In here Sam...

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loftygoal
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby loftygoal » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:49 am

I meditate twice daily; that is the recommended approach of the system. It is a mantra style meditation that involves repeating a mantra (http://www.aypsite.org/13.html)

As I said I have been doing this (AYP) (and have intermittently tried couple others too) for the past 5 years. Others such as Carson have got great results with it but I feel kind of stuck.

I have belief in the system that it will work. It has for others. I think it is just me. However long it takes, I just have to let go of the expectations and be with the process. My Self-Inquiry will mostly be at the mind-level now I guess. Thanks for trying.

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vinceschubert
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:10 am

I meditate twice daily
excellent. i presume you sit for an hour?
Do this;
Start a sit as you normally would but after about ten minutes or when you feel that you have 'settled', stop your mantra and scan your body from tip of head to lowest point for sensations.
Just noting them. No opinions, No judgements, just noting.
Do that twice, then do it again but this time sneakily watch what thought patterns occur. Your not interested in the content of them other to note how they fit a pattern.
Do mantra for another 10 minutes or so then repeat.
See if you can detect any connection between the sensations and thoughts.

report what was noticed.

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vinceschubert
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:14 am

Thanks for trying.
Ha, almost missed this.
We are not 'trying'
The only way you will not 'see' this is if you stop.
We are only part of the way through the dance and the music hasn't stopped.
Keep dancing.

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loftygoal
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby loftygoal » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:53 pm

I tried that twice yesterday night and today morning

No sensations were observed except for the heat and energy in my palms held together in meditation. Not much thoughts either except for couple of images of places

I'm ready to dance till the music stops :)

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vinceschubert
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:32 pm

I'm ready to dance till the music stops :)

Code: Select all

:-)
No sensations were observed except for the heat and energy in my palms
That's amazing.
Do you mean that there were no itches or feeling in the legs from sitting still etc, or are you saying there were no unusual sensations ?
So did you look for any relationship between hand sensation and thought (image) ?

It would seem that you are extremely well accomplished with your meditation. For thoughts to be so absent.
Have you noticed that since starting meditation there has come into being, a space between events and your reaction to them?
Do you now not automatically react with emotion ?

Sam, try to answer all of the questions please.

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loftygoal
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby loftygoal » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:17 pm

Do you mean that there were no itches or feeling in the legs from sitting still etc, or are you saying there were no unusual sensations ?
hmm..it is not like I lost my body or something. I just didnt notice any unusual sensations or energy in the body
So did you look for any relationship between hand sensation and thought (image) ?
hmm..you asked me to sneakily watch if thoughts appear. I wasnt able to notice any thought
It would seem that you are extremely well accomplished with your meditation. For thoughts to be so absent.
I get lot of thoughts during meditation. Somehow during that scanning thing, I was just scanning, didnt notice any big thoughts other than images of places
Have you noticed that since starting meditation there has come into being, a space between events and your reaction to them?
Do you now not automatically react with emotion ?
I am not sure of any feeling of space. There was one incident in my relationship that used to irritate me easily. I thought I'll never be able to take it. I was able to take it more easily since past 2 months. There is more interest in non-dual teachings which used to be difficult to understand earlier. There seems to be more silence post meditation. How do I measure it? We have a practice called samyama which is a letting go practice that we do after meditation. There seems to be more silence and letting go in there. Random unrelated thoughts pop-up. For example I get an image of a pond that I saw when I was 6 yrs old which I dont even consciously remember and I let it go and next moment I get image/thought of something totally unrelated say being in a parking lot of a casino I went to 4 yrs back.

But I am not yet in a witness state or dont feel any observable space between my thoughts. I actually hit witness state once in sleep during a retreat and once in sleep again after a prolonged chanting session (not my meditation). Kind of lucid dreaming. Things at work still hurt the same. Other things too hurt the same. I definitely dont have any visions or any inner seeing (senses turning inward)

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Re: In here Sam...

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:14 am

even if i turn out to be a better person at the end i am willing to take it.
Sam, Define "person"

Now define "better person"
didnt notice any big thoughts
i didn't ask you to notice BIG thoughts. Any thought....
didnt notice any unusual sensations
i didn't ask you to notice UNUSUAL sensations. Any sensations....
Will you do that exercise again and this time Look for the connection between Sensation and Thought.
Report results.

my expectations are always high especially with spiritual methods.
Sam, i missed this in your original post.
i have to tell you that what we are doing is NOT a spiritual process. (there will certainly be Spiritual outcomes but this process is NOT spiritual)
It's a common sense, down to earth observation of your conditioning.
Can you put everything you consider Spiritual aside for this exercise. (keep doing what you are doing - just don't lump this in with that.)
Image
If i managed to insert an actual image above - can you see the shark ?
If you haven't seen one of these before - it is all in how you look.
Once seen it is easy to see it again.
What were doing is the same process. It is HOW you look (but in what we're doing it isn't looking with eyes) but it is the same process. Play around with how you look until, Aha! i see it!!!

There was a famous experiment done years ago where a special pair of glasses that inverted what was seen - turned everything upside down. So when looking through them the sky was down and the ground was up.
You can imagine how disconcerting that would be.
Well, doing nothing, 20 minutes later, suddenly everything went back to normal. What happened.
The brain simply adjusted to return to the familiar.
That's what is happening to your brain. It is grasping the familiar, holding on tightly and rejecting anything that might disturb its' habitual working.
That is why it is re-interpreting my questions from 'sensations' to 'BIG sensations' or 'UNUSUAL thoughts' and it hangs onto what you already know about Spiritual paths.
It's not something you can control. It is brain conditioning.
We just need to look a certain way and it will all fall into place.

Tell me how do the Bullies at work get at you ?

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vinceschubert
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:17 am

bugger, the picture didn't work.
i'll try again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stere ... _Shark.png
[img]300px-Stereogram.jpg[/img]

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loftygoal
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby loftygoal » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:30 am

Sam, Define "person"

Now define "better person"
Person: The scientific/traditional definition of a human being
Better Person: Better compared to the person I was when I started the thread. Better means, having less beliefs than before, less illusion than before
i didn't ask you to notice BIG thoughts. Any thought....

i didn't ask you to notice UNUSUAL sensations. Any sensations....
Will you do that exercise again and this time Look for the connection between Sensation and Thought.
Report results.
Actually last time I was looking for some energy movements inside body and found none. But when I looked for sensations, I do sense my back to the wall, my legs on bed, my legs touching each other, my hands touching my lap in addition to the energy sensation at my palms as I told before.

I looked for thoughts but not sure if I got any thoughts except for rare images of places. There is this feeling of sensation in all the places above. If I note the feeling down as a thought "feeling" then those are the only type of thoughts.
Tell me how do the Bullies at work get at you ?
In the next post...

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vinceschubert
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:43 am

I do sense my back to the wall, my legs on bed, my legs touching each other, my hands touching my lap
How do you 'sense' them without thought ?

Do answer the other questions too.

Did you click on the link to the stereogram,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stere ... _Shark.png

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loftygoal
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby loftygoal » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:50 am

In most places I worked I had some problem with authority especially with my bosses or aggressive colleagues.

I dont have good assertive communication skills. If an aggressive colleague pushes the limits or takes credit or tries to get his way by a manipulative argument or even tries to be my boss questioning me I cannot really defend myself; especially in person (email or in writing works fine). If my boss behaves rudely or is unfair etc.. I cannot make my case. A third case is when people point at my mistakes or tell me to follow rules I dont seem to like it. Especially when it happens in a group email copying everyone.

What happens to me when these things happen?

Especially in the first two cases (aggressive colleague and boss), an immediate emotion is generated in my body especially in the heart area. This emotion is associated with "feeling hurt", "being attacked", "looking stupid", "cant respond back", "cant talk" thoughts or feelings.

The event keeps repeating in my mind even after I go home and disturbs my peace of mind

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loftygoal
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby loftygoal » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:59 am

How do you 'sense' them without thought ?
Okay, I probably didnt count the sensation as a thought. Science says touch is a sensation that is carried to brain, so obviously it is a thought too. If you are asking if I can catch that thought that the sensation generates, I cant. I can try again after meditation next time as the mind will be more silent then

The shark in the dotted pic is hard for me to see despite trying to focus as specified. I'll try again later and let u know

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vinceschubert
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:18 am

Sam, watch this video.
It explains why your face to face encounters happen as they do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbh5l0b2 ... e=youtu.be

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loftygoal
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Re: In here Sam...

Postby loftygoal » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:57 pm

Interesting Video. One of my friends who is pretty similar to me decided he is in depression and started taking the serotinin tabs.

When I started meditation, five years ago, I expected this "emotion" will go away or will reduce or will not be triggered. I later learnt that expectation is kind of wrong as even in enlightened people the painful emotions still arise due to the conditioning that they are born with. There is simply no resistance to it and no suffering from the pain.

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Re: In here Sam...

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:44 pm

as even in enlightened people the painful emotions still arise due to the conditioning that they are born with. There is simply no resistance to it and no suffering from the pain.
That's kind of right.
In most cases though it wouldn't be a congenital condition (born with) but a learned state from conditioning.
Ha, synchronicity also increases (or what might be described that way)
Here is an exerp from my blog yesterday about exactly that;
Before, there was a desperate attempt to work out what was going on subconsciously, based on the belief that every neurosis had to be worked out/through individually. That each had to be brought to the surface and washed clean, whereas now it is seen that these thing can simple be dropped, en masse, simply with the exposure of the process that they are involved in.
Details are irrelevant. Each time a trigger is activated, regardless of What it brings up, it is Seen and that is usually the end of it.
Some triggers need multiple exposure but most do Not.


Certainly seratonin medication may alleviate symptoms but i would see them at a temporary measure to allow change to take place from de-conditioning a habitual way of thinking.

Pain is physical. Suffering is the result of thought about the pain.
Emotions are the bodys' reaction to thought.
if I can catch that thought that the sensation generates
It's the other way around.
Thought generates sensation (other than the 'stub you toe' kind and even that action may be the result of thoughts not heard)

What we are trying to achieve here Sam is 'self awareness' (do you see the pun ?)

There were things in the first chapter of that vid that spoke directly to how you operate, yet you only found it mildly interesting. (which i find interesting)
The bit were that talks about the limbic system (primitive brain that looks after survival) swamping everything with the chemical that inhibits the frontal brain from reasoning in a perceived danger situation seem to describe exactly what happens to you with the work situation.

Your brain has worn a groove that you are seemingly stuck in. We need to jump the tracks.
Do this;
After you have finished the formal part of your meditation (good stuff by the way, just a shame it can never lead to enlightenment) Contemplate this; Everything in your direct experiencing (that is Now) is what we will call reality.
Everything added to that by thought, opinion, judgement etc. is NOT reality, but the reaction to that is.
Seeing what is added, and the ensuing reactions is our task. We do this backwards. Ask yourself, is the reaction (sensation, emotion, thought pattern etc.) is it what is Added to reality, or is it part or the Original direct experiencing.
You are NOT looking for answers here. Just do this at the end of each meditation for a few minutes and focus on developing the Questions. (re-read the bit above from my blog)
Report what happens.


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