In here Sam...

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loftygoal
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby loftygoal » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:53 am

Do this;
After you have finished the formal part of your meditation (good stuff by the way, just a shame it can never lead to enlightenment) Contemplate this; Everything in your direct experiencing (that is Now) is what we will call reality.
Everything added to that by thought, opinion, judgement etc. is NOT reality, but the reaction to that is.
Seeing what is added, and the ensuing reactions is our task. We do this backwards. Ask yourself, is the reaction (sensation, emotion, thought pattern etc.) is it what is Added to reality, or is it part or the Original direct experiencing.
You are NOT looking for answers here. Just do this at the end of each meditation for a few minutes and focus on developing the Questions. (re-read the bit above from my blog)
Report what happens.
I have read in a Buddhist book, that there is concentration practice (Samatha) and insight practice (Vipassana). I'm not sure where my meditation falls in (probably concentration). But from what I read in that book, Samatha alone can never bring you enlightenment other than some exalted states. Insight meditation is what is needed to really see into reality and to really awaken.

From what I understand you are suggesting me to add an insight meditation style practice at the end. Correct?

Let me restate what you said. I think it is similar to the noting practice. Just sit and remain silent. Try to note sensations/thoughts/emotions occuring. Just note if the experience is first-hand (directly emanated from silence) or a reaction to my first-hand experience. Just note and do nothing. Continue with the process.

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vinceschubert
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:53 am

No meditation will take you to enlightenment.
Meditation is a good thing for other purposes.
Vipassana works on concentration, mindfulness, wisdom.
In Jed McKennas terms this will bring you to Human Adulthood (most of the population is stuck in the child state)
I repeat, what we are doing is not a spiritual path (even though it has spiritual outcomes)
We are working at a brain level.
You have been brain conditioned by experience affected by circumstances.
We are simple de-conditioning the brain.
We want certain neural pathways to weaken and fade out and others to strengthen and become dominant.
What i was suggesting for you at the end of a sit was to consider what was in your direct experience and what was ADDED to this (which brings it into your direct experience)
For example; if you notice an itch you have several options. You can scratch it. You can not scratch it. If you don't scratch it, you can ignore it and concentrate on some other part of your body and something will happen, or if you don't scratch it you can become obsessed with it wanting to scratch it, keeping your attention on it. If the intensity of the itch grows you may notice tension in other parts of the body, you may become agitated until in the end you have to scratch.
The keeping your attention on it ADDS to the actual itch. It wasn't in your direct experience to have the outcomes above - but then they were in your direct experience AFTER they arrived.

Sam, we can't work out way to the moment that you SEE. It will Happen. Just like seeing the shark in the stereogram. You play around with different ways of looking (look at an imagined spot behind the picture) until it Happens.
You didn't earn it by hard work. No practice led you to see it.
YOU DISCOVERED IT.

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loftygoal
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby loftygoal » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:11 am

I tried what you said after my usual practice sessions.

You didnt tell me what to concentrate on (breath etc..), so I just remained silent and waited for the next sensation to arise. I ignored by body touching wall or floor kind of sensations as they are always present and the session would become like a concentration on those.

I looked for other sensations/thoughts. A few itches, a few voices heard, getting caught in thoughts, some images of places. That is how it went. I wasnt able to witness the thoughts, just anaylzed them as a post-commentary (direct or added experience) after I realized I got caught in a series of thoughts.

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vinceschubert
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:21 am

Sam, where did those thoughts come from ?
How did they arise ?

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loftygoal
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby loftygoal » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:46 am

Some had an origin like a sound I heard of my wife talking or some smell from the kitchen

But in most cases, I was caught up in a series of thoughts and then realized and tried to think of the origin thought, which I was not sure where it came from. May be it just popped up

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Re: In here Sam...

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:16 am

...it just popped up
Yes! they just arise. If you need an explanation, they are the result of brain responding to stimulus. That stimulus could be in the environment, in the body (a sensation) or another thought.
So having resolved that thought is an automatic function, where is the I/me ? What is it ?

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loftygoal
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby loftygoal » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:13 pm

The I/me is (in my experience)

- An image or feeling that comes to mind
- The appearance of control on the body and mind

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Re: In here Sam...

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:27 pm

An image or feeling that comes to mind
The "image" is a visual thought - right ?
The "feeling", hmm, i can't understand how a feeling can come to mind unless it's thoughts (memory) of a sensation. LOOK at this again and try and be more precise about language.
"comes to mind", Mind = Thoughts right ?
The appearance of control on the body and mind
This is the Brilliant one. You don't know how right you were (or you would be shouting from the rooftops)
"appearance of control", APPEARANCE ! Control !
For 'peace of mind' there needs to be a belief that we have free will and control, but it is just an appearance.
You saw in that video how the mind comes in after the brain does what it is conditioned to do and claims ownership, how it deludes itself into believing that It had the thought, Remember that ?
So where is the YOU, the I or Me in all of that ?
Can you find it anywhere ?

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Re: In here Sam...

Postby loftygoal » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:48 pm

The "image" is a visual thought - right ?
The "feeling", hmm, i can't understand how a feeling can come to mind unless it's thoughts (memory) of a sensation. LOOK at this again and try and be more precise about language.
"comes to mind", Mind = Thoughts right ?
By Image I mean image of my face. That comes to mind when I say who am I?

By feeling, it is a feeling of a sense of self. Especially when painful/happy emotions arise it seems to get stronger.

Yes, all of these are based in thoughts
The appearance of control on the body and mind
This is the Brilliant one. You don't know how right you were (or you would be shouting from the rooftops)
"appearance of control", APPEARANCE ! Control !
For 'peace of mind' there needs to be a belief that we have free will and control, but it is just an appearance.
You saw in that video how the mind comes in after the brain does what it is conditioned to do and claims ownership, how it deludes itself into believing that It had the thought, Remember that ?
So where is the YOU, the I or Me in all of that ?
Can you find it anywhere ?[/quote]

I dont find it anywhere. It makes sense that the "I" is a phantom thing that built itself into existence. But the identification with painful emotions that are generated seems real and painful. The sense of self that I have in me feels real. How does these (identification and sense of self) drop away?

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Re: In here Sam...

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:27 pm

Yes, all of these are based in thoughts
They are constructed of thought and have emotional/sensation responses.
The sense of self that I have in me feels real
Yes, of course it feels real. The sensations that are generated are real. They are just responses to mind.
I dont find it anywhere.
This is good, Now go one more step. Look until you accept that you don't find it anywhere BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST!

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loftygoal
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby loftygoal » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:47 pm

This is good, Now go one more step. Look until you accept that you don't find it anywhere BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST!
Working on it...Will be at it for a few days or a week and report back. Unless the feeling of being in control doesnt go, I doubt if I can "accept" completely. Because till then my body seems to need me

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Re: In here Sam...

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:14 pm

Because till then my body seems to need me
does your body need you to digest food or to pump blood around ?
Have you ever driven somewhere then realised that you don't remember some part of the trip ?
Were you conscious when you walked from one room to another ?
Your body does it quite well without you.
Look for examples of this.

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loftygoal
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby loftygoal » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:54 am

Your body does it quite well without you.
Not when I am conscious. lol. Whenever I get lost it takes care of itself. When I am conscious, I come in its way. Or as my teacher describes "I come in the way of divinity flowing freely and acting through me".

I dont know how to get lost. How to uncreate my own creation/confusion.

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vinceschubert
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:18 am

You don't need to know how. You don't DO it.
You can't DO discovery - right ?

When you "come in it's way" you are Adding to it - right ?
This addition may be an interference, but it is an addition to what was occurring anyway.
You can't think "stop thinking about breathing" to take away conscious influence on your breathing. It only goes away when you forget to think about it.
You don't get in a panic thinking that when you stop being conscious of breathing that it will cease altogether.
You trust that the brain will take over and that the body will just carry on as it always does.
Without a 'you' everything, everything will just carry on as normal, only without any 'coming in it's way'

Telling yourself to get lost will only have the affect of making you more attentive to where you are going.
You can't uncreate your own creation/confusion as 'you' didn't do it in the first place.
Like thoughts, it just happened. There is no 'you' to do it.
'You' only came in After the fact and claimed ownership, but it was/is an illusion.

Do this;
Make the decision to touch your head.
Now ask yourself "who made the decision ?"










Wasn't it the case that the thoughts (decision) to touch your head was stimulated from your environment (what was suggested here)
Did you see how you hoodwinked yourself into thinking that it was Your decision ?

Can you see how everything is just stimulus response ?

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loftygoal
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby loftygoal » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:26 pm

yes as krishnamurti said environment and reactions to environment


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