What is this wordless thing.

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Gregor
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What is this wordless thing.

Postby Gregor » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:50 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
The only thing left to explore is my direct experience. I am sick of the needing of something to feel complete. I am sick of the me that analyzes and dissects things. I am unable to do anything to help myself. Every direction I turn is just to glorify myself, to bring advantage to myself. I'm sick of this bastard.
Even this writing is all me me me! Where is the bottom?

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this:
I want freedom to not need this anymore. I have a lot of expectations built up, and at some level I know they're all false. What would change upon knowing myself? Nothing, and everything? How can I say where I have not been before?

I know you cannot give me anything that i don't already have, and I'm still weeping at your feet.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
Poking at imaginary cage bars for years. Demanding from those close to me that they tell me who I am. Read every worthless scrap of manual over direct probing, because the probing Hurts!
I'm fucking scared, that's what. I'm scared to abandon every notion of the way things should go, even though when I do, they are unquestionably better than when my feeble mind attempts to direct them.

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Sleepwalker
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Re: What is this wordless thing.

Postby Sleepwalker » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:58 pm

Hello Gregor ,
My name is Michael and I would be happy to act as your guide. I ask that we are 100% honest with each other and that you make every attempt to post once a day,understanding that things do come up. Setting aside any other forms of inquiry for the duration of this process, and suspending as much as possible your beliefs and expectations.Let me know if you would like to continue. If so I will post the formalities and we can then get started. Thank you.

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Sleepwalker
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Re: What is this wordless thing.

Postby Sleepwalker » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:39 pm

Gregor,
How are you doing? I would very much like to help, please be in touch. Michael.

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Gregor
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Re: What is this wordless thing.

Postby Gregor » Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:40 am

Hi Michael. I really appreciate it. I am happy to begin at once, and pledge to be honest with you.

Thank you for your openness. Let's get started!

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Sleepwalker
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Re: What is this wordless thing.

Postby Sleepwalker » Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:40 pm

Gregor,
Below are general considerations and helpful hints, please acknowledge. Let me know your time zone. I am in the US Eastern Standard time zone.Then write me a description of how currently view your-self. What makes you -you? Thank you!

Housekeeping basics:
Please acknowledge that you have read and understand the L/U disclaimer.
Responses require only simple, basic looking. No theories or what you think the “Right” answers might be. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best kept to direct experience, or some say actual experience, that is, what is present to direct perception ( sight , sound, touch , smell and taste, prior to the interpretation of them.
If one term DE or AE resonates better with you let me know.
Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer spontaneously, without analysis. You can read the article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... experience/ for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience if there is any confusion.

Please learn to use the quote function. Here is how I do it and it works well. After the dialog box is open Hit the Quote box at the top. Two sets of brackets with the words quote and /quote will then appear in the dialog box. After you have highlighted and copied the text you want to show up as a quote, for instance my question, then move your cursor in between the two brackets and LEFT click and select paste from the drop down menu. All the selected text will now be in between the two brackets

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Gregor
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Re: What is this wordless thing.

Postby Gregor » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:01 pm

Hi Michael,

I acknowledge the considerations and hints. I am UTC + 7.

How I currently view my-self.

It is very strange right now. Both complements and negative statements from others seem to pass through me, because I'm no longer sure what they're referring to. Whatever they're referring to isn't what I detect when looking at myself.

What makes me a particular me? Or what is the me-ness? I'm not really sure what I am. There is undeniable presence, but I don't know what it's "anchored to". Maybe it's not anchored to anything. It seems to not be limited by the edges of the body. Yet at the same time, if the body hurts, am I hurting? Right now I don't really know. Something is aware of the pain.

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Sleepwalker
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Re: What is this wordless thing.

Postby Sleepwalker » Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:11 pm

It is very strange right now. Both complements and negative statements from others seem to pass through me, because I'm no longer sure what they're referring to. Whatever they're referring to isn't what I detect when looking at myself.
This is a very good starting point. The complements and criticisms are thoughts that arise, nothing more. Would you agree? Some are verbalized,many are not. Either way they are thoughts. Please set aside a 10 minute period get comfortable then think of a number between 1 and 10 and watch very closely , like a hawk, how the number appears. IF you are choosing the number please describe how the choosing takes place. If not describe how the number appears.
What makes me a particular me? Or what is the me-ness? I'm not really sure what I am. There is undeniable presence, but I don't know what it's "anchored to". Maybe it's not anchored to anything. It seems to not be limited by the edges of the body.
Nice looking! Perhaps it doesn't exist outside of thought. Please take 20 minutes or so and move into a relaxed state and close your eyes and begin to sense your body, describe what is there in DE(Direct Experience). Can you tell the actual shape of the body, how tall it is, how much it weighs, can you sense any boundaries?
Yet at the same time, if the body hurts, am I hurting? Right now I don't really know. Something is aware of the pain.
Is pain any more than sensation? When certain sensations are experienced don't thoughts arise after? It may seem like they are simultaneous but if watched very closely a gap can be seen.The thoughts usually follow a pattern of first labeling the sensation, then assessing what can be done to eliminate it, prolong it or ignore it. Play around with this and see if it rings true. If this is not already the case, I'd like to invite you to bring a sense of playfulness into your inquiry. Or perhaps, playful curiosity would be a better description. Michael

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Sleepwalker
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Re: What is this wordless thing.

Postby Sleepwalker » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:52 pm

Hello Gregor. I haven't heard from you in a couple of days. Is everything OK?

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Gregor
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Re: What is this wordless thing.

Postby Gregor » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:59 am

Hi Michael, I just lost a long response, so let's try again!
The complements and criticisms are thoughts that arise, nothing more.
I think my interpretation of them is a thought, because if I didn't understand the context of the words, they wouldn't have the same effect. Example: you can swear at an animal, or give it praise, and the words are not understood, but the emotional context does seem to be.
IF you are choosing the number please describe how the choosing takes place. If not describe how the number appears.
The number arises from nothingness. Like a form appearing out of a white screen or the numeral shape. My mind also seems to provide several numbers rather than one, as if to say, "Maybe that one isn't right, do you want this one instead?" So in a way it appears that there is choice, because the mind didn't settle and provide one definitive answer, but it also didn't show every number 1-10. Not that "I" chose, but that a choice illusion appeared simply because many options were presented. But I don't know if they were optional!
Nice looking! Perhaps it doesn't exist outside of thought. Please take 20 minutes or so and move into a relaxed state and close your eyes and begin to sense your body, describe what is there in DE(Direct Experience). Can you tell the actual shape of the body, how tall it is, how much it weighs, can you sense any boundaries?
I will do this a bit later today.
The thoughts usually follow a pattern of first labeling the sensation, then assessing what can be done to eliminate it, prolong it or ignore it
Yes, this is my experience. Lately I have had many strange new emotions that I realize when given full attention are not labellable. In a gross sense, I might say I was sad, or angry, but I've literally never experienced these things before. Each has a flavor that I've never tasted, and cannot be given a word, or even a thousand words. Some of them are very strong, and I'm just watching them come and pass without pushing them away. It is very difficult, but very healing. Actually, it's not even difficult, just different than my habits.
Or perhaps, playful curiosity would be a better description.
Thank you for this invitation Michael!

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Sleepwalker
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Re: What is this wordless thing.

Postby Sleepwalker » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:31 pm

Hi Michael, I just lost a long response, so let's try again!
That has happened to me a few times when I forget to compose the response in Word or another program and then paste to the Reply Post.
I think my interpretation of them is a thought, because if I didn't understand the context of the words, they wouldn't have the same effect. Example: you can swear at an animal, or give it praise, and the words are not understood, but the emotional context does seem to be.
Correct! All interpretations or concepts arise as thoughts.I agree with your analogy. Take a look at old video of Hitler's speeches and you can witness in the human realm what you refer to.
The number arises from nothingness. Like a form appearing out of a white screen or the numeral shape. My mind also seems to provide several numbers rather than one, as if to say, "Maybe that one isn't right, do you want this one instead?" So in a way it appears that there is choice, because the mind didn't settle and provide one definitive answer, but it also didn't show every number 1-10. Not that "I" chose, but that a choice illusion appeared simply because many options were presented. But I don't know if they were optional!
Thank you Gregor. Very deep looking. The big question is; was an I needed for the number or numbers to appear?
Yes, this is my experience. Lately I have had many strange new emotions that I realize when given full attention are not labellable. In a gross sense, I might say I was sad, or angry, but I've literally never experienced these things before. Each has a flavor that I've never tasted, and cannot be given a word, or even a thousand words. Some of them are very strong, and I'm just watching them come and pass without pushing them away. It is very difficult, but very healing. Actually, it's not even difficult, just different than my habits.
When we begin to see that life is not happening to us (no one to have it happen to) but as us, it takes on a very different feel. Very nice description. So often once we label something we stop fully experiencing. We settle for at best a condensed version of reality that in many cases holds little resemblance to what is actually before us. So I'm happy you are not motivated to reduce the experience down to a mere label. BEING content with the experience as it is while it is.

I'd like you to be as attentive as possible throughout the day tomorrow, to what is there in AE. Thoughts will arise, don't fight them , just allow them to pass like you've been doing, stay focused as much as possible on the naked senses, paying little attention to the inner commentator. When you see a truck label it-sight, when you hear a plane overhead- sound, the sun warming your face - feeling, thought-thought( regardless of content) thought could be in the form of imagined written words, imagined sound, imagined feelings, these are all still thought because they are imaginary not Actual Experience other than as thought.

Periodically look to see if there is something apart from the Actual Experience? Also ask occasionally if anyone has to do anything for awareness to be present? There's a lot here Please spend the day with these exercises before responding. Put aside any goals, and enjoy the process, just being open to what presents.

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Gregor
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Re: What is this wordless thing.

Postby Gregor » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:53 am

Thank you Michael.

Life is taking a very rich and deep and fascinating flavour.

I have not really practiced labelling before, but I will give it a shot. In the past I had a thought about it being wrong because it was "adding" something to what was already there, or giving the commentator fuel. But that's just a silly thought as well.

Thank you for doing this work with me.
I will need a few days of looking at this, so please bear with me.

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Sleepwalker
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Re: What is this wordless thing.

Postby Sleepwalker » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:39 pm

Gregor,
Thanks for checking in. I'm glad to hear of the shift. The labeling that happens below the radar screen has a different quality about it. Here we are just practicing seeing and labeling from a different perspective for instructional purposes.I'm not suggesting this will become a new permanent way of seeing. Enjoy!!

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Gregor
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Re: What is this wordless thing.

Postby Gregor » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:12 am

I'm not suggesting this will become a new permanent way of seeing. Enjoy!!
Thank you. Understood!

Quick question, maybe off topic:

Does everything done from the perspective of an individual have to suck? It seems like the individual identity sense and what it tries to do is always mucking things up, and *only* in its perceived absence is everything truly alright.

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Sleepwalker
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Re: What is this wordless thing.

Postby Sleepwalker » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:55 pm

Does everything done from the perspective of an individual have to suck? It seems like the individual identity sense and what it tries to do is always mucking things up, and *only* in its perceived absence is everything truly alright.
For me it is only when the SENSE of self is taken to be an ACTUAL self that things become burdensome. If it is clearly seen that there ,truly is no-self, only a sense of self, who is there to be burdened? We will continue to search for this illusive self until A) we find it B) we give up yet still believe it exists, even though we cannot locate it beyond sensations and thoughts C) we see clearly that it does not exist in Actual Experience. Here is a video that may help in some way. In the meantime here's something to keep in mind; You may have heard the adage " Don't believe everything you hear." Well here's one that I think is even better advice," Don't believe everything you think!" The only thing reliable about thoughts are that they keep arising.HAHAHA! Here is the video link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaVHRRxUpog

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Gregor
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Re: What is this wordless thing.

Postby Gregor » Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:46 am

truly is no-self, only a sense of self
So this sense of self remains, but it is not real? What other means of knowledge do I have except for the senses?

The past few days have had a lot of argument and activity. I have not been t. very "aware". No, that's not it... I just haven't taken a moment to breathe and look at what's really there. I've been caught up in sensory perception.

And the sensation was strongly of an individual doing these things.


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