In gratitude would love help to release the story

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FindingHere01
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In gratitude would love help to release the story

Postby FindingHere01 » Sat May 14, 2016 1:56 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
After a 22 year spiritual search that has seemed like a labyrinth with many dead ends, there is a fair amount of clarity and openess, however many hours of the day spent wrapped up in stories and illusions. I found liberation unleashed after reading a couple chapters of the gate less gate-crashes.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I am looking for more time spent being what is and less time spent wrapped up and chasing stories of the mind. I expect that this experience will father crack the inertia and gravity of conditioning that keeps my attention in endless monkey mind thought stories.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I started seeking at 18, got veered into into a psycho-spiritual cultish like experience with a zen/warrior/martial arts teacher till I was 34 and then spent 4 years roaming Taosist, Buddhist and Sufi practices and teachers searching for the truth. A couple years ago I realized that the truth was not to be found by finding the perfect practice or teaching but through breaking down experience. I have used various methods or non dual inquiry and resting in awareness for the last year and have felt a true shift. That said, I find myself at the edge of a greater freedom and feel both the monkey mind and fear of loss of control holding me back. I would greatly appreciate help and guidance.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 11

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Canfora
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Re: In gratitude would love help to release the story

Postby Canfora » Mon May 16, 2016 9:54 am

Good morning, FindingHere01 (do you want to be called like this?) and welcome to the LU forum. I'm Sandra and I can be your guide if that's ok with you. A guide is someone that points you where to look, it is not a teacher, it is not a guru, it's just someone who can help you with this specific inquiry because it knows the direct path to the seeing that there isn't a separate self in reality.
A couple years ago I realized that the truth was not to be found by finding the perfect practice or teaching but through breaking down experience.
Yes.
I have used various methods or non dual inquiry and resting in awareness for the last year and have felt a true shift. That said, I find myself at the edge of a greater freedom and feel both the monkey mind and fear of loss of control holding me back.
Would you say you can see the monkey mind while it's doing it's thing or you only become aware of being lost in thoughts after a while? Do you expect to have control over the monkey mind as a result of seeing you're not a self?

At the moment, what do you think you are - when you say I, what do you think an I is, what do you think you are?
A person inside the body, an entity separated from life? How would you explain to someone that you are an I, what are your proofs of the existence of such a thing?
Don't worry with finding the perfect answer. As you know, monkey mind is changing constantly. Just consider how do you know you are a self and share your thoughts about what this self is.

Looking forward to your reply,
Sandra

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FindingHere01
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Re: In gratitude would love help to release the story

Postby FindingHere01 » Tue May 17, 2016 12:38 am

Hi Sandra, thank you so much for the reply. Please call me Noam moving forward. I am extremely grateful to have your guidance.
Would you say you can see the monkey mind while it's doing it's thing or you only become aware of being lost in thoughts after a while? Do you expect to have control over the monkey mind as a result of seeing you're not a self?
I can see the monkey mind doing its thing both from awareness in moments of clarity and after my attention has been caught up in it for a while and I have an aha moment.

I do not expect to have control over the monkey mind as a result of seeing that I am not a self however hope that my attention will not be as continuously trapped inside its process as it is now.
At the moment, what do you think you are - when you say I, what do you think an I is, what do you think you are?
A person inside the body, an entity separated from life? How would you explain to someone that you are an I, what are your proofs of the existence of such a thing?
When I look inside to see what I am, I see an impersonal awareness with thought processes, feelings, energy and sensations within it. From within the thoughts Noam exists as multiple thought streams and memory streams interacting and bouncing around however the awareness they all rest in is not separate from the air that I am breathing, the light that seen and the sounds that are heard.

When I let go into that oneness, I feel a fear come up. A sense of losing control of the car.

Back to your question:

What do I think I am: a stream of self reflecting thoughts and memories appearing in awareness. The reflective nature of the thoughts creates a referential point identified as Noam that disappears as soon as the point of focus rests back in awareness.

I have proof that awareness, thoughts, memories and sensations exist and the combination seems to make up a thought stream with a perceived sense of identity. That said, I see that the awareness that is behind all of that includes but is a lot more than the thought stream with the identity of Noam. The awareness includes all that is being perceived.

So Noam does not exist as a separate self from the awareness that includes all things perceived.

I spend most of my day with my attention tied up in the hall of mirrors of thought and am hoping that this process will free up my attention to rest in awareness. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

Thank you again for your help,

Warmly,
Noam

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Canfora
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Re: In gratitude would love help to release the story

Postby Canfora » Tue May 17, 2016 4:55 pm

Hi Noam!

Nice first try with the quote function. You did something that placed all the text inside a quote. You can check if your reply is ok by clicking Preview before submitting.
I can see the monkey mind doing its thing both from awareness in moments of clarity and after my attention has been caught up in it for a while and I have an aha moment.
Good.
I do not expect to have control over the monkey mind as a result of seeing that I am not a self however hope that my attention will not be as continuously trapped inside its process as it is now.
I think that taming thoughts is the kind of thing that takes practice. And seeing that the self is an illusion isn't a practice, in itself, so it is not a means to an end. This expectation may happen or not.
When I let go into that oneness, I feel a fear come up. A sense of losing control of the car.
Good noticing!

I suppose you aren't experiencing fear right now, while reading these words, but if you are or when you do experience fear, I suggest that you have a look at this experience of feeling fear.

Fear can be a protection mechanism triggered by this inquiry that seems to pop up to protect you from what is being perceived as a threat. So instead of following the pull to avoid fear (like we usually do), welcome the fear and be curious. Have a look to what is happening in your immediate experience and find the answers to these questions:
  • What is fear itself?
    What is it protecting?
    What needs to be protected?
    What is that feels threatened?

    Now look behind it.
    Is there anything behind the fear?
    if so, what? And what is behind that?
( note that the silence is not the absence of answer, it is the answer)

If you try this, let me know how it goes. And if fear keeps appearing during our investigation, let me know also, so we can deal with it.
When I look inside to see what I am, I see an impersonal awareness with thought processes, feelings, energy and sensations within it.
Is "inside" the inside of the body? Do you think the body is a kind of container and all these things are happening somewhere inside the body?

Does that mean you think there is a you inside the body? Try to find this you. Where would you say it is located? Somewhere inside the head, in the chest, in the stomach? Or would the totality of the body equal a person, an entity?
What do I think I am: a stream of self reflecting thoughts and memories appearing in awareness. The reflective nature of the thoughts creates a referential point identified as Noam that disappears as soon as the point of focus rests back in awareness.
You say this is what you think you are and you are right, these are thoughts.

We are looking for the "thing", the subject, the person, the you, the separate self - not for the thoughts about it. Does this make sense? If a you exists, it must be findable, the same way a cup is findable.

Can you have a look to what is present right now, your immediate here and now experience and compare these thoughts with what is happening (what can be seen, tasted, smelled, heard, felt...)?

Can you describe the experience of a self?
Can you describe the experience of a referential point?

How do you know a self and a referential point exist?

Let me know if I'm going too fast or if something is unclear.

Hug

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FindingHere01
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Re: In gratitude would love help to release the story

Postby FindingHere01 » Wed May 18, 2016 3:27 pm

Hi Sandra,

Thank you so much again for the reply and guiding me through this. I will respond to the second part of your questions in this post and will come back to the fear.
Is "inside" the inside of the body? Do you think the body is a kind of container and all these things are happening somewhere inside the body?
When I investigate where the thoughts and feeling are arising from that make up "Noam", they have no physical location and are arising from what I perceive as vast open space. I just don't know if the vast open space is a projection of my brain and nervous system.
We are looking for the "thing", the subject, the person, the you, the separate self - not for the thoughts about it. Does this make sense? If a you exists, it must be findable, the same way a cup is findable.
Yes this makes sense.
Can you have a look to what is present right now, your immediate here and now experience and compare these thoughts with what is happening (what can be seen, tasted, smelled, heard, felt...)?
My here and now experience: the different colors and shapes of my desk and screen, the feeling of the keyboard under my fingers, feeling the air coming into my nose, the sound of the birds, my feet on the footrest.

My thoughts: a separate arising that aggregates, comments on and interprets a past memory of sense inputs.
Can you describe the experience of a self?
The experience of the self arises when thoughts are referencing memories and aggregating them into an identity.
Can you describe the experience of a referential point?
I would describe it in three ways:

1) A feeling that "I" am sitting in my head looking out but when I break that down I can't find the I". It just seems to be case because my eyes are the dominant perception tool and happen to be in my head.
2) Attention being "inside" the thought and not inside and outside the thought in open space. I don't know if this makes sense.
How do you know a self and a referential point exist?
I actually don't know that a self exists. When perceiving directly there is no separate self just energy, awareness and action. Its the thoughts that reference memories about past perceptions that label those as a being called "Noam".

I also don't know that a referential point exists. I just know that the filter of conscious attention gets localized in thoughts and sense perceptions. I can see that this is a perception and although it is localized it is sitting in a bigger space\non-space.

With warmth and gratitude,

Noam

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Canfora
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Re: In gratitude would love help to release the story

Postby Canfora » Wed May 18, 2016 5:05 pm

Hi Noam!

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.
I will respond to the second part of your questions in this post and will come back to the fear.
Okay.
When I investigate where the thoughts and feeling are arising from that make up "Noam", they have no physical location and are arising from what I perceive as vast open space.
Which is the sense that tells you a vast open space is being experienced?
The experience of the self arises when thoughts are referencing memories and aggregating them into an identity.
Does this mean that you are experiencing a self that is made of a bunch of memories (thoughts about the past)? Can you please look at this self and describe it?
I actually don't know that a self exists. When perceiving directly there is no separate self just energy, awareness and action. Its the thoughts that reference memories about past perceptions that label those as a being called "Noam".

Can you give me an example of a thought that makes Noam seem real please?

Hug,
Sandra

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FindingHere01
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Re: In gratitude would love help to release the story

Postby FindingHere01 » Thu May 19, 2016 3:20 pm

Hi Sandra,

Thank you again, I very much appreciate you spending the time working with me. Below is my latest investigation.
Which is the sense that tells you a vast open space is being experienced?
Wow...this one is really tricky. Hearing, Feeling, Seeing, thinking are appearing in something that feels like it has a spacious quality and the sense that is picking up the spacious quality is an awareness that seems to be extended beyond my physical body. Its emptiness that feels spacious and non-spacious if that makes any sense at all.
Does this mean that you are experiencing a self that is made of a bunch of memories (thoughts about the past)?
Yes and more. The self seems to be a thinking process that is reflecting on the past and applying it to the future.
Can you please look at this self and describe it?
It is a bunch of thought processes that use the term "I". "I" need to work out this problem at work. If "I" don't resolve this something may happen. "I" did a great job yesterday presenting. "I" feel tired.
Can you give me an example of a thought that makes Noam seem real please?
The thoughts are referencing a "doer" that needs to act in order to make something happen in the world. For example, "Noam" needs to send an email to clear up a problem. Most of the thoughts are contemplating action to solve a problem and the need for the actor to do something makes it seem real that there is an actor.

Warmly and with much gratitude,

Noam

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Canfora
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Re: In gratitude would love help to release the story

Postby Canfora » Thu May 19, 2016 4:40 pm

Hi Noam,
Thank you again, I very much appreciate you spending the time working with me.
That's very kind of you. It's my pleasure.
The self seems to be a thinking process that is reflecting on the past and applying it to the future.
When you write "seems to be", does that mean you are not sure if what you are saying is true or not?

I'm guessing that you thought about what a self could be instead of looking for one?

Let's say I ask you to find a cat. And you search for the cat until you find one or until you are sure there is none here and now. If you find a cat, you can tell me: "yes, here is the cat, look how pretty he is" and if you don't find the cat you can tell me: "no, I've looked everywhere and there isn't a cat here". It's this kind of simple, experiential, sensory looking that is our goal. If a self exists it has to be findable, like a cat, or a apple or a cloud.

So if you look for a self (physically look - like you would do if you wanted to find your keys), do you find one?
It is a bunch of thought processes that use the term "I". "I" need to work out this problem at work. If "I" don't resolve this something may happen. "I" did a great job yesterday presenting. "I" feel tired.
Can you see this is a story about an I? What happens if you try to find this subject, this character?

You've been describing a self that is made of thoughts. Do you notice that Santa Claus is also made of thoughts? Could it be that the self you are describing is similar to Santa: a story?
The thoughts are referencing a "doer" that needs to act in order to make something happen in the world. For example, "Noam" needs to send an email to clear up a problem. Most of the thoughts are contemplating action to solve a problem and the need for the actor to do something makes it seem real that there is an actor.
Yes, I understand what you're saying. Let's try a little exercise to check if this idea that a doer is needed to perform something is true.

Move a hand up and down and check what is causing the movement of the hand.
Do this as many times as needed.

Is a thought making the hand move every time - or sometimes the hand moves because it does (without a apparent cause)?

You can see the hand... can you also see an entity making the hand move - a doer?

Share how this goes and don't worry with giving the "right" answer. The goal is to observe and report what you see happening, nothing more.

Hug!

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FindingHere01
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Re: In gratitude would love help to release the story

Postby FindingHere01 » Sat May 21, 2016 3:32 pm

Hi Sandra,

Apologies for skipping a day in reply time. Below are my reflections for today :)
When you write "seems to be", does that mean you are not sure if what you are saying is true or not?
There are thoughts of doubt that a separate self just made up of thoughts reflecting on and identifying with experience can not be imaginary. That said, when I look at the statement that "Noam is a bundle of thoughts reflecting on and identified with experience and memories" that statement is true. I know that statement is true because when experiencing senses directly such as the typing, the seeing of the black keyboard, the hearing of the sounds and just all that is happening now there is no "Noam". "Noam" only exists when a thought process steps back from what is happening NOW and is creating a story about it that connects memories to this NOW.
I'm guessing that you thought about what a self could be instead of looking for one?
Yes and I did look for one. And then when I could not find it there is a theory of what it could be made up of thinking of what this self could be. I feel confused.
So if you look for a self (physically look - like you would do if you wanted to find your keys), do you find one?
I just looked for a pen and found it on my desk. I looked for my hand an found it attached to the body that I am seeing. I am looking for a self that decided to look for the pen and find it...I feel a lot of anxiety, pressure in my chest, because I can't find a separate "Noam" outside of all this that is happening. Your email, some thoughts interacting, a thought that came out of that and a prompt to move the body to grab the pen, all just interacting. All of it is happening together. There is no ONE that this is happening to. CRAP. And then the thought of doubt that I am spewing up something that was read in a non-duality book. However that is also a thought that I can not identify a separate owner too.
Can you see this is a story about an I? What happens if you try to find this subject, this character?
When I ask, "What am I", i feel a lot of pressure and heat in my chest. This is because I can not find this character. There is only typing, breathing, seeing, hearing, pressure. My experience is that it is all just happening now. The typing is happening by itself. And there is a feeling of fear. No one is there and the typing is still happening and the fear is happening. Behind the fear is a voice saying oh my god I don't exist. I don't have power. This is just a thought happening in the now and everything is still here even with that thought freaking out.
You can see the hand... can you also see an entity making the hand move - a doer?
I can not see a doer. I just see the hand, feel the hand, feel the thinking about the hand moving. It is all just happening NOW. No doer. Just all happening. Then I feel the fear again. So....
What is fear itself?
Pressure in the chest area. Thoughts saying "stop" "stop". Heat.
What is it protecting?
These thoughts that think they need to be in control to make experience safe.
What needs to be protected?
The body because it has been hurt before. The feelings because there has been extreme pain.
What is that feels threatened?
A "thinker" that is trying to control
Now look behind it.
Is there anything behind the fear?
Behind the fear there is memories of painful experience
if so, what? And what is behind that?
Just awareness that the memories appear in.

I feel that there is something that needs to be let go. Something that is trying to control the flow of NOW. Something that is trying to protect this body and this emotional container from feeling pain. Something that does not trust the NOW that is just happening on its own without interference. Trust comes up.

Wow...I feel like I made some progress today. Again I greatly appreciate everything you are doing to help.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.

Noam

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Canfora
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Re: In gratitude would love help to release the story

Postby Canfora » Sat May 21, 2016 9:41 pm

Very busy day here, skipping a day too. I will read your post and answer tomorrow!

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Canfora
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Re: In gratitude would love help to release the story

Postby Canfora » Sun May 22, 2016 9:43 pm

Hi Noam,
I just looked for a pen and found it on my desk. I looked for my hand an found it attached to the body that I am seeing. I am looking for a self that decided to look for the pen and find it...I feel a lot of anxiety, pressure in my chest, because I can't find a separate "Noam" outside of all this that is happening. Your email, some thoughts interacting, a thought that came out of that and a prompt to move the body to grab the pen, all just interacting. All of it is happening together. There is no ONE that this is happening to. CRAP. And then the thought of doubt that I am spewing up something that was read in a non-duality book. However that is also a thought that I can not identify a separate owner too.
Very good! Nice catch of the story thoughts were creating.

And good job with the fear too. You have looked and didn't found a you, yes? Consider the possibility that there never was a you and life is already happening without one. Could it be there is nothing to fear? Maybe the self was only a belief that never was seen as a believe?

If fear appears again, try to see where it is coming from. We think the fear is rooted in what we are, but can you see|experience an I that is afraid? An I that needs protection? An I that is the reason why the fear is being felt - that causes the fear the same way clouds cause rain?

Let's go back to finding a you. If you look to what is in your immediate experience, what can you see that you are sure is a self?

You're doing great, Noam!

Hug,
Sandra

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FindingHere01
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Re: In gratitude would love help to release the story

Postby FindingHere01 » Mon May 23, 2016 2:18 pm

Hi Sandra,

Thank you so much for the positive encouragement. That is really appreciated. I hope you had a wonderful weekend.
You have looked and didn't found a you, yes? Consider the possibility that there never was a you and life is already happening without one
Yes, absolutely. I looked and did not find a me. I just found life happening and a story of a me. But when I looked deeper into the story I could not find any one behind it. I can absolutely consider the possibility that there never was a me and that life is just happening. In fact, since this realization I have felt lighter.
Could it be there is nothing to fear? Maybe the self was only a belief that never was seen as a believe?
Yes absolutely. If the self is only a belief then there is nothing to fear about the disintegration of that belief.
Let's go back to finding a you. If you look to what is in your immediate experience, what can you see that you are sure is a self?
Ok. Back to my immediate experience. Typing on the keyboard. Sound of the typing. The white noise machine. Thoughts that are labeling keyboard, the sound machine, a memory of the sound machine, an image of my sleeping wife in the bedroom. All of this is just happening. Who is this happening to? It is all happening in awareness. Is the awareness me? The awareness contains all that is being experienced within it. The thought "who am I" happens in awareness and is not separate from it. Who asked "who am I"? I can not find a separate questioner. All I can find are perceptions, thoughts, sounds, interacting within awareness.

I will try an experiment by closing my eyes to find the "I" that closes them. There was a thought to close them. But they opened up by themselves. Here comes the fear.
If fear appears again, try to see where it is coming from. We think the fear is rooted in what we are, but can you see|experience an I that is afraid? An I that needs protection? An I that is the reason why the fear is being felt - that causes the fear the same way clouds cause rain?
I can not see an I that is afraid. Just sensation that is uncomfortable to the body and thoughts happening in awareness related to memories of pain.

I have a feeling that something dropped away. I see this story of I. Its a bit of a joke that there was ever anyone with control of "this". There is really no "one" in control. This is disorienting and also freeing because it means that my thoughts that I was in "control" were never true. What was I working so hard on "improving" and "disciplining".

WOW. I feel like something opened up. Back to the day ahead.

Thank you so much again. You are wonderful and so much appreciated.

Noam

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Canfora
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Re: In gratitude would love help to release the story

Postby Canfora » Mon May 23, 2016 7:50 pm

Hi Noam!

A quick notice: it is possible that our posts will move into a second page soon and sometimes that's not noticed by someone that is not familiar with the forum. I suppose you are getting email notifications when I post?
Yes, absolutely. I looked and did not find a me. I just found life happening and a story of a me. But when I looked deeper into the story I could not find any one behind it. I can absolutely consider the possibility that there never was a me and that life is just happening. In fact, since this realization I have felt lighter.
Wonderful!
Just to be sure that this ^ is experiential: when you say look, you mean look? Not think about it?
Yes absolutely. If the self is only a belief then there is nothing to fear about the disintegration of that belief.
Big yes. It's a little like realizing that Santa Claus isn't real.
Ok. Back to my immediate experience. Typing on the keyboard. Sound of the typing. The white noise machine. Thoughts that are labeling keyboard, the sound machine, a memory of the sound machine, an image of my sleeping wife in the bedroom. All of this is just happening.
Yes, very nice.
It is all happening in awareness.
You keep bringing awareness to the conversation and this sounds like something that you have learned. Can you describe awareness - this awareness that seems to be a thing, a container? How do you know that everything is happening in awareness? Do you see awareness?
The awareness contains all that is being experienced within it.
If everything is happening in awareness (inside awareness), does that mean there is an outside of awareness? Can this be seen, experienced? Or is just an idea?
The thought "who am I" happens in awareness and is not separate from it. Who asked "who am I"? I can not find a separate questioner. All I can find are perceptions, thoughts, sounds, interacting within awareness.
Hmm... ok, you like the label "awareness" and I like the labeling "what is happening" :)
Do you believe that you are awareness or that awareness is a thing?
I can not see an I that is afraid. Just sensation that is uncomfortable to the body and thoughts happening in awareness related to memories of pain.
Do you notice how resisting the fear intensifies the sensations and makes you want to avoid them? What happens if you do the opposite and stay with the sensation, if you allow the sensations and observe them with curiosity? Is a sensation more than a sensation? It can feel uncomfortable but is the sensation fear? Or is the story that is being thought that is causing the uncomfortable sensations and the labeling of the sensations as being fear?
I have a feeling that something dropped away. I see this story of I. Its a bit of a joke that there was ever anyone with control of "this". There is really no "one" in control. This is disorienting and also freeing because it means that my thoughts that I was in "control" were never true. What was I working so hard on "improving" and "disciplining".
Yes. We try so hard to be a better person. Would you say that you are ok as you are? Or in other words, could Noam be different than it is?
WOW. I feel like something opened up. Back to the day ahead.
I appreciate your openness and your joy in doing this inquiry! I hope that even with the fear, you can see how much fun it is to look for the answers to these questions, instead of trusting blindly in your beliefs.
Thank you so much again. You are wonderful and so much appreciated.
That's very kind of you. It's my pleasure :)

Hug,
Sandra

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FindingHere01
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Re: In gratitude would love help to release the story

Postby FindingHere01 » Tue May 24, 2016 3:11 pm

Hi Sandra,

I really look forward to exploring your questions in the morning. Again, lot of gratitude for the time you are spending working with me.
I suppose you are getting email notifications when I post?
Yes I do. That should ensure that I find your posts :)
Just to be sure that this ^ is experiential: when you say look, you mean look? Not think about it?
Yes absolutely this is experiential. It was the process of looking for something tangible in my immediate experience that could be labeled as a "me" separate from experience. I can not find anything that I can label as a separate "me".
You keep bringing awareness to the conversation and this sounds like something that you have learned. Can you describe awareness - this awareness that seems to be a thing, a container? How do you know that everything is happening in awareness? Do you see awareness?
Yes absolutely. The label "awareness" is something that I have learned from multiple traditions and teachers. I love that you are challenging this. I can only describe it in analogies that are not mine and now I see that I may be limiting myself. It is the "background" that all the senses and thoughts and memories are happening "in". I do not see, hear or feel awareness with my bodily sensations. It is very difficult to describe. I feel confused about it actually. In a sense it is no-thing-ness out of which or within the thoughts, feeling, memories happen. As I am questioning that my brain feels like its stuck in a tongue twister.
If everything is happening in awareness (inside awareness), does that mean there is an outside of awareness? Can this be seen, experienced? Or is just an idea?
There is no outside of awareness. There is only a thought of something that could be outside of awareness. Like the thought of a car that I can not hear on a far away street. "Awareness" is an idea.
Hmm... ok, you like the label "awareness" and I like the labeling "what is happening" :)
Do you believe that you are awareness or that awareness is a thing?
I have a belief that "I" am awareness and that belief is from spiritual books that I have read and certain meditation techniques that i have practiced which separated sensations and thoughts from a "screen" they are happening in. What I am labeling as awareness is not a thing. I can not describe this thing I am calling awareness. It is also a story. There is actually only what is happening "right now". Thought analyzes something and calls a container for sensations awareness.
Do you notice how resisting the fear intensifies the sensations and makes you want to avoid them?
Yes. When I intentionally welcome the sensations, there is a "softness" to them. When my mind reacts against them, they get stronger.
What happens if you do the opposite and stay with the sensation, if you allow the sensations and observe them with curiosity? Is a sensation more than a sensation?
The sensation itself is only a sensation. In this case a pressure on my chest. When I feel the sensation memories are triggered. The sensation is only a sensation. The memories are only memories however they "feel" real because of the sensation that is happening.
It can feel uncomfortable but is the sensation fear? Or is the story that is being thought that is causing the uncomfortable sensations and the labeling of the sensations as being fear?
The sensation on its own is not fear. It is just in my chest area. The story that is being thought and the memories that are being recalled is labeled as fear. This in turn seems to reinforce the sensation. When I welcome the sensation and welcome the memories and label them as such they feel softer and have less power.
Would you say that you are ok as you are? Or in other words, could Noam be different than it is?


Noam could not be any different than it is. And then there is a thought, "Is this it?". "IS THIS ALL THAT THERE IS?" "I HAVE ALL THIS WORK TO DO". I can see that that is also just a thought that is happening in "THIS". Now reality feels like just a bunch of processes bumping against each other and I come back to a core question. "Who decided to respond to this email" "Who is becoming liberated?" "What is becoming liberated?". "What is dis-satisfied?"

I have to get my day going and feel like my brain exploded a little...thank you so much again. This is such a valuable experience for me.

Noam

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Canfora
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Re: In gratitude would love help to release the story

Postby Canfora » Tue May 24, 2016 5:16 pm

Hi Noam!
Yes absolutely this is experiential. It was the process of looking for something tangible in my immediate experience that could be labeled as a "me" separate from experience. I can not find anything that I can label as a separate "me".
Yay! How does it feel to see this? And how does it feel to see how simple it is (not easy, simple...) :) ?
Yes absolutely. The label "awareness" is something that I have learned from multiple traditions and teachers. I love that you are challenging this. I can only describe it in analogies that are not mine and now I see that I may be limiting myself.
Yes!
I do not see, hear or feel awareness with my bodily sensations. It is very difficult to describe. I feel confused about it actually. In a sense it is no-thing-ness out of which or within the thoughts, feeling, memories happen. As I am questioning that my brain feels like its stuck in a tongue twister.
When you think about these things you are trying to find the words to describe what can't be described. The experience is not the label, it's not the concept. It can feel disorienting yes - because you are going "outside the box" to find the answers.
There is no outside of awareness. There is only a thought of something that could be outside of awareness. Like the thought of a car that I can not hear on a far away street. "Awareness" is an idea.
Yes!
I have a belief that "I" am awareness and that belief is from spiritual books that I have read and certain meditation techniques that i have practiced which separated sensations and thoughts from a "screen" they are happening in. What I am labeling as awareness is not a thing. I can not describe this thing I am calling awareness. It is also a story. There is actually only what is happening "right now". Thought analyzes something and calls a container for sensations awareness.
Yes again. It is not a thing and can't be grasped by thinking about it. It is. What? This. What is this? Unknowable by thinking about it. This type of realization can be very frustrating to someone who has been looking for answers for a long time. You seem to be reacting very well. Is not knowing ok? Is this isness that you can see when you look a reliable "substitute" for the need to find answers? (I'm not sure if I'm writing this question in the best way. Let me try again... are answers needed when there is this to explore?)

I'm not implying that all the seeking and questions will stop as a result of this inquiry. It took me a long time after the gate for the pull to try to find answers to come to an halt. When something that is moving is turned off, the movement may not stop immediately. And seeking is an habit.
The sensation itself is only a sensation. In this case a pressure on my chest. When I feel the sensation memories are triggered. The sensation is only a sensation. The memories are only memories however they "feel" real because of the sensation that is happening.
Nice.
The sensation on its own is not fear. It is just in my chest area. The story that is being thought and the memories that are being recalled is labeled as fear. This in turn seems to reinforce the sensation. When I welcome the sensation and welcome the memories and label them as such they feel softer and have less power.
Yes.
Noam could not be any different than it is. And then there is a thought, "Is this it?". "IS THIS ALL THAT THERE IS?" "I HAVE ALL THIS WORK TO DO".
This made me laugh! Wonderful that you have noticed this pull to think that "something needs to be done". Did you notice also how this pull seems to make this now experience incomplete when it is all there is?

Anyway, if you can't find a self how will you change a self for the better?
(and I'm not saying that trying to be better can't be done or is a bad thing. this is a gently invitation to make you see that you couldn't be any different than you are right now, and are inherently okay as you are)
Now reality feels like just a bunch of processes bumping against each other and I come back to a core question. "Who decided to respond to this email" "Who is becoming liberated?" "What is becoming liberated?". "What is dis-satisfied?"
Are these thoughts reality or the story that leads to seeking was triggered by something?

Without the questions, can you see the answer? If you look, can you find a you, a what, a who?
I have to get my day going and feel like my brain exploded a little...thank you so much again. This is such a valuable experience for me.
It's my pleasure and you are doing great!

A big hug,
Sandra


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