must have been hit in the head.  They are not progressive thinkers in even the simplest definition.  A few have dealt with bouts of depression,  anxiety and severe panic attacks.  These are the ones I have discussed Tolle's teachings with.  They are receptive, because there is only the potential for gain and none for loss.

The approach used in this forum is unique to me.  I had already embraced the ego as not being my true self, and with your help Michael, the next step to non-self came.  But I must say that the one thing that made it all "click" was the experience you helped my "I" have, of being the energy that was divine (and this from an atheist who hasn't believed in a god since age 12).  This sensation was so complete and such absolute truth, I needed nothing further to convince me that I was merely apperception at its finest.

So, does everyone experience this energy?  I hope so, but I don't know.  If one doesn't, can you convince someone of the no-self with rational thinking alone?


5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Are you asking me what made me want to find this answer of no-self?  If this is the question, I would respond in this manner:  Tolle's teachings regarding the separation of ego from self was a huge and empowering gift to me: the beginning of breaking this illusion.  (I began following his teachings the middle of December 2011, very shortly before arriving here).  Since then, I have been led via links all over the Internet in search of the something that still felt like I was missing; I had no idea what that missing something was.  I happened upon this site and registered, barely knowing what it was I was asking for. I was certain I was missing something; could this be it?  I have always experienced intuition strongly, and only recently have I listened and trusted in it. That intuition is what told me that this is the right place, even though my fearful ego snuck in and told me I would not understand.

Now, after three and a half hours of writing, I will say goodnight for it is late here.  I look forward to hearing from you again soon.

Carrol

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Re: Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

Postby Chronophonix » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:54 pm

Hi Carrol
I have asked some other people of LU to read our thread and give advice, confirm or ask more question. For me, it's OK, you have "seen it"!

This sensation was so complete and such absolute truth, I needed nothing further to convince me that I was merely apperception at its finest.
So beautiful ! Sure, when you live and feel deeply this, no doubt can arise. But remember, it's your strong involving in looking directly which allowed the "click" to occur, so stay awake...

So, does everyone experience this energy? I hope so, but I don't know. If one doesn't, can you convince someone of the no-self with rational thinking alone?
All high level human activities make people feeling high energy level (automobile race, sport, music performance, etc...) but after, they most of the time come back to ego-state; you can bring somebody who never experiment high energy level, by pushing him to look intensely deep in himself, to feel that; but it's never certain it will happen.

Have you a facebook account ? If not, create one, so after confirmation by LU, you would be invited to "Unleashed", the aftercare group, where you can exchange with people about all what's happen for you after liberation, ask question, offer to help, and so on.

Dear Carrol, I'm overjoyed for you, and I will write you as soon as LU give me advice. Oh, I've forgotten to tell you : try to listen music (choose first a music you use to be familiar with) with direct hearing, you will be amazed.
Try it after with any music you would before have found awful, and look what happens !

In communion with you
M.
«Pas ce qui devrait être, ce qui est» (Swami Prajnanpad)

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Re: Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

Postby Chronophonix » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:57 pm

Hi carrol
Here come some additional questions, suggested by friends from LU.

Me or I in the traditional sense of the word

What do you mean by «traditional sense of the word» ?

With the understanding that I am not the ego, I feel huge amounts of relief.

Is "I am not the ego" a thought or something you have seen to be irrevocably true ?

Another question came since I began this message : What is "Carrol", how does "she" operate and is there a real ego at all ?

One more time, the answers have to come from acute seeing, and the purpose is to be sure that ego is definitely broken down.

Last step for today :
I am not this unhappy story and it will never define me again.

Can you expand a little bit about this, and try to use your own words instead of Tolle's concepts. ("unhappy story")

If something inside you rants about these questions, see it and look at; if you find them funny, I will hear you smile :)

In communion
M.

PS : here is a link to a very useful text writed by Ed Muzika; I recommand you to read it.
http://www.wearesentience.com/awakening ... ation.html
«Pas ce qui devrait être, ce qui est» (Swami Prajnanpad)

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Re: Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

Postby Silkie752 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:41 pm

Dearest Michael,

Before I respond, I sincerely request an answer to a question. I had written a response to this post (I do this on another editor, and then usually cut and paste because I do not always have online access) but am not sure if it is Ego answering or really the consciousness me. How do I tell the difference so that I am not tricked again? At first, I was sure it was all me, but not so sure now.

Thank you. Yours, Carrol. And yes, I did smile :)

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Re: Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

Postby Silkie752 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:38 pm

And so, I cannot help but be tempted to answer my own question. If there is any emotion other than those that would be considered purely positive, ego must be the source. Examples would be anger, fear, rejection, outrage, pity, disdain, impatience.. Any emotion which doesn't arise from a conscious expression of well being. In case you were wondering, mine was not one which had its root in ego; the question of ego arose simply because of its appearance in several threads by some of the higher level awakened/liberated guides on this forum whom I would have expected to be beyond this. So, is it safe to assume that even the liberated are not truly safe and must be aware of the potential of a fallback?

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Re: Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

Postby Chronophonix » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:25 pm

Dear Carrol

but am not sure if it is Ego answering

Ego can't answer anything if it is not here; so, look, is ego still here ? Remember when you were driving your car without "I", or observed the flower, or felt «This sensation was so complete and such absolute truth, I needed nothing further to convince me that I was merely apperception at its finest.» There were no "I", isn't it ? You oviously saw it. So, do you feel now a difference when asking «but am not sure if it is Ego answering or really the consciousness me» Answer as when you were driving your car without "I", without doubt, from your deepest feeling, without the mind. Ego will always answer intellectually, consciousness will answer from the heart. And don't worry about using Tolle's concepts : after all, the important thing is to what these concept point, concepts are only labels; but remain careful, when using any concept, that they point to real feeling, and not to another concept (mind loops, it happens sometimes)

With the understanding that I am not the ego, I feel huge amounts of relief.
I am not this unhappy story and it will never define me again.
You see it, labels don't matter.

So, now, the only criteria about your answering is : does it come from heart ? You have to be as sincere as possible with yourself, and remember : "I" don't exist. And when you write «the consciousness me», what happens if you put off the «me» ? Only consciousness is.

And if some fragment of ego seem to come back, with its procession of thoughts, look, accept, and let it go. Mind inertia is a reality and if the old mecanisms try to rise again, you have to look to them tirelessly, and
PAF!!!

Now, make the word "YES" your favourite !

In communion
M.
«Pas ce qui devrait être, ce qui est» (Swami Prajnanpad)

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Re: Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

Postby Chronophonix » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:28 pm

Hi Carrol
I send it before having seen your second post
So it's an answer only to the first one
I consider now the second.
M.
«Pas ce qui devrait être, ce qui est» (Swami Prajnanpad)

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Re: Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

Postby Chronophonix » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:44 pm

Dear Carol
First element of answer to your second post : a text from Ilona, bringing clear light through the "dark side" of liberation.
Falling, by Ilona Ciunaite

Right, this is when it gets interesting.

Since the core belief has been busted, there will be a lot of lost beliefs. Imagine like a computer system, if you delete some programs, there will be some files left behind that will slow down the performance, so you usually clean it up. Defragment the system, tune it up.

And knocking the core belief out is like a tsunami to your system. It leaves a lot of rubble behind, lot of corpses to take care of. So what you want to do here is clarify and clarify more. Keep an eye on the truth, let them beliefs surface. They will come up one by one ready to be released. Don’t fight them and hold on to nothing. As soon as you start holding on to belief, idea, you get stuck. To unstuck, just let it all fall of. I call this stage “Falling” as all that is untrue, falls away, all that it is true, falls into place.

Some say it takes around a couple of months, but everyone is different. So there is no guarantee how long it will take for your system to reboot and rebalance. Faith in truth is your friend. Desire to get the last lie of your system is another friend as well as readiness to let go of everything that does not serve anymore.

Look close at the most precious beliefs that are close to the heart, in no touch zone. They are the ones that you really want to inspect up close. You will recognise them by feeling resistance. Follow resistance. It is here to let you know that another bit of lie is sitting somewhere waiting to be noticed.

When the sticking point is removed life becomes easier, until it has got a real sense of freedom, appreciation, effortlessness, trust and awe. And so on. There is freedom in every situation. There is freedom to express without feelings of guit, fear, being wrong. Freedom is not from negative situation, but within them situations. Life is no longer looked at through the lens of “me”. It’s wide open, ready to be explored.
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Re: Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

Postby Chronophonix » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:38 am

Answer to second post (suite)

So, is it safe to assume that even the liberated are not truly safe and must be aware of the potential of a fallback?


Carrol, is it safe to assume tomorrow will exist ? Or next year ? I can die this night, why not ? Who knows ?
Only now is safe.

But yes, anyone, and even some historic grand masters can fall; Chogyam Trungpa, a divine tibetan master died from alcoolism. And what to say about Rajneesh and all controverses about him...

Ego is not safe, it's obvious. Consciousness is safe, life with no "I" is safe, nothing has the power of hurt the no "I" consciousness, because it's no more personal, the one who hurt and the one who is hurt are the same.

If there is any emotion other than those that would be considered purely positive, ego must be the source.


Carrol, it's may be hard to accept, but all emotions are from ego, positive as negative. But when you refer to «This sensation was so complete and such absolute truth» I feel this not as an emotion, but as a deep feeling:
we can label it "Causeless joy".
So, it's important to no mistake one for the other.

I had written a response to this post

So, send your response, only ego can fear, consciousness don't !
And remember : YES!

In communion
M.
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Re: Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

Postby Silkie752 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:50 pm

Greetings Michael,

Not such a good, clear-conscious day yesterday; I woke up with unease and didn't give attention back to the conscious self.  I must ensure I am centered before I respond in the future. I read your replies today and see the answer with complete agreement.  So now I will go back and answer the questions.

What do you mean by «traditional sense of the word» ?
I used this phrase merely to indicate the "I" most people reference when speaking of this entity that surrounds them.  There is no such "I". The "I" which is used to reference consciousness within the body that surrounds this speaker, is merely grammatical so that the reader has a conceptual understanding of that which is being conveyed without having to provide this explanation each time the word "I" is used.

Is "I am not the ego" a thought or something you have seen to be irrevocably true ?
This is most emphatically not a thought.  I have felt, do feel and am the consciousness which can only be known and not seen, which I experience as absolute consuming joy. When I wrote this,"I am not the ego", my consciousness was speaking to Michael with the prior sharing of ideas we have expressed between us; this prior understanding allowed me to relax my emphasis which I knew that Michael did not require for full understanding of my expression.

What is "Carrol", how does "she" operate and is there a real ego at all ? 
Carrol as most of the world experiences her, due to their own lack of conscious self, is merely a form. Carrol to me, is a radiant glow of "being".  Carrol knows that this "being ness", this "consciousness", this "spark"  is her true self and that the experience of life when viewed through this true self is oneness with all. With this consciousness, the previous perceptions of "one's life" causes a smile to be expressed because of the ridiculousness of the prior importance granted to the manifested ego's desires, whims and expressions.  There is no real ego. My consciousness knows this to be absolute fact.  It is merely an illusion developed through the process of upbringing by those who exist in a form based world.  

I am not this unhappy story and it will never define me again.
Can you expand a little bit about this, and try to use your own words instead of Tolle's concepts. ("unhappy story")
It has been very convenient to reference the "unhappy story" motif of Tolle because of the strong identification I had with past experiences in this physical lifetime.  As far as memory can recall,  the process of my upbringing was one in which fear was the motivator driving life.  Experiences and perceptions grew into the illusory sense of self, very strong, but very negative.  The brain becomes hard wired after so many repetitions of this programming model, to repeat these experiences and perceptions,perhaps not by visual means, but certainly by the "fight or flight mechanism" which triggers the emotion of fear.  This explanation is my "unhappy story", the illusion of which the true consciousness has seen through.

Lastly, dear Michael, with you, I feel we are communicating with the same language and it is a very deep language indeed.  I did not  rant about the questions but I took pause.  And then I smiled for you, with the understanding that the questioning was not yours but that the understanding with you is complete.  It brings me great joy.

I want to express to you my deep appreciation for your assistance and guidance.  I will never again be, that which I was not, and that is due to your kindness and generosity of spirit. Fortune was with me when your service was passed to my request for assistance.  

Much love,   Carrol

P.S.  I found Ed Muzika's text to be very helpful, thank you for offering it to me.  I will sit down to some music soon and will take your suggestion. I am very interested at what I will experience.

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Re: Your Assistance is Greatly Appreciated

Postby Chronophonix » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:53 am

Dear Carrol

I'm so happy for you: what you have seen can't be unseen now.

At this point, there is still something subtle to look at : you write «I have felt, do feel and am the consciousness which can only be known and not seen, which I experience as absolute consuming joy.»
No doubt about this awesome feeling, but would it be possible that remains a subtle identification to this state of pure joy ? At this phase, it's very tempting ! I can't answer, only you can.

Same question apply to other descriptions : «Carrol knows that this "being ness", this "consciousness", this "spark" is her true self and that the experience of life when viewed through this true self is oneness with all.» Does remain a subtle identification with "being ness", "consciousness", "spark" , or «radiant glow of "being". » Does the entity that you call «true self» exist ? «Oneness with all» suppose no separation between you and others, so there is no you, there are no others.

What you are living is wonderful, the danger at this phase is not to see that instead of identify yourself to this "unhappy story", you identify now to this "very happy story".(I repeat that it's very tempting : I can ensure that I did it more than one time ! Even after seeing it, it came again, until complete erosion would be done by looking more and more hardly)
So, look at this point acutely, because if you have to guide other people, you must be 100% clear on this point.
A question comes to me just now, it was asked often by Ramana Maharshi, what would you answer :
«Is consciousness within the body, or is the body within consciousness ? »

OK Carrol, I want really you to pass 100% "through the gate" (but is there really a gate to pass through ?...ooops! still a question, when will it stop...!)

The "big work" is done, so now comes the "subtle work", which is quite impossible to do first.

And remember, about "my guidance", that it's you who achieved all work, so thank and love yourself !

In communion
M.
«Pas ce qui devrait être, ce qui est» (Swami Prajnanpad)


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