Seeing clearly

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Cathytkd
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:17 pm

Seeing clearly

Postby Cathytkd » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:46 pm

Hello and Happy Thursday!!

My name is Cathy and I would like a guide to help me see clearly.

User avatar
Alexw
Posts: 1364
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:50 am

Re: Seeing clearly

Postby Alexw » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:53 am

Hi Cathy,

My name is Alex and I would be happy to guide you.
Could you please tell me a bit more about yourself. What brought you to LU? What do you expect from crashing the gate - what will/should be different to how things are now?

Kind regards
Alex

User avatar
Cathytkd
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:17 pm

Re: Seeing clearly

Postby Cathytkd » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:03 am

Hi Alex
Thanks for being my guide.
About myself: I have been searching my whole life. I questioned my catholic faith as a child. It has always felt like something was missing. Somehow I have gotten on this path. It feels like I was led to this site, I don't even remember how I found it. I have also read many books and listened to many spiritual and non duality teachers. It resonates for me. My expectation is to be guided into seeing clearly. Meaning, I am aware that I am not just a body or thoughts. There is an awareness that's aware of this but there is also a sense that the seeing, hearing,thoughts, are centered around this body. When I to find "I" there is a sense of body/ mind and an awareness of it. I'm feeling confused. Does this make sense?
Much thanks.
Cathy

User avatar
Alexw
Posts: 1364
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:50 am

Re: Seeing clearly

Postby Alexw » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:35 am

OK, great!

Before we go into further detail: If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info, the disclaimer and a short video too at: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
Please confirm that you have seen it and agree with it.

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

Please also have a look at how to use the quote function - it makes threads a lot easier to read:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

OK, so lets get started :-)
Meaning, I am aware that I am not just a body or thoughts. There is an awareness that's aware of this but there is also a sense that the seeing, hearing,thoughts, are centered around this body.
I am not sure if you know what we mean with direct experience... so just a brief explanation: Direct experience (DE) is what is perceived via seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touch/feeling PLUS thought. When you look at/experience this moment, there is a range of sense perceptions and thought about it - or about the past or about an I/me or about how something is good or bad or... What we are looking at is what is actually perceived versus what thought says about the experience - does it match? We look at the concepts and beliefs that are established as thought patterns - like "I am a human being having this body/mind that is separate from the world".
Try this: Sit down and close your eyes. Can you please describe the direct experience that happens in this moment. Try to focus on sense perceptions only - not on what thought says about them... Do you find an entity "body"? What is there?
Do the same with eyes open... What do you find?

User avatar
Cathytkd
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:17 pm

Re: Seeing clearly

Postby Cathytkd » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:01 pm

Hi Alex:
Happy Friday!

I have seen and agree to follow the LU guidelines. :)

ok lets see, if i close my eyes and describe the direct experience focusing on sense perception:
I hear the sound of my computer huming, typing in the background,fax machine sending a fax, the beating of my heart, voices, a sense of stillness in the background, feel of my chest rising and falling with each breath, a happy feeling. There is a sense that this comes from a body, that hearing is done with ears, heartbeat is inside this body.

With eyes open there is seeing, the computer, pictures, everything in this room. The sense of stillness in the background is still there, the heartbeat is not felt as much, still a happy feeling. And there is a feeling that these experiences use this body to experience.

User avatar
Alexw
Posts: 1364
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:50 am

Re: Seeing clearly

Postby Alexw » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:13 am

Thank you! Happy Weekend!

Nice first try... but not direct experience ;-)
What you are telling is stories about direct experience, not what yo really experience directly (without conceptual thought weaving stories). Lets have a look at what you found:
I hear the sound of my computer huming
What is the "I" in "I hear the sound" pointing to? Can you please describe in detail what it is that hears. Is it your body or your thoughts that hear? Can you find an entity "hearer" that perceives this sound? Can you? If you think so have a look where the border is between the entity "hearer/I" and the sound... or is all you can notice simply sound..? No borders, no entity hearer...?
fax machine sending a fax
This is a story attached to a specific sound, right? The direct experience would be simply "There is sound".
Does the sound itself have the information "This is a fax machine" attached? Where does this information come from if the sound does not include the information?
the beating of my heart
Is there anymore than a certain physical sensation? A certain pressure or tingling... Does the feeling itself tell you that this is your heart? What tells you?
There is a sense that this comes from a body, that hearing is done with ears, heartbeat is inside this body.
Is this a sense, which would equal a certain sensation/feeling, or is this a thought? Does the concept "body" or "heartbeat" exist outside of thought? Have a close look at the sensation. Does it own any conceptual properties like "body" or "heart"?

Sit down, put your hand on the desk in front of you. Again, first close your eyes. Focus on the physical sensations of "hand on desk". What do you find?
Do this again, this time with eyes open. What do you see? Focus on seeing only - not on physical sensations or thought about "hand". What differentiates "hand" from "desk"?

User avatar
Cathytkd
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:17 pm

Re: Seeing clearly

Postby Cathytkd » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:11 am

Happy Weekend to you, I like that, lol

Wow , I can see by your reply that i have some work to do, you may be right in that i don't exactly know what direct experience is. I do know that there is nothing that I want more than to see clearly, to see through the illusion and know the truth. I welcome this chance to work with you, thank you :)

What is the "I" in "I hear the sound" pointing to? Can you please describe in detail what it is that hears. Is it your body or your thoughts that hear? Can you find an entity "hearer" that perceives this sound? Can you? If you think so have a look where the border is between the entity "hearer/I" and the sound... or is all you can notice simply sound..? No borders, no entity hearer...?
The I is the body, what hears are the ears. And this is a thought, isn't it? There is awareness aware of the
body /mind and that cannot be found, it just is.
This is a story attached to a specific sound, right? The direct experience would be simply "There is sound".
Does the sound itself have the information "This is a fax machine" attached? Where does this information come from if the sound does not include the information?
The information comes from the mind, from past conditioning on what a fax machine sounds like.
the beating of my heart

Is there anymore than a certain physical sensation? A certain pressure or tingling... Does the feeling itself tell you that this is your heart? What tells you?
Yes it is a sensation, my thoughts named it a heart from past conditioning.
Cathytkd wrote:
There is a sense that this comes from a body, that hearing is done with ears, heartbeat is inside this body.

Is this a sense, which would equal a certain sensation/feeling, or is this a thought? Does the concept "body" or "heartbeat" exist outside of thought? Have a close look at the sensation. Does it own any conceptual properties like "body" or "heart"?
It is a thought yes, and it would not exist as body or heartbeat without the thought that that is what it is.
Sit down, put your hand on the desk in front of you. Again, first close your eyes. Focus on the physical sensations of "hand on desk". What do you find?
Do this again, this time with eyes open. What do you see? Focus on seeing only - not on physical sensations or thought about "hand". What differentiates "hand" from "desk"?
with eyes closed: tingling sensation, warmth.
with eyes opened: without thought nothing differentiates hand from desk.

User avatar
Alexw
Posts: 1364
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:50 am

Re: Seeing clearly

Postby Alexw » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:40 am

The I is the body, what hears are the ears. And this is a thought, isn't it? There is awareness aware of the body /mind and that cannot be found, it just is.
Yes, this is a thought - and the part about awareness that can not be found is a thought too :-)
What can be found?
Have another look at the questions from my last post:
Can you find an entity "hearer" that perceives this sound? If you think so have a look if you can find a border between the entity "hearer/I" and the sound... or is all you can notice simply sound happening..? No borders, no entity hearer...?

You can try this with any other sense perception. Have a look at the tingling sensation that you "receive from your hand". Is there an entity "feeler of the sensation" to be found that is separate from the sensation or is there only the pure sensation?
The information comes from the mind, from past conditioning on what a fax machine sounds like.
Yes, true. Can you find an entity "mind"? Or is there only thought arising - one at a time...
with eyes closed: tingling sensation, warmth.
with eyes opened: without thought nothing differentiates hand from desk.
OK... does it require conceptual thought to differentiate between the color of the desk and your hand? It sure does when you start naming colours, or even define objects, but the difference in color is there without concepts, isn't it?

User avatar
Cathytkd
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:17 pm

Re: Seeing clearly

Postby Cathytkd » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:56 am

Hi Alex
Cathytkd wrote:
The I is the body, what hears are the ears. And this is a thought, isn't it? There is awareness aware of the body /mind and that cannot be found, it just is.

Yes, this is a thought - and the part about awareness that can not be found is a thought too :-)
What can be found?
Have another look at the questions from my last post:
Can you find an entity "hearer" that perceives this sound? If you think so have a look if you can find a border between the entity "hearer/I" and the sound... or is all you can notice simply sound happening..? No borders, no entity hearer...?
omg awareness of the body is also a thought, yes lol
No i cannot find an entity hearer, just thoughts, and in eliminating thoughts, just sound.
Cathytkd wrote:
The information comes from the mind, from past conditioning on what a fax machine sounds like.

Yes, true. Can you find an entity "mind"? Or is there only thought arising - one at a time...
I cannot find an entity "mind", there are just thoughts of the belief of a mind inside a body.
cathytkd wrote:
with eyes closed: tingling sensation, warmth.
with eyes opened: without thought nothing differentiates hand from desk.

OK... does it require conceptual thought to differentiate between the color of the desk and your hand? It sure does when you start naming colours, or even define objects, but the difference in color is there without concepts, isn't it?
yes, I agree, the difference is there even without concepts.

In everyday living, is this constant questioning of what are thoughts and what is actual truth the way to begin seeing?
Thanks Alex :)

User avatar
Alexw
Posts: 1364
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:50 am

Re: Seeing clearly

Postby Alexw » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:04 am

omg awareness of the body is also a thought, yes lol
No i cannot find an entity hearer, just thoughts, and in eliminating thoughts, just sound
Please put your hand on the desk one more time (I promise its the last time :-)
Close your eyes. What do you feel? Do you feel your hand or do you feel the desk?
Or both? Are there two experiences happening or only one?
Or is there simply a certain sensation of pressure, a tingling..?
Is the sensation inside of the body or outside? The table is outside, isn't it? The hand inside... Does the feeling convene any information about this "obvious truth"?
Do any of the senses on their own - without conceptual thought - state anything about an in- or outside?
Do any of them state anything about the experience belonging to a separate entity I/me? What does?
In everyday living, is this constant questioning of what are thoughts and what is actual truth the way to begin seeing?
It is one way. It leads to clear understanding of what is - clear seeing equals clear understanding. Thoughts and feelings will gradually adapt based on your understanding. This is why now you see yourself as separate from the world - when it is known without doubt that this is not so also your thoughts and feelings will change. How you "physically" see the world will not change - but your attitude towards it is completely different...

User avatar
Cathytkd
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:17 pm

Re: Seeing clearly

Postby Cathytkd » Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:24 am

Hi Alex
Happy Saturday!!
Please put your hand on the desk one more time (I promise its the last time :-)
Close your eyes. What do you feel? Do you feel your hand or do you feel the desk?
Or both? Are there two experiences happening or only one?
Or is there simply a certain sensation of pressure, a tingling..?
Is the sensation inside of the body or outside? The table is outside, isn't it? The hand inside... Does the feeling convene any information about this "obvious truth"?
Do any of the senses on their own - without conceptual thought - state anything about an in- or outside?
Do any of them state anything about the experience belonging to a separate entity I/me? What does?
Sure I can put my hand on the desk as many times as you want, I trust your guidance.
There is a certain tingling sensation when I do this. It is one experience. The feeling does not convene any information. The sensation does not state anything about in or outside nor does it state anything about it belonging to a separate entity. There is nothing that states that an experience belongs to anything, it's just the experience happening.

I have tried to pay attention to direct experience today. For example, if something said caused a sensation in the body, the focus was on just the direct experience of that sensation,not the story around it. While driving, seeing was happening, direct experience?? And then the thought came up, isn't the knowing of a direct experience also a thought? Is rambling going on, lol Thanks for spending time guiding me.

User avatar
Alexw
Posts: 1364
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:50 am

Re: Seeing clearly

Postby Alexw » Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:42 am

Does a thought know direct experience - meaning: does a thought experience anything itself - or do you know/experience thought that states something about direct experience?
Does a thought know anything?

When experiencing happens, it is known... you are aware of it, right?
Is the experiencing/knowing/being aware separate from the experience?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

User avatar
Cathytkd
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:17 pm

Re: Seeing clearly

Postby Cathytkd » Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:48 am

Does a thought know direct experience - meaning: does a thought experience anything itself - or do you know/experience thought that states something about direct experience?
Does a thought know anything?

When experiencing happens, it is known... you are aware of it, right?
Is the experiencing/knowing/being aware separate from the experience?
no a thought doesn't experience anything, it comes and goes.
Yes there is awareness of an experience and there is no separation between the experience and experiencing.

User avatar
Alexw
Posts: 1364
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:50 am

Re: Seeing clearly

Postby Alexw » Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:59 am

Where can you find this separate entity I/me that seems to be doing the experiencing? Do you find it hidden in any of the sense perceptions? In the experience? Can you find a separate entity at all if there is no separation between experience and experiencing?
Where do you think the concept of this separate I/me comes from?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

User avatar
Cathytkd
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:17 pm

Re: Seeing clearly

Postby Cathytkd » Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:32 am

Where can you find this separate entity I/me that seems to be doing the experiencing? Do you find it hidden in any of the sense perceptions? In the experience? Can you find a separate entity at all if there is no separation between experience and experiencing?
Where do you think the concept of this separate I/me comes from?
Well if focusing on direct experience then there is no I at all, there is just what is happening and nothing else. This knowing doesn't stay, it comes and goes. When it goes there is a feeling of an I that is is centered around the body and mind, although even with this feeling there is still a knowing that the I is just a thought. A conditioning that is taught as a child. I think everything is understood but not truly known. Doubt and fear come in sometimes.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 71 guests