Self not? "I" think so!

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maxwill
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Self not? "I" think so!

Postby maxwill » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:58 pm

Hi,
The name is Will, 20 years old from Massachusetts, US. Meditating on awareness and releasing of thoughts has brought relief of suffering pretty consistently, but fades when I'm not actively practicing. The study of Buddhism has been an interest and seems to have relieved some suffering, but no enlightenment, only transient experiences... I became interested in Liberation Unleashed not too long ago, and within a couple weeks, it has been changing "my" life. I used to see "I" as a solid concept, unbreakable, "me". Now "I" think otherwise. Will would like some guidance on breaking down this self (that never existed), and would greatly appreciate help. Thank you!!! With love,

a body

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Petrus
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Re: Self not? "I" think so!

Postby Petrus » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:14 pm

Hi Will,

If will be happy to be your guide.

If you see this I never existed, then what exactly you want to break down?

Petrus

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maxwill
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Re: Self not? "I" think so!

Postby maxwill » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:36 pm

Thank you so much for taking the time to be of help! Intellectually I understand that there is nothing to be broken down, that something to be broken down is an illusion. I read Gateless Gatecrashers posted on this site, which I found changed the way I think about the "I" in the thought process. Nonetheless, I am not convinced that I am seeing as is, and feel that the I is still very much part of the stream of consciousness/thought process.

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Petrus
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Re: Self not? "I" think so!

Postby Petrus » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:38 am

Hi Willy,

I have a set with question for you about thoughts.
Maybe we'll find out with these questions where you are.
Did you read the disclaimer by the way http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/ ?


Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Same about the thought 'I'?


Regards, Petrus

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maxwill
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Re: Self not? "I" think so!

Postby maxwill » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:01 pm

Thoughts come from the mind that creates a stream of consciousness.
I don't know if thoughts are going anywhere.
"I" can not stop a thought in the middle.

I does not generate thoughts. I is a thought like other thoughts.
No. It can not be found. No thinker, just thinking.
Yes, "I" could be just another thought.

No I that controls thoughts. I is another word in the stream of consciousness that attaches to thoughts, and only is an illusion that I controls.
I can not choose to have painful thoughts. They just happen on their own.
I can not choose what to think. Thinking just happens.

I do not think thoughts, thoughts think me.
With practice and conditioning, a thought can stop being thought of as often..
The I thought can stop appearing with practice..

Thank you for the set of questions, they inspired progressive thought..

Will

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Petrus
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Re: Self not? "I" think so!

Postby Petrus » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:41 am

Hi Will,
Thoughts come from the mind that creates a stream of consciousness.
How do you know there is a mind? Where is it? What is it?
With practice and conditioning, a thought can stop being thought of as often..
How you want do that? Or better: who is going to do that and with what?

Warm regards, Petrus

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maxwill
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Re: Self not? "I" think so!

Postby maxwill » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:40 pm

There is a mind because there are thoughts. It is the brain and what it is is automatic...

The brain is going to do that automatically... I guess I can't do that "myself"... So all I can do is not put energy into the thought?...

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Petrus
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Re: Self not? "I" think so!

Postby Petrus » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:47 am

Hi Will,
There is a mind because there are thoughts. It is the brain and what it is is automatic...
Can you directly experience the mind?
Can you directly experience the brain?
It is important to distinguish between actual experience and the arising thoughts and mental images that are trying to interpret and assign meaning to experience.
So all I can do is not put energy into the thought?
Is it really so there is an I that can put energy in thought?
Or maybe that is just a thought too?

Warm regards, Petrus

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maxwill
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Re: Self not? "I" think so!

Postby maxwill » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:42 pm

I can not directly experience the mind. The mind is maybe only an brain's interpretation of the direct experience?

Even when I am not apparently thinking in terms of "I", the mind still sometimes feels clouded and suffers. What is it then that is suffering, or is suffering just happening, even when absent of thought?
Is it really so there is an I that can put energy in thought?
No I can put energy into a thought... thoughts just arise... "I" doesn't control any aspect of them..

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maxwill
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Re: Self not? "I" think so!

Postby maxwill » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:44 pm

Without seeing fully without "i", what leads me to believe that this isn't just another concept?

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Petrus
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Re: Self not? "I" think so!

Postby Petrus » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:52 am

Hi Will,
Even when I am not apparently thinking in terms of "I", the mind still sometimes feels clouded and suffers. What is it then that is suffering, or is suffering just happening, even when absent of thought?
A mind cannot suffer or feel.
When you say it feels clouded and it suffers, there must also be some sort of thought like: "I dont want this".
You could say: "there is an unpleasant feeling" + "I dont want it".

If you look closely there are sensations and thoughts.
And most of the time the thoughts are trying to interpret and assign meaning to the experience.
Can you check that?
Without seeing fully without "i", what leads me to believe that this isn't just another concept?
The fact is, there is no I. Only as a thought.
So I dont advise to believe anything, also not a new concept "there is no I".
I only ask you to LOOK closely at it.
When you hear, is there an I hearing? Or is there hearing only.
When you taste something, is there an I tasting? Or is there tasting only?

Regards, Petrus

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maxwill
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Re: Self not? "I" think so!

Postby maxwill » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:48 am

Hi Petrus,
A mind cannot suffer.. Can only "I" suffer?. Would be thinking "only I cares.." be a fair thought response to the thoughts that try to interpret and assign meaning to experience?? Is it even necessary to pay attention to thoughts at all?!? I feel the answer is no, but I feel some of the thoughts I have are worth sharing... maybe that's "my" problem..

I am aware that I is only a thought.. I haven't found myself identifying with the "I" as much recently.. maybe "I" already understand, and am looking for some big change where there is none... I don't know... When hearing occurs, it is just hearing. When tasting, there is only tasting, not I hearing or I tasting..

I feel sometimes that when something happens on the external environment, sometimes I feel it corresponds to the thoughts that are happening in the head... Could this be arbitrary or maybe some collective unconcious connection? It is sometimes even frightening how perfectly the thoughts line up with something in reality..

sorry for all the questions... I don't know how many of them are relevant to helping the seeing.

With Love, Will

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maxwill
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Re: Self not? "I" think so!

Postby maxwill » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:24 am

Must I take things literally

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Petrus
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Re: Self not? "I" think so!

Postby Petrus » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:38 am

Hi Will,
A mind cannot suffer.. Can only "I" suffer?.
I resists: "I dont want this". That is called suffering.
But when seen it is only a thought claiming reality and wanting its change, the I party is over...
Is it even necessary to pay attention to thoughts at all?!?
Who/what is asking?
A thougth is asking, isnt that interesting?
, but I feel some of the thoughts I have are worth sharing... maybe that's "my" problem..
"Some words are worth sharing" is a thought too. The mind is very tricky in deceiving.
But thinking never will give a real answer!
I feel sometimes that when something happens on the external environment, sometimes I feel it corresponds to the thoughts that are happening in the head... Could this be arbitrary or maybe some collective unconcious connection? It is sometimes even frightening how perfectly the thoughts line up with something in reality..
Not sure what you mean exactly here, but thoughts always comment before and after things happening. Sometimes claiming, sometimes wanting to change, sometimes wanting to manage...
But in reality thoughts cant to a single thing. Isnt that true?

I forgot to ask you:
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

Regards, Petrus

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Petrus
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Re: Self not? "I" think so!

Postby Petrus » Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:42 am

Hi Will,

How are you?
Fed up with liberation?

Regards, Petrus.


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