New to this site

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papabo
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New to this site

Postby papabo » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:44 pm

Hi. My name is Michael. An ongoing spiritual quest has shown me that a clear understanding of my true identity is essential in my effort to live life well. I am hoping this site offers an authentic approach to this subject. I am open minded but a bit skeptical from past experiences. Help me understand this process and my role in making it a success. Thanks for being there.

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lorepep
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Re: New to this site

Postby lorepep » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:24 pm

Hi Michael!
My name is Lorenzo and would be glad to be your guide.

Feel free to have a look at the other threads to get a sense of how interactions are carried along.

There are few guidelines that I ask you to respect:

1. Please agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same.
2. I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.
3. In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Please avoid analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.
6. Familiarize with the quote funcion (explained here: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/nati ... ?f=4&t=660)

Thank you

Lorenzo

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papabo
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Thanks for responding

Postby papabo » Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:18 am

Hi Lorenzo, thank you for stepping forward to be my guide.

I am interested and anxious to begin the process. I am still learning to navigate the site, and not clear as to what a "thread" is. Share a few comments to help me begin to move around in the site. Also, what role does the quote function play in what we will be doing?

I assure you I will be as honest and transparent as possible. No game playing -- this is too important for such.

I will do my best to make contact at least once each day.

Thanks again for being my guide.

Michael

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lorepep
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Re: New to this site

Postby lorepep » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:03 am

Hi Michael.

Thank you for having agreed.

Threads are other discussions regarding other users conversations.
Also, what role does the quote function play in what we will be doing?
Quote function, like I've done, is useful to keep the answer-question format we are going to have as clear as possible.
As a last step confirm me you have read the disclaimer: http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/


Ok, you wrote about past experiences...

What are your expectations for liberation? How will this feel? How will this change you?

Lorenzo

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lorepep
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Re: New to this site

Postby lorepep » Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:00 pm

I am open minded but a bit skeptical from past experiences
Just to understand, could you please clarify what you meant?
I mean are you skeptical in general or you have been guided here before?

Thank you :)

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papabo
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Re: New to this site

Postby papabo » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:11 pm

Lorenzo,

First off, I have reread the disclaimer. I chuckle every time I hear about spiritual tourists being launched into space.

Thinking about spiritual tourist relates to my comment about being skeptical. My journey has brought me in contact with many such tourists as they window shop for that one perfect teacher or teaching. I tend to be skeptical because I have watched organizations catering to the tourists with programs that sound and look good on the surface but end up just adding to a person's burden without providing any real meaningful progress.

I am impressed thus far with what I sense here and am very optimistic that by interacting with you with full authenticity and honesty I will have the opportunity to experience what I am looking for.

Your initial questions about my expectations for liberation are huge, and I find myself going deep within to try to answer them well. I want to take some more time to let some clarity arise for me. I find myself really drawn to this process and am enjoying (if that is the right word) the silent attention on your questions that are of such importance in my life. Maybe you can comment on the best approach here -- giving it time for answers to arise vs. providing a spontaneous response. My preference is to not force it.

I am feeling a bond with you already without really knowing you. Seldom do I have the opportunity to share with someone else at this level.

Thanks again for being my guide.

Michael

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lorepep
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Re: New to this site

Postby lorepep » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:29 pm

Hi Michael!
end up just adding to a person's burden without providing any real meaningful progress.
I can relate a lot with this too, so don't worry :)
I am feeling a bond with you already without really knowing you. Seldom do I have the opportunity to share with someone else at this level.
I am happy to hear that.

Sit with every question for as long as it takes and report what arises.
The only caveat is please do your best to stick with what you directly experience and avoid analytical or philosophical answers.

I would also suggest you to click on the "Subscribe topic" button at the end of the page, so you will get an email when I write on this post.

Thank you

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papabo
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Re: New to this site

Postby papabo » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:09 am

Lorenzo,

I greatly respect your suggestion that answers be based on what we personally experience. The spiritual community gets pretty crazy when we go around internalizing others' teachings and restating it as our own.

I am going to make a sincere effort to answer your initial questions about my expectations about liberation and how it will change me (I still have not figured out the quote function). First off, I do not think I have expectations at this point. I am moving into the unknown (for me at least) and my mind is not capable of knowing what it might be like. The meaningful experiences I have had were quite clearly from a realm beyond the mind, characterized by what I might call silence, emptiness, void free of any objects, free of any content, beyond good and bad. Many of those experiences were related in some way to the state of deep dreamless sleep, either in the momentary gap between sleep and waking or on reflecting later about a period of deep sleep. I have many times watched my mind kick in and move me from that state of bliss and nothingness to this waking world dominated by thoughts. And so my crude sense of liberation sees me as being already liberated right now, only my out of control mind obscures the true vision of how life is. Times in meditation and those unexpected moments during the day when I suddenly remember to be still show me very clearly that true vision, which probably includes the fact that I am already a liberated being, is always there. I am just so lost in my thoughts that this true vision is obscured, just as clouds block out the sun at times. How will it feel? I am not sure that will be an appropriate question, as most of my past experiences were beyond good and bad, they just were. How will it change me? My hunch is that it will not change anything, and at the same time change everything. A person I interact with probably would not notice anything, and yet my total view of life would likely be completely different.

I feel like I have already said too much. My mind is itching to play with this, but the only authentic thing I can do is reflect on the real experiences I have had in the past, and those were empty without words or concepts or anything my mind can get ahold of.

This feels like a feeble attempt to answer the question, but I am digging about as deep as I can go at the moment. What are you hearing and feeling as you read this?

Michael

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lorepep
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Re: New to this site

Postby lorepep » Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:33 am

Hi Michael!

First of all thank you for the accurate report, and don't worry about the quote function :)
The meaningful experiences I have had were quite clearly from a realm beyond the mind, characterized by what I might call silence, emptiness,
Ok, here we are not looking for an experience, our goal is not that. Experiences arise and are transient. We are aiming at realisation, at seeing that the self doesn't exist.
How will it change me? My hunch is that it will not change anything
There is nothing that needs to happen. Everything is already as it always is and the thought processes will keep happening as any other thing.

Ok so let's put your expectations aside for a while and look with fresh eyes at what is going on.

What comes up if I say that there is no YOU?

Sit with this and report.

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papabo
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Re: New to this site

Postby papabo » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:43 pm

Lorenzo,

I am a bit confused. We were trying to answer some questions about liberation, and stressing that our responses should be based on personal experience. Now we are suddenly saying that experiences come and go, and what matters is realization, and jumping to the bottom line theme of the website which is the nonexistence of a personal me. Any attempt to realize that right now is going to come from my mind and comments I have heard from teachers. It feels like we are jumping right to the punchline in the first few minutes of conversation.

I, like most humans, have spent decades creating and enhancing this personal self. Perhaps I question it at some level, but how am I to try to realize the notion that this is no me without it being just a mental exercise?

Michael

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lorepep
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Re: New to this site

Postby lorepep » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:14 pm

Hi Michael!

Thank you for the observation :)
. Any attempt to realize that right now is going to come from my mind and comments I have heard from teachers.
My question was not to try to realize this.
What I simply want to know is what arises in you if you sit with the sentence I wrote you.
Look at every single thought, feeling, emotion, sensation, you notice, as well as anything else that might arise and report them as clearly as possible.

We are not realizing anything, just investigating...Look directly

Thank you

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papabo
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Re: New to this site

Postby papabo » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:06 pm

Greetings Lorenzo,

Thank you for clarifying your intentions.

I am experiencing some unexpected reactions to the suggestion that there is no ME. There are times when I feel a sense of relief, relaxing, a deep sense that this is closer to nature and truth and Life than the normal perspective with me at the center. I am trying to be careful here to not incorporate teachings about moving from personal to impersonal. Right now I am just watching my inner reactions when I consider the point. And thus far this reaction of relief and relaxation has been dominant.

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lorepep
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Re: New to this site

Postby lorepep » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:51 am

Hi Michael!

Thank you for your report.
There are times when I feel a sense of relief, relaxing
It is great! You can see that when there are glimpses of the non-existance of a controller, of someone running the whole show a sense of relaxation and relief appears.

So let's go on from this.

Sit with every sensation that arises in you, observe it, focus your attention on it.
Report directly what is happening and write it down.

1) Choose a word to describe the physcal sensation (agitation, relaxation, tension, ...)
2) What happens when you focus on it? (it gets stronger/weaker, it disappears, it appears somewhere else,...)

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papabo
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Re: New to this site

Postby papabo » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:07 am

Lorenzo,

Thanks for your guidance and encouragement.

I am working on it. And am busy and tired at the moment so the attention will have to be in the midst of all that.

Michael

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lorepep
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Re: New to this site

Postby lorepep » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:57 am

Hi Michael!

Don't worry and thank you for having written to let me know.

Take your time.

Lorenzo


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