humble request for guide

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Treehouse
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humble request for guide

Postby Treehouse » Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:22 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

I heard about it on a FBA podcast and was curious at first and then inspired to make this request for a guide

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this:

I don't know. simply following an inner prompt. I'm curious and open to new experience

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

I experienced a kind of waking up about 8 years ago and since then have not so much been seeking but more observing my own experience. I'm inspired by the Buddhist tradition and meditate daily.

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Freddi
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Re: humble request for guide

Postby Freddi » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:20 pm

Hi Treehouse! Welcome to LU!
This is fred from France. Very nice to meet you.

A few quick guidelines: look to post daily/regularly or post to say if a break is needed; and set aside any other spiritual practices during our inquiry together.

Also, our disclaimer, here:

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

If you could confirm you have seen the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin.

If you'd like to begin, maybe you could tell me a bit more about this experience 8 years ago, what happened? What did you see?

Warm wishes,
Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Treehouse
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Re: humble request for guide

Postby Treehouse » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:06 am

Hi Fred,

Thank you so much for your reply and offer to be my guide. Yes, I would like you to be my guide.

My experience 8 years ago isn't really much to write about. I've shared it with my wife because she lived it with me but otherwise I haven't shared it. In October of '08 I was traveling and took up the book "A New Earth" because my wife had it with her. At some point in the book, I'm not really sure where or when there was sort of a shift in perspective that was so slight, really, that there was no thoughts about it until the next day. I can't even explain it now really except that I began to notice that there was no experience of resistance. there was a noticing of complete equanimity. I know that I'm writing as if there was no me but I can't say that I had that thought. there wasn't a noticing of 'no me' In fact, as best I can remember, I still had the the thought of me, it was just a me free from any attachment to anything really. My body and mind kept on doing everything as it always had, talking to my wife and daughter, enjoying the sights except that there was not suffering, not one bit, everything was just fine as it happened. And this went on for several years. At first there was a curiosity about whether I might stay in my old circumstances or I might live a meditative life. My default was to just sit in stillness whenever circumstances slowed and there really was some inner momentum to do only that. As it happened, over the years, family life continued as it did - there was no inner debate, just a noticing. pretty quickly, old ways of being in the world fell away and it happened that I returned to school for different training, and changed jobs. What happens now sometimes as thoughts get very busy is that I notice old mind patterns arising that take over. It feels like a kind of falling asleep, this identity with self, and a kind of separation that feels unkind and unreal. There is too a momentum to this 'sleepiness' so that some days I spend more time 'asleep' than 'awake'. When I heard about this site there was a strong curiosity and impulse to participate.

In Peace, dan

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Freddi
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Re: humble request for guide

Postby Freddi » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:32 am

Hello Dan, thank you for the description of your experience. Beautiful.
In October of '08 I was traveling and took up the book "A New Earth" because my wife had it with her
Eckhart is where this all started to unravel here too :-)
There wasn't a noticing of 'no me' In fact, as best I can remember, I still had the the thought of me, it was just a me free from any attachment to anything really.
What would a noticing of ‘no-me’ be like, I wonder? ;-)
The thought of me is free to roam around without anyone owning it, is that it?
My body and mind kept on doing everything as it always had, talking to my wife and daughter, enjoying the sights except that there was not suffering, not one bit, everything was just fine as it happened.
If there had never been anyone home, would the body and mind change direction on noticing this evidence?
Would you say that it was then noticed that the body and mind were/are working as if on automatic?
What happens now sometimes as thoughts get very busy is that I notice old mind patterns arising that take over. It feels like a kind of falling asleep, this identity with self, and a kind of separation that feels unkind and unreal.
Are these old thought patterns a problem? A problem for whom? Can they fly around like the thought of 'me' you spoke about earlier?
When you say they take over, they take over what?
There is too a momentum to this 'sleepiness' so that some days I spend more time 'asleep' than 'awake'.
OK, stop. Step right out of that think tank. Come to your senses, just for a moment, notice what is actually here, the vibrancy of THIS. See what is seen, hear what is heard, touch what is touched. Is there anything other than this? Yes? No?
Take a good look around, where do you see ‘some days’? In actual experience or in thought? If in thought, is it WHAT IS happening or is it WHAT IS NOT happening?
Can you see/hear/touch/taste an ‘I’ that spends more time asleep than awake?

Take your time with these questions, Dan. Stay around them. Report always what’s coming up from direct experience, not mind chatter, but then I'm guessing you already know that ;-)

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Treehouse
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Re: humble request for guide

Postby Treehouse » Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:30 am

Thank you for the questions Fred...they rang like a temple bell...clarity of experience
What would a noticing of ‘no-me’ be like, I wonder? ;-)
The thought of me is free to roam around without anyone owning it, is that it?
I suppose the thought of me is free to roam around. but there is no direct experience of the thought...

If there had never been anyone home, would the body and mind change direction on noticing this evidence?
Would you say that it was then noticed that the body and mind were/are working as if on automatic?
I would say the body and mind seem to do what they do. choice seems a thought pattern about other thoughts.
Are these old thought patterns a problem? A problem for whom? Can they fly around like the thought of 'me' you spoke about earlier?
I guess it is mind judging mind.... problem is a thought pattern that classifies thought patterns.... for whom? it seems there is no direct experience of who - he/she/it is only a thought pattern
When you say they take over, they take over what?
nothing really. thanks
There is too a momentum to this 'sleepiness' so that some days I spend more time 'asleep' than 'awake'.
OK, stop. Step right out of that think tank. Come to your senses, just for a moment, notice what is actually here, the vibrancy of THIS. See what is seen, hear what is heard, touch what is touched. Is there anything other than this? Yes? No?


This moment is - in stillness there seems to be a living of this
Take a good look around, where do you see ‘some days’? In actual experience or in thought? If in thought, is it WHAT IS happening or is it WHAT IS NOT happening?
Can you see/hear/touch/taste an ‘I’ that spends more time asleep than awake?
Thanks. 'some days' are in thought. I'm told neurons fire and thoughts are perceived. If consciousness is a sense, there is the noticing of thoughts happening in the moment just as there is the noticing of reflected light in the moment. they seem to arise and fall away...

I can't see, hear, touch or taste the 'I'

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Freddi
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Re: humble request for guide

Postby Freddi » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:37 pm

Hello Dan, thank you for your clear answers!
I suppose the thought of me is free to roam around. but there is no direct experience of the thought...
Yes, exactly, what actually is a thought? Do we have any proof of it? Does it even exist?
choice seems a thought pattern about other thoughts.
:-)
So, without anyone home, how do you see choices, decisions, free will, etc?
What happens, in reality, when we say ‘this is a choice’? How do things work? Give me a couple of your observations of what comes up, in real time.
I guess it is mind judging mind
Consider this for a moment: what is a mind, in actual experience? Is it any more than the current thought?
I'm told neurons fire and thoughts are perceived.
Interesting that you start your sentence with ‘I’m told’, that makes it second-hand knowledge...
Do you know for sure that you have neurons firing together?
If consciousness is a sense, there is the noticing of thoughts happening in the moment just as there is the noticing of reflected light in the moment.
What do you call consciousness, in actual experience? Is it something doing the noticing? Or is it just the 'noticing of this'?

Thank you!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Treehouse
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Re: humble request for guide

Postby Treehouse » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:30 pm

Hi Fred, thank you for pointing further.
Yes, exactly, what actually is a thought? Do we have any proof of it? Does it even exist?
thoughts seem the result of what brains do, like leaves the result of what trees do. No proof really, just a noticing in the moment removed from direct experience. any proof, it seems, is conceptual further removing it from direct experience.
So, without anyone home, how do you see choices, decisions, free will, etc?
What happens, in reality, when we say ‘this is a choice’? How do things work? Give me a couple of your observations of what comes up, in real time.
choice is taking credit where no credit is due. Piggy backing on life as it changes as it will while claiming "look what I did." e.g. the thought arises "should 'I' reply to Fred now or tonight?"; the thought arises "'I' will reply now."; the body sits at the computer and begins to type.; the thought arises "what a fine choice 'I' made."; a sensation arises in the gut; the thought arises "'I' am hungry."; The body rises and returns with yogurt; The thought arises "what a fine choice 'I' made."

Consider this for a moment: what is a mind, in actual experience? Is it any more than the current thought
the mind is no more than the current thought.
Interesting that you start your sentence with ‘I’m told’, that makes it second-hand knowledge...
Do you know for sure that you have neurons firing together?
No. "neurons", "firing", "together" all concepts foreign to direct experience.
What do you call consciousness, in actual experience? Is it something doing the noticing? Or is it just the 'noticing of this'?
Just the noticing of this.

thank you, Fred.

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Re: humble request for guide

Postby Freddi » Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:08 am

Hello Dan,
choice is taking credit where no credit is due. Piggy backing on life as it changes as it will while claiming "look what I did." e.g. the thought arises "should 'I' reply to Fred now or tonight?"; the thought arises "'I' will reply now."; the body sits at the computer and begins to type.; the thought arises "what a fine choice 'I' made."; a sensation arises in the gut; the thought arises "'I' am hungry."; The body rises and returns with yogurt; The thought arises "what a fine choice 'I' made."
Nice, thank you :-)
Just to dig a little further …
In your experience, you observe thoughts and you observe the movements of the body. Would you say that the thoughts make the choice? Do they cause the body to move? Or do they comment on a physical happening? In other words is there a cause and effect link that you can tangibly verify and prove? Let me know what you see.

Thank you!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Treehouse
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Re: humble request for guide

Postby Treehouse » Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:24 pm

Just to dig a little further …
In your experience, you observe thoughts and you observe the movements of the body. Would you say that the thoughts make the choice? Do they cause the body to move? Or do they comment on a physical happening? In other words is there a cause and effect link that you can tangibly verify and prove? Let me know what you see.
Hi Fred,

Thank you again for your effort, your kind words, and your firm pointers. having just met it feels at first like a hug from a stranger ... then a joining that is quite familiar and not a joining at all but maybe more a remembering.

I thought I had peeled the last layer on the 'choice/free will' onion but this morning another peeled away as I sat with my direct experience and couldn't find a regular predictable cause and effect between thought and physical movement. Sometimes thought arises and body follows and sometimes body moves and thought follows. Most of the time there is just body doing and brain making thoughts and there is no connection. Body washes body while brain thinks about scheduling - body washes dishes while brain produces thoughts of sexy wife. there is the direct experience of thought and of body and one often follows the other, even seems to cause the other. But there is no 'me' doing it.

Sometimes when I engage this process there is a sinking into present experience quite easily and there is a feeling of familiarity. Other times, sensations arise in the body, a tightening of the stomach and constriction of the diaphragm. Fear is arising, fear of loss or of confrontation - it's not quite clear. It feels old, whatever it is. But there is something being touched in this process as I make it intentional and direct. The form looks like.....an ego identifying with kind, calm, compassionate, non reactive Dan...this might be it? or at least part of it?...there is a fear of loss of this identity------------- my freedom from mind has been hijacked by mind disguised as freedom from mind! hah! :)

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Freddi
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Re: humble request for guide

Postby Freddi » Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:03 am

Hi Dan, thank you for your kind words, and especially for your willingness to look for yourself. It is really all that is needed.

Before we explore this fear that you mention in your second paragraph, there is this to clear up …
brain making thoughts (…) brain thinks (…) brain produces thoughts of sexy wife
Are you sure? Is this a provable fact, in your experience? How do you know?
Look at the current thought. Where does it come from? What created it? Where does it go?
Take a look and report on what you see, not what you think happens!

Thank you!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Treehouse
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Re: humble request for guide

Postby Treehouse » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:08 pm

Before we explore this fear that you mention in your second paragraph, there is this to clear up …
brain making thoughts (…) brain thinks (…) brain produces thoughts of sexy wife
Are you sure? Is this a provable fact, in your experience? How do you know?
Look at the current thought. Where does it come from? What created it? Where does it go?
Take a look and report on what you see, not what you think happens!
Hi Fred, thank you for this suggestion. Here is what happened - I was up early, it was still dark. I read your email and returned to bed. There were no sounds. Eyes closed, I rested in stillness and waited for thoughts. Simple thoughts arose, one at a time, slowly as if spontaneously created, as if an echo except they only 'sounded' once and then were gone. In this case they were all short phrases of words not images (though it was in part as if the words were being 'seen') or emotions (inner body sensations). The observing felt like mostly seeing, as if there could be a looking backward from the eyes or from the inside base of the skull. But it also felt a little like hearing in the moment the thought arose. There were long pauses between thoughts with just a feeling of curiosity.

So in direct experience, there was a noticing of spontaneous, instantaneous arising and disappearing of insubstantial sensations - like the whisping by of word shadows. Even though the sensations were present and gone instantaneously, there was a distinct, recognizable clarity/familiarity to the distinct symbols and they were sometimes followed by another round of symbols as if in conversation.

There is no saying where the 'thoughts' came from, what created them, or where they go. Observed was only sudden appearance/disappearance and sometimes a volley of other 'thoughts' that followed.

Thanks you. Dan

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Re: humble request for guide

Postby Freddi » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:31 pm

Thanks again, Dan, for your very detailed and enjoyable reply.

Now, back to your previous message, and this:
Other times, sensations arise in the body, a tightening of the stomach and constriction of the diaphragm. Fear is arising, fear of loss or of confrontation - it's not quite clear. It feels old, whatever it is.
Good to notice!
Can we invite this sensation of fear to this enquiry? Can we welcome it like an old relative at the door, give it a big hug and see what it wants to say?

Maybe reading the following statement will help to bring it up: What you think you are does not exist. There is no 'I' in real life, as in zero. There is no separate entity. Nothing. Just life flowing freely, on automatic.

If it comes up, surrender to this feeling of fear, don’t resist it, turn any resistance into curiosity, and give it your full attention.
Stay with the feeling, it is also WHAT IS happening, listen to it, what is it saying?
Is there anything behind it? Any other fear that can be identified? Is it protecting something?
What are the physical symptoms of this fear, its actual manifestations?
Make sure you let all the questions infuse for a while, and let me know what comes up.

Thank you.

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Treehouse
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Re: humble request for guide

Postby Treehouse » Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:57 pm

Other times, sensations arise in the body, a tightening of the stomach and constriction of the diaphragm. Fear is arising, fear of loss or of confrontation - it's not quite clear. It feels old, whatever it is.
Good to notice!
Can we invite this sensation of fear to this enquiry? Can we welcome it like an old relative at the door, give it a big hug and see what it wants to say?

Maybe reading the following statement will help to bring it up: What you think you are does not exist. There is no 'I' in real life, as in zero. There is no separate entity. Nothing. Just life flowing freely, on automatic.

If it comes up, surrender to this feeling of fear, don’t resist it, turn any resistance into curiosity, and give it your full attention.
Stay with the feeling, it is also WHAT IS happening, listen to it, what is it saying?
Is there anything behind it? Any other fear that can be identified? Is it protecting something?
What are the physical symptoms of this fear, its actual manifestations?
Make sure you let all the questions infuse for a while, and let me know what comes up.
Hi Fred, the fear does arise, it does accept the invitation to enquiry. "I'm doing my job" it says. Sitting with these physical sessions for some time, their is some pressure in the gut that constricts breathing. Not debilitating for the body but the brain labels it discomfort. Just an arising is all that is noticed, no direct experience of anything behind it. The sensations are there even now, coming and going slightly like the tide - with splatterings of thoughts each time the sensations splash down. Sometimes, like a whirlpool, there is an 'egoing' that happens, thoughts of I that pick up momentum with some power, the sensations increase .... and then arises again a noticing of the flow of WHAT IS and the sensations in the body decrease or disappear. These thoughts of 'I' come and go like the tide and the body seems to respond as it does, the sensations rising and falling....

The fear feels like fear of loss, maybe fear of annihilation? Noticing both a tendency to embrace the fear and a tendency to grasp for support...............labeling is happening........now awareness of thoughts doing what they do and awareness of the body sensations....the tide comes in and the tide goes out and this body moves on as it will, no 'I' required....

gratitude arising... :)

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Freddi
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Re: humble request for guide

Postby Freddi » Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:27 pm

Hello Dan,
the fear does arise, it does accept the invitation to enquiry. "I'm doing my job" it says
Can you feel gratitude for the fear? Can you thank it for its protection, when it next shows up?
Tell it it is doing a good job, but it is not required … ;-)

The fear feels like fear of loss, maybe fear of annihilation?
Consider this for a moment: what if there was absolutely nothing to lose (or to gain), and nothing that could be annihilated? Look at that possibility with feeling and let me know what comes up.

Thank you!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Treehouse
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Re: humble request for guide

Postby Treehouse » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:12 am

Hi Fred, thank you for sticking with me. gratitude, gratitude...
the fear does arise, it does accept the invitation to enquiry. "I'm doing my job" it says
Can you feel gratitude for the fear? Can you thank it for its protection, when it next shows up?
Tell it it is doing a good job, but it is not required … ;-)
Yes. I am able to do that. acceptance of it. noticing that it is part of the flow :)
The fear feels like fear of loss, maybe fear of annihilation?
Consider this for a moment: what if there was absolutely nothing to lose (or to gain), and nothing that could be annihilated? Look at that possibility with feeling and let me know what comes up.
I'm still sitting with this, noticing hesitation to look deeply. I'm going to sleep with it and wake up to it and look some more. There is nothing to be annihilated. There is no self.


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