Readynow

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Joan
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Readynow

Postby Joan » Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:05 am

The need to end the search.
Recommended by a friend.
40 years of meditation, more recently self-enquiry, mostly Rupert Spira & Scott Kiloby.
A strong focus & honesty, support & freedom from a belief in separation.

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KevinD
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Re: Readynow

Postby KevinD » Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:10 am

HI Joan,

I would gladly be your guide, if that's okay with you.

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realization that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Okay, let's get down to business.
A few preliminaries to get out of the way first.
  • You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!"
  • I am not your teacher, all I can do is point, you look, until clear seeing happens.
  • In general, I will ask questions, you look deeply and honestly, and respond.
  • Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.
  • Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers, and stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
  • Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
  • Please learn to use the quote function; See these instructions

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too.
For the sake of your success, I ask that you be 100 per cent honest. If you can manage that, this process will be much more efficient.

For ease of seeing, my questions will appear in bold text.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin.

What are your expectations for this process?
How will it change you?
How will this feel?


You can press 'subscribe to this topic in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive an email every time I post here.
"Don't ask the mind to confirm what is beyond the mind. Direct experience is the only valid confirmation."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj

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pamroux
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Re: Readynow

Postby pamroux » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:53 am

Hi Kevin,
Thank you, I really appreciate your help/pointing.
I sent you an e-mail prior to finding the above confirmation.

I expect to spend much more time than ever before deeply investigating the truth of who I am.
I hope & almost pray to clearly see that I as a separate self doesn't exist. I can't truly say I expect that.

I think it will free me from this limited identification as the bodymind.
I don't expect bliss or perfection. I think I will see life & myself with less attachment.
I think it will release me from the tension of what is left of the seeking.
I imagine my life & work will continue pretty much as before but I am not sure.

I believe it will feel spacious, relaxed, open-hearted.
I have a fantasy that I shall weep with relief (after so many years) of delusion & attempts at finding truth.

Just to let you know that I did some of the direct looking with a friend who is a LU guide but we did it casually, not on the forum & not daily.

I look forward to hearing from you.

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KevinD
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Re: Readynow

Postby KevinD » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:08 am

Hi Joan,

Sorry, I’m a bit late in getting back to you.
I’m on holidays with my kids, so that threw me off a bit.
I’ll be back on schedule with responding to you every day.
I think it will free me from this limited identification as the bodymind.
I don't expect bliss or perfection. I think I will see life & myself with less attachment.
I think it will release me from the tension of what is left of the seeking.
I imagine my life & work will continue pretty much as before but I am not sure.
I believe it will feel spacious, relaxed, open-hearted.
I have a fantasy that I shall weep with relief (after so many years) of delusion & attempts at finding truth.
Those all seem like reasonable expectations.
However, I’m going to ask you to drop them all. Every last one of them.
Expectations can be a huge impediment to what we’re trying to achieve here.
So, as realistic as your expectations may seem to you, I’m going ask you to drop them.
Truth is, there are no guarantees any of them will occur. It’s different for everyone.

Can you do that?
Can you drop any preconceived idea of what will occur?

Just to let you know that I did some of the direct looking with a friend who is a LU guide but we did it casually, not on the forum & not daily.
That’s fine, it probably gave you a flavour of what we’re trying to attempt here.

Let’s take a look at the relationship with the self.

What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be?
When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience? Please describe in detail – does it have a shape? A size? A quality?


Good to be under way, Joan.
Best,
Kevin
"Don't ask the mind to confirm what is beyond the mind. Direct experience is the only valid confirmation."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj

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pamroux
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Re: Readynow

Postby pamroux » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:02 am

Hi Kevin

Enjoy your holidays & much appreciation for taking this time.

"Can you do that?
Can you drop any preconceived idea of what will occur?"

Whoo, that thought of no expectations feels big & a bit scary & freeing.
Like falling into an empty space.
The thought comes - well then why would I do it? which takes me into who is this I?
There is something fairly strong in the body that is evoked from pondering the question.
I am aware I'm also moving into describing sensation experience & wonder if that is correct.
Back to the ? Can I drop any preconceived ideas.
I shall try, at the moment I am aware that they are just words & images & I shall not indulge them.
Again who is this I, dropping anything.

What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be?
When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience? Please describe in detail – does it have a shape? A size? A quality?

There is no me - a bit disappointing after all the focus & self-improvement , also laughable, hysterically funny.
A great sense of freedom & excitement. A life of new possibilities, a great longing.

I refers to a sense of decision making, a separate will, a program on automatic that know what it wants & acts to get it. In my de (direct experience) now, I is not my body though I keep regressing to assuming I am my body even though whenever I look I see my body is in me as awareness. I is not my thoughts or sensations. It is not a shape or colour, it is imagined - how? No it is actually a sensation of contraction deep in the body.
I hope this is not rambling or stream of consciousness.
I cannot find an I in my de now, just awareness and an empty sensation which is just a sensation.
But I still believe in an I, how do I know, it is a memory and a belief, a subtle feeling & a repetitive pattern of reactions to life's stimuli.

A technical ?, do I press Submit or Post Reply.
Also I see your ?'s are not highlighted in my response.

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KevinD
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Re: Readynow

Postby KevinD » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:20 pm

Thanks Joan,


That’s a very complete and honest response.
Whoo, that thought of no expectations feels big & a bit scary & freeing.
Like falling into an empty space.
Yep. It can feel like a loss of support.

But when you think about it, what is really there to support?

The thought comes - well then why would I do it? which takes me into who is this I?
What is it that wants something “in this for me?”

There is no me - a bit disappointing after all the focus & self-improvement , also laughable, hysterically funny.
A great sense of freedom & excitement. A life of new possibilities, a great longing.
Perfect.
I like how you are accessing direct experience for these answers. They seem very real.

No it is actually a sensation of contraction deep in the body.
I love this sentence. Beautiful.

A technical ?, do I press Submit or Post Reply.
Firstly, I use a word program to write my answers. Web pages can be unreliable and it’s easy to lose your work.
Then click on reply to answer.
Paste in your response, then click on preview to see how it will look, or to do any formatting (I’ll get to that below). Once you like it, click submit.
Also I see your ?'s are not highlighted in my response.
I think you’re talking about the quote function.
When you click reply and paste in your answer, please highlight my questions and click quote at the top.
More detailed instructions are at this link: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Best,
Kevin
"Don't ask the mind to confirm what is beyond the mind. Direct experience is the only valid confirmation."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj

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pamroux
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Re: Readynow

Postby pamroux » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:14 am

What I is there to support & what support exists?
I am understanding this in 2 ways

The I that I imagine needs support is a cluster of memories, sensations, reactions & thoughts.
She feels real & can be hurt. She has power over me, so to speak. I can lose the truth of who I am ie. awareness, when she is strong. I feel I'm sliding into concepts so back to de. In this moment she doesn't exist except as a thought & mild sensation.
What is really there to support as in externally is a concept of the world as good vs bad and also an inside vs outside but that belief system still operates albeit less strongly.

The I that I imagine needs support is a cluster of memories, sensations, reactions & thoughts.
She feels real & can be hurt. She has power over me, so to speak. I can lose the truth of who I am ie. awareness, when she is strong. I feel I'm sliding into concepts so back to de. In this moment she doesn't exist except as a thought & mild sensation.
What is really there to support as in externally, is a concept of the world as good vs bad and also an inside vs outside but that belief system still operates albeit less strongly.

Support is a very relevant concept for me & seeing it as only a concept destroys that world. I have a glimmer of that & it feels huge. I see that my separate self is made of 2 fabrics; freedom & support, destroy them & The I cannot be.
What is it that wants something “in this for me?”

Desire is strong in this system. What does that mean?
An automatic push & drive of energy forward, it is directional.
A collection of memories, images & words, instinctual physical energy wanting to survive, a belief that there is a separate me. A physical agitation, restlessness.
In my de now the it that wants something doesn't exist as an entity, it's just a collection of an experience.

I'll stay with this ? through the day.

Thank you

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pamroux
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Re: Readynow

Postby pamroux » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:22 am

[/quWhat I is there to support & what support exists?
ote]

Apologies for my technical limitations.

After more looking the I looking for support & to support does not exist as an entity but does exist as repeating patterns of behaviour of this bodymind which I still assume I am.
The I that wants something is a pressure of energy/sensation in the body velcroed to images & words.

The ?'s cannot be answered by the mind & point to the Nirsagadatta quote.

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pamroux
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Re: Readynow

Postby pamroux » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:14 pm

But when you think about it, what is really there to support?[quote][/quote]

I see my mind changed your words & inserted an I - interesting
Words create worlds

Support now is seen as a concept, perhaps everything is supporting everything all the time from a bigger perspective,
or support to thrive for the relative can be seen existing or not but that does not have to include an I.
It is just happening & I have no control because I don't exist, the last 3 words are not my reality yet.

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KevinD
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Re: Readynow

Postby KevinD » Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:19 am

Sorry, I initially called you Joan, which was the name under the original post.
My bad.
Your user name is pamroux, is that how you would like to be referred?


On to the important questions:
I feel I'm sliding into concepts so back to de. In this moment she doesn't exist except as a thought & mild sensation.
What is really there to support as in externally is a concept of the world as good vs bad and also an inside vs outside but that belief system still operates albeit less strongly.
Nice catch.
And a beautifully answered question.
Thanks for both.
After more looking the I looking for support & to support does not exist as an entity but does exist as repeating patterns of behaviour of this bodymind which I still assume I am.
Again, great catch and good answer.

Let’s take a look at you as the experiencer.
  • In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?
  • Is there a seer separate from the seen?
  • Is there a hearer that hears?
Nice work, Pamroux.
Keep at it,

Kevin
"Don't ask the mind to confirm what is beyond the mind. Direct experience is the only valid confirmation."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj

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pamroux
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Re: Readynow

Postby pamroux » Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:47 pm

In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?
Is there a seer separate from the seen?
Is there a hearer that hears?
I shall start with the easiest
Is there a hearer that hears? no it is assumed, hearing is happening.

Is there a seer separate from the seen? No seer, seeing & seen are one process/happening
This is my de when I look but the assumption of separation seems to take over, habit? when I don't look.
Judgement reinforces the assumption, my preferences, dislikes etc.
The mind regains control & seems to run the show. How do I stay with de? Keep looking?
In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?
This is tough & seems to cut to the heart of things, not really, not truthfully but this assumed imposter who vanishes when I look, seems to slink in when I don't look.

Joan is my second name, it is fine to call me that, it activates less of a separate self at this point.

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KevinD
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Re: Readynow

Postby KevinD » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:36 am

Hi Joan,

I see you're giving full effort using the quote function.
Please visit this link for more detailed explanation of how it works.
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
Is there a hearer that hears? no it is assumed, hearing is happening.
Perfect.
Is there a seer separate from the seen? No seer, seeing & seen are one process/happening
This is my de when I look but the assumption of separation seems to take over, habit? when I don't look.
This is part of our exercise here, is to stay in DE.
Like meditation, thoughts will distract. The practice simply to bring it back.
It's similar to what we're doing here.
This is tough & seems to cut to the heart of things, not really, not truthfully but this assumed imposter who vanishes when I look, seems to slink in when I don't look.
Bring yourself back to DE and look again

Now let's take a look at I as the doer, or the controller.
Here is an interesting exercise on control.
Take a look at this video first (just the delivery, the Q and A is interesting, but not critical.
http://youtu.be/ih6f-0T2Ow0


Select one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air (or don't).
Examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…
  • What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?
  • Can a controlling 'I' be located?
  • What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?
  • Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?
  • How is decision made?
[/b]
Nice work so far Joan.
Keep it up,
Kevin
"Don't ask the mind to confirm what is beyond the mind. Direct experience is the only valid confirmation."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj

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pamroux
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Re: Readynow

Postby pamroux » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:21 pm

Hi Kevin

Thanks so much for your appreciation & humor.

I need to tell you I am on holiday in Greece & am presently under the stars in a cafe using their internet, limited battery & tomorrow go to an island without my computer. I return to Athens on Monday evening so will post again then. It is now Saturday night. Your questions & the inquiry will travel with me.

Believe it or not I have read that quote function several times , please don't disqualify me because of such gross ineptitude, when back in South Africa I shall get help if I am still messing up.

The fountains are too loud to hear the video, I did try, so that will also need to wait.
Bring yourself back to DE and look again
Thanks for the certainty & clarity, this is not small it is a 24/7 commitment or that is how it feels now. Actually too big for an imagined self, who could do this except for awareness. Sorry philosophizing not de. I'm posting now in case I lose it & will continue.

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pamroux
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Re: Readynow

Postby pamroux » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:42 pm

Select one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air (or don't).
Examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…
What is this 'I' that is controlling the arm?
Can a controlling 'I' be located?
What is this 'I' that is choosing which arm to raise?
Can you find an 'I' that is doing the choosing?
How is decision made?
The I that is controlling the arm is a concept eg. my mind. In my de I cannot find a chooser or controller.
Decision seems to happen. As I write this I wonder who is thinking, where is the thinker? is it all just happening?
I know that I do not choose my thoughts but they do follow a pattern & certain patterns resonate with this bodymind. The I seems to be part of a system, a complex web of "internal & external" influences.
Right now where is the I that is deciding anything? The mind throws up the word trust & then doubt & we are out of de.
I can't find an I in de that is choosing or deciding. As I type this it feels that it is a flow just happening by no-one to no-one.
Physical tension seems to organically decide certain movements as opposed to an I.

Thank you!

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KevinD
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Re: Readynow

Postby KevinD » Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:52 pm

Hi Joan,

Excellent answers.
Great job stayin in DE.

Let's have a look at what is doing the thinking.

Are you the thinker of thoughts?

Can you think and choose a thought?

Can you stop a thought midstream?

Are you able to resist thinking about a pink rabbit, now that I've said it?


Again, nice work,

Kevin
"Don't ask the mind to confirm what is beyond the mind. Direct experience is the only valid confirmation."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj


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