Pleas could someone guide me

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Nina45
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Pleas could someone guide me

Postby Nina45 » Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:44 am

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
I am at a moment when I want to l see through the confusion.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
My background is Buddhism. I had experience of non-seperateness 15 years ago which has sustained.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?:
I hope for some clarity and loss of confusion.

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Re: Pleas could someone guide me

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:49 am

Hi Nina,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist in exploring the illusion of the separate self, though I can only point the way. You have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers. We will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no separate self. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:

If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Read this article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.) Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

Technical support:
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If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.
I had experience of non-seperateness 15 years ago which has sustained.
1) Could you please elaborate on how you experienced ‘non separateness’ and how it was sustained?

2) What does the word ‘I’ refer to?

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Pleas could someone guide me

Postby Nina45 » Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:09 pm

Hi Kay,

Thanks for answering my request.

I have been considering your questions.

1) The most intense experience I had was 15 years ago and this was a visual experience. I was reading a Buddhist text about dependant origination when my mind relaxed and I saw the flow of energy between all things in my environment - trees, bushes, plants, children playing in the road, animals were a continous flow of the same energy. This experience lasted for an afternoon and has had a lasting impact. If I relax my mind I can perceive the sameness between myself and and all beings, which triggers different feelings at different times (fear, contentment, sadness). I also have stong bodily experiences of energy (energy from my environment) which an happen at any time.

2) I refers to the person experiencing. In terms of watching a visual experience, I is quite rigid shell like, on the edge of what is happening like a viewer of a film. In terms of my experience of bodily energy, there is an I that seems to be fighting the enery much of the time - becoming tense, fearful of being overwhelmed. I have had a stong sense recently of rigid structures trying to protect something internal. I seem to be protecting something very young - a very young me who is able to play and enjoy. This very small being seems to be I. Everything else is is just defending it (genderless being).

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Re: Pleas could someone guide me

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:33 am

Hello Nina,

You are welcome and thank you for your responses.
1) The most intense experience I had was 15 years ago and this was a visual experience.
If I relax my mind I can perceive the sameness between myself and and all beings, which triggers different feelings at different times (fear, contentment, sadness). I also have stong bodily experiences of energy (energy from my environment) which an happen at any time.
Is there an expectation to getting back that special experience?

Is there an assumption that seeing through the separate self comes with an altered or different state of consciousness (or experience)?

What is the assumption, how seeing through the separate individual would look like or feel like?

What would be the difference?

How would you recognize it?

How would you know that this is it?

What are your expectations about liberation?

How would you change?

How would life change?

Please answer all the questions individually and highlight each of the questions with the quote function.


Warm regards
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Nina45
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Re: Pleas could someone guide me

Postby Nina45 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:12 pm

Hi Kay,

Thank you for the questions.

Is there an expectation to getting back that special experience?

Not anymore, no. I see the experience as limited because it was visual. It was as if my other senses were not involved. I see it as an indication that I was on the right path, though I seemed to loose my way afterwards. It was confirmation to me that there is no seperation, though there was still an I doing the perceiving.
Is there an assumption that seeing through the separate self comes with an altered or different state of consciousness (or experience)?
The experience I described was as a result of intense concentration with my mind. Today, as I questioned my sense of "I", I realised that my habit is to pin down a singular I. The singular moved, of course, from the pain in my hip to seeing a berry on a tree, to a flashing light on a car, to the ringing in my ears, until all my senses were alert and "cat like'. Then the truth was that "I" was in many locations and not in one. This was not an altered state of consciousness, though my awareness of my senses was hightened. I can see that an altered state of consciousness is a different kind of experience that may not be necessary.
What is the assumption, how seeing through the separate individual would look like or feel like?
I have an assumption that there would be a difference. Perhaps a greater relaxation, a looser hold on identity. For me there is a hope that I will experience less confusion in my relationship with the world and myself.
What would be the difference?
Life will continue in the same way. The difference will be in the way I relate to people and my environment. I have a sense that the way I see trees and animals may expand to myself and people. As the moment fear seems to be a barrier between myself and other people; with plant and animals I am able to fully be with them and recognise their beauty, energy, the diversity of elements that make them and their lack of fixed self.
How would you recognize it?
a lack of fear, other than perhaps my sense reflexes responding. An expansiveness and ability to be fully in the moment. Clarity.
How would you know that this is it?
I would feel different. I would feel a part of. I would be a part of the flow of energy. A drop in the ocean.
What are your expectations about liberation?
My expectation is to use energy well and to act with clarity, rather than confusion.
How would you change?
There would be a change is how I relate to others. This may be subtle; it may be about how I feel about others.
How would life change?
I would hope to live more in line with my experience. To fully understand and live with the impact of my actions.

Thank you Kay,

Best wishes,

Nina

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Re: Pleas could someone guide me

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:36 am

Hi Nina,

Thank you so much for using the quote function, it keeps the questions and answers clear.

This list of expectations is important, because every expectation is in the way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about a separate individual who could gain something in the future.

When you read my responses to your answers, I would like you to watch for any resistance that arises and to take note of the resistance and let me know what the resistance is and how it showed up.

Just as a warning :) My replies are quite confronting. They are about pointing out and questioning all the beliefs that are there about what seeing this would look like.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. Is there any resistance to any of it?
Is there an expectation to getting back that special experience?
Not anymore, no. I see the experience as limited because it was visual. It was as if my other senses were not involved. I see it as an indication that I was on the right path, though I seemed to loose my way afterwards. It was confirmation to me that there is no seperation, though there was still an I doing the perceiving.
It's very good if there is no expectation of getting back that special experience, since seeing what a separate individual REALLY IS, has NOTHING to do with any sort of special or non-special experience.
I see the experience as limited because it was visual. It was as if my other senses were not involved.
This has NOTHING to do with seeing through the separate entity.

Quite the contrary.
This is a STORY about an individual who could have special experiences.
This is a STORY about a separate individual whose experiences could be limited or not limited.
The experience I described was as a result of intense concentration with my mind.
This is based on the assumption that there is a separate individual who has a mind.
But actually there is neither a separate person (=individual), nor a mind.
This was not an altered state of consciousness, though my awareness of my senses was hightened. I can see that an altered state of consciousness is a different kind of experience that may not be necessary.
What if that doesn't matter the slightest - if there is or isn't any kind of altered or normal state of consciousness?

The separate individual has never ever been there. So if it hasn't been there in the first place then, seeing it for what it is (just an idea) wouldn't change a thing.

There isn't any sort of change in experience.
Since there has never ever been an experience of a separate individual in the first place.
So it has nothing has to do with any state of consciousness, since there is no separate person to have that state.
I have an assumption that there would be a difference. Perhaps a greater relaxation, a looser hold on identity.
SEEMING changes might or might not happen.
But it doesn't matter, if it's clear that nothing is having those SEEMING changes.

Looser hold on identity? In order for that to happen, at first, there has to be a 'thing', a person who has an identity. And secondly, that seeming person has to have control over that seeming identity.

And this is exactly what we will look at later...
If there is REALLY a person, or just a seeming one.
If there is REALLY a control, or just a seeming one.
If there is REALLY an identity, or just a seeming one.
For me there is a hope that I will experience less confusion in my relationship with the world and myself.
Ohh so you are saying that there are more than one of you? :)

So there is supposedly:
1. you, who could have a relationship ("I will experience less confusion in my relationship with...")
2. with the other you ("with the world and myself")?

What if there is no two, you and a world?
What if there is no relationship at all?
How would you recognize it?
a lack of fear, other than perhaps my sense reflexes responding. An expansiveness and ability to be fully in the moment.
This is a HUGE expectation. If seeing through the separate individual is measured by the lack of fear then this whole investigation is doomed to failure.

The SEEMING fear might lessen or not. But either way, the SEEMING presence or lack of fear has nothing to do with seeing what the separate self really is.
How would you know that this is it?
I would feel different. I would feel a part of. I would be a part of the flow of energy. A drop in the ocean.
In order to say that I could be the part of something, first
(1) there has to be a separate 'I', and
(2) a separate something that I could be the part of.

You, as a separate person would never ever be the part of anything. Since there has never ever been a separate person. Something that has never ever been there in the first place, cannot be part of anything.
I would be a part of the flow of energy.
If there is no separation how could anything be part of anything else?

What if there is no such thing as 'a flow of energy' other than an idea?

This expectation can also be a hindrance to see what the separate person really is.
My expectation is to use energy well and to act with clarity, rather than confusion
.

The same just as above.

"To act with clarity" - implies a separate person who could ACT with clarity or confusion.
There would be a change is how I relate to others. This may be subtle; it may be about how I feel about others.
What if those SEEMING feelings are not owned by anything?
What if those SEEMING feelings are not belonging to anything?
I would hope to live more in line with my experience.
This sentence assumes that there are two:

1. you
2. and experience

But there is no two.
To fully understand and live with the impact of my actions.
This sentence assumes that there is a separate person who could or could not understand things.
It assumes that there is a seeming separate individual who has actions, and above all, control over her actions.

But what if none of these are really the case?

Here is a list what seeing through the separate individual is NOT about:

This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This isn’t a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not a self-improvement program.

Please read this post several times, and watch out for any kind of resistance.

Kind regards
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Pleas could someone guide me

Postby Nina45 » Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:52 pm

Thank you for your reply Kay. I did find it challenging at first but things have changed. I can see through the replies I made yesterday.
I go through all the expectations one-by-one. Is there any resistance to any of it?

Is there an expectation to getting back that special experience?
Not anymore, no. I see the experience as limited because it was visual. It was as if my other senses were not involved. I see it as an indication that I was on the right path, though I seemed to loose my way afterwards. It was confirmation to me that there is no seperation, though there was still an I doing the perceiving.
It's very good if there is no expectation of getting back that special experience, since seeing what a separate individual REALLY IS, has NOTHING to do with any sort of special or non-special experience.
I see the experience as limited because it was visual. It was as if my other senses were not involved.
This has NOTHING to do with seeing through the separate entity.

Quite the contrary.
This is a STORY about an individual who could have special experiences.
This is a STORY about a separate individual whose experiences could be limited or not limited.
Story seems to be a very important word. I can see that my meomory of my experience is just a story and that in what I said there was an expectation of further story telling about "spiritual experience". "I" is always already in a story, I understand that intellectually. "I" is constantly creating new stories. If I sit and listen there is a critical voice about the act of listening that is creating a story. Benhind the dull critical voice is another voice saying that the critical voice is dull. Behind that there is nothing.
The experience I described was as a result of intense concentration with my mind.

This is based on the assumption that there is a separate individual who has a mind.
But actually there is neither a separate person (=individual), nor a mind.
I am resistant to the idea that there is no mind. Interesting that the non-seperate person I accept but no mind I have resistence to.
This was not an altered state of consciousness, though my awareness of my senses was hightened. I can see that an altered state of consciousness is a different kind of experience that may not be necessary.

What if that doesn't matter the slightest - if there is or isn't any kind of altered or normal state of consciousness?

The separate individual has never ever been there. So if it hasn't been there in the first place then, seeing it for what it is (just an idea) wouldn't change a thing.

There isn't any sort of change in experience.
Since there has never ever been an experience of a separate individual in the first place.
So it has nothing has to do with any state of consciousness, since there is no separate person to have that state.
It is a relief that this is about just seeing and no about accessing a mystical state.
I have a glimpse of something behind the something that thinks it in control. Just a glimpse.
I have an assumption that there would be a difference. Perhaps a greater relaxation, a looser hold on identity.
SEEMING changes might or might not happen.
But it doesn't matter, if it's clear that nothing is having those SEEMING changes.

Looser hold on identity? In order for that to happen, at first, there has to be a 'thing', a person who has an identity. And secondly, that seeming person has to have control over that seeming identity.

And this is exactly what we will look at later...
If there is REALLY a person, or just a seeming one.
If there is REALLY a control, or just a seeming one.
If there is REALLY an identity, or just a seeming one.
Identity seems to be a nonsense word. I have a sense of a very young someone (in my past) who would have liked a certain identity but that was never achieved. Hence my confusion. There were always expectations and they have never been met. Because it has never been my choice. It has never been in my control. Am I still clinging to the essence of a person? I am clinging to something.
For me there is a hope that I will experience less confusion in my relationship with the world and myself.

Ohh so you are saying that there are more than one of you? :)

So there is supposedly:
1. you, who could have a relationship ("I will experience less confusion in my relationship with...")
2. with the other you ("with the world and myself")?

What if there is no two, you and a world?
What if there is no relationship at all?
There is just confusion. If there isn't one, there can't be two. I want to free my mind from confusion. But there is no-one in control of my mind.
How would you recognize it?
a lack of fear, other than perhaps my sense reflexes responding. An expansiveness and ability to be fully in the moment.
This is a HUGE expectation. If seeing through the separate individual is measured by the lack of fear then this whole investigation is doomed to failure.

The SEEMING fear might lessen or not. But either way, the SEEMING presence or lack of fear has nothing to do with seeing what the separate self really is.
Lack of fear is probably another story I've heard. There a glimpse of just feeling, as there is a glimpse of just hearing.
How would you know that this is it?
I would feel different. I would feel a part of. I would be a part of the flow of energy. A drop in the ocean.
In order to say that I could be the part of something, first
(1) there has to be a separate 'I', and
(2) a separate something that I could be the part of.

You, as a separate person would never ever be the part of anything. Since there has never ever been a separate person. Something that has never ever been there in the first place, cannot be part of anything.
There is resistence here. So being part of something, energy itself, is a story. A concept. Ok. So the seeming mind is where my attention is. The pain in my body is the whole of my mind in one moment and the dripping tap is the whole of my mind in another moment. But there is no mind just the pain and the dripping tap. The dogs are breathing, and where am I? They are just breathing. And then my mind starts another story.
I would be a part of the flow of energy.

If there is no separation how could anything be part of anything else?

What if there is no such thing as 'a flow of energy' other than an idea?

This expectation can also be a hindrance to see what the separate person really is.
My expectation is to use energy well and to act with clarity, rather than confusion
.
The same just as above.
Ok, I am letting go of all expectations. I want to see what this "I" is that has been built and to have freedom from its constraints.
"To act with clarity" - implies a separate person who could ACT with clarity or confusion.
There would be a change is how I relate to others. This may be subtle; it may be about how I feel about others.
What if those SEEMING feelings are not owned by anything?
What if those SEEMING feelings are not belonging to anything?
No, there are just feelings. I have a sense of that.
I would hope to live more in line with my experience.
This sentence assumes that there are two:

1. you
2. and experience

But there is no two.
To fully understand and live with the impact of my actions.

This sentence assumes that there is a separate person who could or could not understand things.
It assumes that there is a seeming separate individual who has actions, and above all, control over her actions.

But what if none of these are really the case?
No, both statements seem like nonsense today. I don't know what they mean. A story about meaning.
Here is a list what seeing through the separate individual is NOT about:

This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This isn’t a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not a self-improvement program.

Please read this post several times, and watch out for any kind of resistance.
I have read this several times and reflected. The resistance I have to the list about is "something special". I am clinging to "something special". I am relieved to hear that this is not a trick of the mind; I can stop my mind doing tricks. My mind likes doing tricks. Perhaps this is why I have resistance around no-mind.

Thanks Kay.

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Re: Pleas could someone guide me

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:30 am

Hi Nina,

Thank you for your honesty and for your willingness to look at the resistance.
I am resistant to the idea that there is no mind. Interesting that the non-seperate person I accept but no mind I have resistence to.
Resistance is just a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. It highlights that there is a story there about pain or negative consequences to this investigation.

What I’d like you to do is to investigate this resistance. Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.

Ask the resistance as if it were some kind of entity:
What do you want to protect me from?
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the separate individual is seen through?

Observe what images and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to resist.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the resistance?
There is just confusion. If there isn't one, there can't be two. I want to free my mind from confusion. But there is no-one in control of my mind.
That’s right, “there is no-one in control” of your “mind” because there is no mind; and there never has been a separate individual who has a mind that has had control of anything ever.
You, as a separate person would never ever be the part of anything. Since there has never ever been a separate person. Something that has never ever been there in the first place, cannot be part of anything.
There is resistence here. So being part of something, energy itself, is a story. A concept. Ok. So the seeming mind is where my attention is. The pain in my body is the whole of my mind in one moment and the dripping tap is the whole of my mind in another moment. But there is no mind just the pain and the dripping tap. The dogs are breathing, and where am I? They are just breathing. And then my mind starts another story.
Yes, there is no mind, just the sensation labelled ‘pain’ and the sound which is labelled ‘dripping tap’. Everything else is just a story, including the story that says “and then my mind starts another story”.
I have read this several times and reflected. The resistance I have to the list about is "something special". I am clinging to "something special". I am relieved to hear that this is not a trick of the mind; I can stop my mind doing tricks. My mind likes doing tricks. Perhaps this is why I have resistance around no-mind.
You must be “something special” if you can “stop your mind from doing tricks”. First you would have to be able to find that “separate individual” plus the “mind” (once again two).

There is no separate individual who can stop anything, control anything, do anything or think anything let alone stop “their mind” doing tricks since there is no separate individual with or without a ‘mind’!

Warm regards
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Pleas could someone guide me

Postby Nina45 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:10 am

Hi Kay,

Thank you very much for you time with this.
Resistance is just a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. It highlights that there is a story there about pain or negative consequences to this investigation.

What I’d like you to do is to investigate this resistance. Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.

Ask the resistance as if it were some kind of entity:
What do you want to protect me from?
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the separate individual is seen through?

Observe what images and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to resist.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the resistance?
The first thing I noticed was a lot of fixing and solving and hunting down of my mind. The mind seemed to want to play hide and seek. Trying to just sit with it was very difficult and eventually I became very tired and was in a lot of physical pain. Eventually, after some sleep, I was able to look at the layers of resistance that I had been chasing,
There are stories about drive, being in control of destiny, determination, strength. These lead to stories about being something special and fear of not being something special. At the back of the pile was fear and behind the fear was sensation. Bodily experience which is not attached to a concept. although the sensation gives rise to waves of what I recognise as fear - which seems to be just something reacting in a familiar muscle.
You must be “something special” if you can “stop your mind from doing tricks”. First you would have to be able to find that “separate individual” plus the “mind” (once again two).

There is no separate individual who can stop anything, control anything, do anything or think anything let alone stop “their mind” doing tricks since there is no separate individual with or without a ‘mind’!
Yes, I am exhausted with chasing my mind. What is chasing what? A sensation chasing another sensation. And a commentator commenting and a projectionist playing the odd reel of film.

Thanks Kay. I look forward to your next guidance.

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Re: Pleas could someone guide me

Postby Nina45 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:53 am

Disappointment! Protection against disappointment.

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Re: Pleas could someone guide me

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:15 am

Hi Nina,
Thank you very much for you time with this.
You are most welcome :)
The first thing I noticed was a lot of fixing and solving and hunting down of my mind. The mind seemed to want to play hide and seek.
Yes, fixing, solving and hunting down the “mind” would be tiring since there is no ‘mind’ to find.
There are stories about drive, being in control of destiny, determination, strength. These lead to stories about being something special and fear of not being something special.
Nice looking to see that they are only STORIES as there is nothing that has drive, is in control of destiny, has determination or strength and there is nothing and no one that is or has something special.
At the back of the pile was fear and behind the fear was sensation. Bodily experience which is not attached to a concept. although the sensation gives rise to waves of what I recognise as fear - which seems to be just something reacting in a familiar muscle.
Nice find! Behind the ‘resistance’ is ‘fear’ and the ‘fear’ seems to be associated with bodily sensations. In actual experience (AE) there is only sensation + the label ‘fear’ + image labelled ‘body’.

This seeming fear is ‘fear’ of losing the ‘identity of self’ which is only a concept and has never been a reality.
Yes, I am exhausted with chasing my mind. What is chasing what? A sensation chasing another sensation. And a commentator commenting and a projectionist playing the odd reel of film.
I wonder what a mind would look like and how would you know when you have caught it? Are you truly exhausted with chasing “your mind”?

It’s easier to accept the idea of non-separate person because there is an idea that the non-separate person is a fallacy and there is a desire to be ‘enlightened’ which means somehow no longer being that separate person. Underneath that desire there is fear, because if you are not a separate person; if you lose that ‘identity’ then what are you? So the identity of separate person is held onto by just changing allegiance to the ‘mind’ which is just another word for ‘separate person’.

Are you ready to question all of these beliefs?

Warm regards
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Nina45
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Re: Pleas could someone guide me

Postby Nina45 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:35 pm

Hi Kay,

The image of me hunting down a mind is very funny! It has made me giggle a lot today.
I wonder what a mind would look like and how would you know when you have caught it? Are you truly exhausted with chasing “your mind”?

It’s easier to accept the idea of non-separate person because there is an idea that the non-separate person is a fallacy and there is a desire to be ‘enlightened’ which means somehow no longer being that separate person. Underneath that desire there is fear, because if you are not a separate person; if you lose that ‘identity’ then what are you? So the identity of separate person is held onto by just changing allegiance to the ‘mind’ which is just another word for ‘separate person’.

Are you ready to question all of these beliefs?
I am ready Kay, yes. I have found other stories today; fear of disappointment and the disappointment of not being recognised. Disappointment is clearly completely not there - an illusion of multiple sensations and concepts. An not being recognised? what is there to recognize? And who would be doing the recognizing? No wonder expectation brings about disappointment.
I feel absolutely ready.

Thanks Kay - give me a push.

Very warm regards

Nina


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Re: Pleas could someone guide me

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:51 am

Hi Nina,
The image of me hunting down a mind is very funny! It has made me giggle a lot today.
Haha…yes. I too had a bit of a giggle at that idea! :)
I have found other stories today; fear of disappointment and the disappointment of not being recognised. Disappointment is clearly completely not there - an illusion of multiple sensations and concepts. An not being recognised? what is there to recognize? And who would be doing the recognizing?
Exactly. What is there to recognise, and who would be doing the recognising? These things we will look at a little later on. For now we will look at thoughts.

The word ‘disappointment’ itself is the actual experience (AE) of a label/thought and is 'real', but the content (what the word means) is a story and is not ‘real’.

The sensation that SEEMS to be associated with ‘disappointment’ is the AE of sensation (and is 'real') but is not the actual experience of ‘disappointment’. The story of being disappointed or of being a disappointment is just that….a STORY (content).

Here is an exercise I would like for you to do.

Sit quietly and pay close attention to thoughts for 30 minutes and notice thoughts.

- Where do thoughts come from?
- Where are they going?
- Can a thought be stopped in the middle?
- Is it possible to predict what will be the next thought?
- Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
- Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?
- It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ and that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
- Is it possible to control any thoughts?

Continue to watch your thoughts throughout the day.

Please answer all questions individually.

Warm regards
Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Nina45
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Re: Pleas could someone guide me

Postby Nina45 » Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:30 pm

Hi Kay,

Thank you for your response. This is a very interesting investigation!

The word ‘disappointment’ itself is the actual experience (AE) of a label/thought and is 'real', but the content (what the word means) is a story and is not ‘real’.

The sensation that SEEMS to be associated with ‘disappointment’ is the AE of sensation (and is 'real') but is not the actual experience of ‘disappointment’. The story of being disappointed or of being a disappointment is just that….a STORY (content).

Yes - disappointment is very interesting. It seems to be about layers of story which trigger different AE of sensation in the (seeming) body. These sensations are dispersed and collected under label of disappointment. Like different points on a spiders web, joined together by thread to make a story.
Here is an exercise I would like for you to do.

Sit quietly and pay close attention to thoughts for 30 minutes and notice thoughts.

- Where do thoughts come from?
The first problem was deciding what a though was. Is it a visual image? Is in the commentary? Is it the conversationalist? Is it the response to the pain in my back? Is it the response to the sounds around me? Is it memory? Is it the sensation in response to memory? The more I sat, the more my sense of confusion. I just had the sense of neurons firing. Random stuff exploding and reacting. Occasionally, there was a muscle jolt when a memory of something I needed to do arose and the planner started to work out a plan. I noticed the sensations arise - the cluster of sensations grouped under "anxiety" until a satisfactory plan has been reached.
Where do thoughts come from? I have no idea. Triggered in response to experience. Another spiders web of reactions.
- Where are they going?
They seem to dissolve. A lot of phenomena seen to dissolve as I try to pin them down. Plans (future actions, seem to sit at various locations in the body, as if waiting for action, waiting to be triggered). The conversationalist grabs hold of some of them and has a discussion. Until the next neuron fires and the last thought fades or dissolves.
- Can a thought be stopped in the middle?
I am not sure what a thought is. The conservationist can be stopped when another story arises about needing to be mindful and in the present.)
- Is it possible to predict what will be the next thought?
Absolutely not
- Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
No. There seems to be some choice about the story that can be constructed around it. But only from a new thought that arises involuntarily.
- Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?
No - because they seem to explode into being. There seems to be a choice about the conversation to have with it - the story to create. Though the new story springs involuntarily.

-
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ and that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
The story connects them. The story connects the thoughts. The story is the spiders web that sticks them together. (the spiders web being another story to make sense of the story).

-
Is it possible to control any thoughts?
No. The arising of thoughts is not possible to control. The story/ conversation/ commentary can be different. But how to change the story is another thought that arises involuntarily in response to the thought.
Continue to watch your thoughts throughout the day.
I will continue to watch.

Thanks Kay.

Best from me

Nina

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Re: Pleas could someone guide me

Postby Nina45 » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:56 pm

This is my second reply, after further investigation.

Thought seems to be memory. Memory seems to by fired by bodily sensation. Stories about the future give rise to sensations which are associated with anxiety. It all seems to be memory.


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