Free will and Ilusion

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_007
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Free will and Ilusion

Postby _007 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:00 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I wish to end the Illusion of free will

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I wish to be guided by vinceschubert.
I expect from him to help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I am new in this area.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 9

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vinceschubert
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Re: Free will and Ilusion

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:12 am

Ok James, let's go.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
Language. The perfect place to begin.
Read what you wrote, and ponder the specifics of what you meant.
Don't read any further until this is clear in your mind.











Now, pick from the following, the one that is most accurate to your intent.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
Why did you capitalize the i in Illusion ?
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
or did you mean;
help me see through the Illusion of the existence of a false Self. ?
..or "help me see through the existence of the illusion of a self. The illusion (being an illusion) is a false representation of what is actual.
Self is false.
Illusion is true.
...or something else ?

Now, i'm not trying to change language. For the sake of our investigation, to be precise in what we say, is a big plus.
Our language doesn't have words for much of what we are about to discover, so we have to talk in metaphors often.
The exercise above is to highlight this point(ing)
It (probably) also evoked many nuances inherent in this exploration.
As well as language being limiting, it is also a portal (into recognizing the nature of the illusions)
You know, before a certain point in history, the color blue didn't exist.
Because there was no word for it. http://www.businessinsider.com.au/what- ... ?r=UK&IR=T
You are conditioned. The organism has been shaped by the conditions it encountered.
One of those conditions is the language that you were steeped in.
How well you knew it. How it was spoken in your neighborhood. etc, etc.
You (mostly) think in words.
Words reinforce conditioned responses.
Conditioned emotional reactions, reinforce the words that justify them.
Can you find a whole storybook of words about a Self ?
Can you find anything other than words, about a Self ? Anywhere ?

love

vince

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_007
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Re: Free will and Ilusion

Postby _007 » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:36 pm

Hi Vince,

thank you very much for accepting to guide me :-)

I have just get the first Message from the Admin, that you have answered me.
Read what you wrote, and ponder the specifics of what you meant.
Don't read any further until this is clear in your mind.
I will better rewrite this in this new sentence:

Seeing through the Illusion(= Is the Existence of a Self)









Now, pick from the following, the one that is most accurate to your intent.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
Why did you capitalize the i in Illusion ?
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
help me see through the Illusion of the false existence of a Self.
or did you mean;
help me see through the Illusion of the existence of a false Self. ?
..or "help me see through the existence of the illusion of a self. The illusion (being an illusion) is a false representation of what is actual.
Self is false.
Illusion is true.
...or something else ?

Now, i'm not trying to change language. For the sake of our investigation, to be precise in what we say, is a big plus.
Our language doesn't have words for much of what we are about to discover, so we have to talk in metaphors often.
The exercise above is to highlight this point(ing)
It (probably) also evoked many nuances inherent in this exploration.
As well as language being limiting, it is also a portal (into recognizing the nature of the illusions)
You know, before a certain point in history, the color blue didn't exist.
Because there was no word for it. http://www.businessinsider.com.au/what- ... ?r=UK&IR=T
You are conditioned. The organism has been shaped by the conditions it encountered.
One of those conditions is the language that you were steeped in.
How well you knew it. How it was spoken in your neighborhood. etc, etc.
You (mostly) think in words.
Words reinforce conditioned responses.
Conditioned emotional reactions, reinforce the words that justify them.
Can you find a whole storybook of words about a Self ?
Can you find anything other than words, about a Self ? Anywhere ?

love

vince[/quote]

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_007
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Re: Free will and Ilusion

Postby _007 » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:03 pm

Sorry, I haven't seen this:
Why did you capitalize the i in Illusion ?
Cause of my conditioning.

help me see through the Illusion of the existence of a false Self. ?
I mean, Seeing the false (Self) as false. The rest has no sence.

Can you find a whole storybook of words about a Self ?
yes, i.e. me, mine, I, etc....

Can you find anything other than words, about a Self ? Anywhere ?
No

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vinceschubert
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Re: Free will and Ilusion

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:09 pm

Good evening _007,
Can you find anything other than words, about a Self ? Anywhere ?
No
So you can see quite clearly that a Self exists only in the mind ?
When did you first recognize this ?

Have a rant about truth ?

vince

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_007
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Re: Free will and Ilusion

Postby _007 » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:19 pm

So you can see quite clearly that a Self exists only in the mind ?
not clearly, but I have understand it.

When did you first recognize this ?
not yet.
Have a rant about truth ?
Truth is experincing, the rest are stories about it.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Free will and Ilusion

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:53 pm

Good morning _007. i need you to be more verbose with your replies.
In fact, i'm not as interested in your answers, as i am in what happens as you consider the questions.
Don't be concerned with correct grammar. i will get what you mean (or i'll ask)
not clearly, but I have understand it.
When you say, "not clearly", what is unclear ? (please answer every ?)
not yet.
How long ago did "understanding" first start to happen ?
Have a rant about truth ?
A "rant" means to let words spill out, without editing.
Truth is experiencing,
Does this experiencing, include thoughts ?

vince

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_007
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Re: Free will and Ilusion

Postby _007 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:29 am

I will do my best.
When you say, "not clearly", what is unclear ? (please answer every ?)
I mean, I have not seen yet quite clearly that a Self exists only in the mind.
If I am relaxed, there is understanding, that the Self is a concept of thougts.
But If I am in the turmoil of dealy live, there is the forgetting of this fact.
What is uncleaar, is Seeing that the Self exists only in the mind, without a Storie about it.
How long ago did "understanding" first start to happen ?
Understanding first start to happen, since reading your threads on Libaration Unleashed for 1 month ago.
Does this experiencing, include thoughts ?
thoughts come very quickly that I can't separate experiencing from thoughts.
I seems so, that this experiencing includes thougts.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Free will and Ilusion

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:21 pm

Good morning _007,
I will do my best.
Look and see if you can find an intention to use more words. Each time when you answer, read it and ask yourself if you have included what was happening in your mind and body, as you considered the question.
Did you find that intention ?
I mean, I have not seen yet quite clearly that a Self exists only in the mind.
Yet you say that you do see it clearly when you are relaxed, and don't think about it when you are busy. Are you making an average of this ?
But If I am in the turmoil of daily life, there is the forgetting of this fact.
This is because you have habits. How can the habit, of having an emotional reaction to events, be changed ?
Have you ever changed a habit ? (eg. quit smoking ?)
What is unclear, is Seeing that the Self exists only in the mind, without a Storie about it.
Have you found (ever) another Self ? Anything other than story ? Have you looked ?

vince

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_007
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Re: Free will and Ilusion

Postby _007 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:50 am

Did you find that intention ?
If I considere this question, I can't find any intention to use more words.
Yet you say that you do see it clearly when you are relaxed, and don't think about it when you are busy. Are you making an average of this ?
The understanding is there if I am relaxed and I if I am stressed I can't regonise it.
This is because you have habits. How can the habit, of having an emotional reaction to events, be changed ?
No, The habit of reacting to events can't be changed, because it is automatic.

Have you ever changed a habit ? (eg. quit smoking ?)
No, I couldn't. It is brandmarked and can't be changed without getting depressed.
Have you found (ever) another Self ? Anything other than story ? Have you looked ?
If I look I can't find any Self or anything other than a strong indentification whith this story about a Self.
The conditioning of this identification is so dominant that I can't act free in dealy live. And that's the point.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Free will and Ilusion

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:08 pm

Good evening _007.
I can't find any intention to use more words.
Does the way you use words 'say something' about you ? Is it part of your personality ?
The understanding is there if I am relaxed and I if I am stressed I can't regonise it.
Would you say that you don't recognize it because you are too involved in 'living it out' ?
The understanding is there if I am relaxed and I if I am stressed I can't regonise it.
Does this mean that you don't understand it when stressed ? ..or just don't recognize that you understand it ? That the understanding is there but just not 'up front' ?
No, The habit of reacting to events can't be changed, because it is automatic.
Haha. You haven't heard about Neuroplasticity, have you ?
Have a look at this video; https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... g.mp4?dl=0
What are your thoughts on that video ?
Do you still think that habits can't be changed ?
The conditioning of this identification is so dominant that I can't act freely in daily life.
How would you define "acting freely ?

vince

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_007
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Re: Free will and Ilusion

Postby _007 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:03 pm

Does the way you use words 'say something' about you ? Is it part of your personality ?
Would you say that you don't recognize it because you are too involved in 'living it out' ?
I don’t regonize it, because I am emerged in dealy life and the identification with the Self has the command of all my reactions of the events that come.
Does this mean that you don't understand it when stressed ? ..or just don't recognize that you understand it ? That the understanding is there but just not 'up front' ?
This means that I just don’t recognize that I understand it.
With Understanding, I mean here “the intellectual understanding” and is up front and dominate my reactions.
Haha. You haven't heard about Neuroplasticity, have you ?
I have heard about Neuroplasticity and I knew also some stories about this person. He has made a lot of mony with telling people good stories. I recommend you to read his story about his accident, and tell me please if you can trust this man (how-i-healed-myself-after-breaking-6-vertebrae without doctors )
http://www.healyourlife.com/how-i-heale ... -vertebrae
What are your thoughts on that video ?
It’s very very interesting, the brain is a big mystery, something that is difficult or impossible to understand or explain.
Do you still think that habits can't be changed ?
You are right, habits can be changed. I am now convince.
How would you define "acting freely ?

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_007
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Re: Free will and Ilusion

Postby _007 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:05 pm

Acting freely means without the manipulation of thoughts, conditioning and habits.

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_007
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Re: Free will and Ilusion

Postby _007 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:06 pm

The way I use words is very conditioned and it say a lot about me. Therefore it influences my personality.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Free will and Ilusion

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:30 pm

Good morning _007
Therefore it influences my personality.
Would you call this personality, a Self ?
Acting freely means without the manipulation of thoughts, conditioning and habits.
Manipulation is a strong word. It suggests that you are fed information to get a particular outcome. Do you see that the nature of thoughts that arise, are filtered to fit this purpose ?
i would see conditioning as the way habits are formed. Would you agree ?
Now some habits are useful. What about getting dressed (as an example). Do you really want to have to consider the way to button your shirt or tie your shoelaces ?
Which habits would you like to eliminate ?
and the identification with the Self has the command of all my reactions of the events that come.
Give me an example of this ?
This means that I just don’t recognize that I understand it.
So the understanding hasn't been changed. It's just that you are not thinking of it at that moment ?
Do you want it to be up front in your thoughts 100% of the time ?
Thanks, i hadn't seen that article before. i have a similar (but not so dramatic) story, that showed me that the organism can heal itself.
Even though it seems that we are the same person as we were yesterday, we are in constant change. It never stops.

love

vince


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