Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
floragate
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:53 am

Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

Postby floragate » Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:09 pm

Hello everyone,

I'm Flora. Reading some blogs about non-duality, awakening and enlightenment led me to this website, which I think is an amazing initiative by the way. I have read a lot of stories in the book 'Gateless Gatecrashers' and many threads on the forum. I have had some moments of clarity where it seemed really clear that there is no separate self.

But it has been said that what is seen can never be unseen. I feel that there are still some doubts though, the belief hasn't completely dropped away yet. I can't honestly say that I am 100% sure that I am through the Gate.

After reading some threads I realized that I really like Vivien's style of guiding. Therefore I am hoping that she would want to guide me? If it is not a possibility to be guided by Vivien, then I would also be happy with any other guide.

Thank you. :)

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4745
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:54 pm

Hi floragate,

Thank you for your introduction. I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self', though I can only point the way. You have to 'see' it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.

You and I will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no 'self'. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
- Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?


Please answer these questions in great detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
floragate
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:53 am

Re: Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

Postby floragate » Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:16 pm

Thank you so much for your offer to guide me! I really appreciate it :)
A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.
Agreed!
What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the self?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
I expect that life itself will not change that much, but rather 'my' relationship to it. I don't expect conditions to change magically, but I hope to find more peace and contentment without needing boyfriends, shopping, attention, food, other people, etc. to 'fill' me up. I hope to be more accepting of what is, and not really care extremely much about my life situation. That the 'seeking' for something other than what is now will be gone.

As I've mentioned before, I hope that I can find peace and relax more, knowing that 'I' don't have to put in effort trying to control my life, because I don't have control and never had it at all. To be honest, I hope to just be really relaxed and not give a f*ck anymore, and trust that whatever is happening is all for the best anyways. I realized about myself that I tend to get really obsessed about controlling everything that happens in my life, which brings a lot of stress.

So basically, I hope to realize what the 'truth' of no self really is, and to find joy and peace.


I also wanted to ask you, what 'enlightenment' itself actually is? On the internet I have heard so many people talking about it, and it is not really clear to me what the actual 'definition' of it is. I know that LU uses the term liberation as a first step to seeing that there is not a separate entity called a self, but what happens after that? Will I be 'awakened' then or do I still have a long way to go? Sorry for all the questions, but I am a bit of a newbie to all of this and am a bit overwhelmed by all that is being said about enlightenment by different people.

Thanks again!
Flora :)

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4745
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:40 pm

Dear Flora,

Thank you for listing your expectations. This list is important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?
I expect that life itself will not change that much, but rather 'my' relationship to it.
Life or outer circumstances won’t change at all. Life is always is as it is. Only the perception changes. So everything will be the same, although everything might look different.
but I hope to find more peace and contentment without needing boyfriends, shopping, attention, food, other people, etc. to 'fill' me up.
Yes. This is not simply an expectation but a good observation as well. However, it can be realised that there is no ‘you’ that would find peace or contentment, there is no ‘you’ that could be filled up.

Peace, contentment or happiness are states, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Liberation is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting whatever is arising in this moment.

Many seekers believe that liberation is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case.

Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity ‘self’ is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual.

For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
I hope to be more accepting of what is, and not really care extremely much about my life situation.
There is no ‘you’ that could accept what is, acceptance can happen, but without a doer, an owner (you). And also, you don’t have a life situation, you don’t have anything, because there is no ‘you’ that could own anything. Life happens, but without ‘you’.
That the 'seeking' for something other than what is now will be gone.
Yes, this may or may not happen. But seeking and non-acceptance are the result of X years of conditionings. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so they GRADUALLY fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.
knowing that 'I' don't have to put in effort trying to control my life, because I don't have control and never had it at all.
It is not simply about having or not having control, it is about seeing through the unexamined assumption, the belief that there is a ‘you’ that supposedly could control anything.
I realized about myself that I tend to get really obsessed about controlling everything that happens in my life, which brings a lot of stress.
  • - There is no you that could realise anything
    - There is no you that could get obsessed, obsession can happen, but nothing (no thing) is doing it, it happens by itself
    - Controlling happens, but without you
    - You don’t have a life, there is just life
So basically, I hope to realize what the 'truth' of no self really is, and to find joy and peace.
Liberation is not about having a constant or almost constant joy and peace and not having the ¾ of the remaining emotions. It is quite the contrary! Encompassing all emotions, whatever arises in this moment.

After seeing through the self, identification with the I-thought and self-referencing thoughts and stories still arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.
I also wanted to ask you, what 'enlightenment' itself actually is? On the internet I have heard so many people talking about it, and it is not really clear to me what the actual 'definition' of it is.
It doesn’t matter what the definition is. Only the intellect wants to define everything, but it’s funny, because it can never be understood by the intellect. There is no enlightenment. Enlightenment is just a mental label attached to experiencing. Enlightenment is important only from the perspective of the non-existent self. Only the self (which is just an illusion) wants to achieve enlightenment, in a hope to get “a better version of me”. But when the self is seen through, this futile desire can dissolve.

What I propose to do is to set you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this direct experience, or the uninterpreted moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling. These exercises can help to see what is ‘real’ and what is not.

But before starting, please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
floragate
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:53 am

Re: Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

Postby floragate » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:35 pm

Life or outer circumstances won’t change at all. Life is always is as it is. Only the perception changes. So everything will be the same, although everything might look different.
I guess this is true. Maybe there was some secret hope that awakening would sprinkle some magic over outer circumstances.
Yes. This is not simply an expectation but a good observation as well. However, it can be realised that there is no ‘you’ that would find peace or contentment, there is no ‘you’ that could be filled up.

Peace, contentment or happiness are states, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Liberation is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting whatever is arising in this moment.

Many seekers believe that liberation is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case.

Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity ‘self’ is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual.

For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
I guess there is some disappointment about there still being negative emotions. But if there is no self that could be 'harmed' by negative feelings and emotions, doesn't a big part of the suffering go away? It seems realistic that there discomfort will still arise though.
Will there not be a bit more joy and peace than before liberation though?
There is no ‘you’ that could accept what is, acceptance can happen, but without a doer, an owner (you). And also, you don’t have a life situation, you don’t have anything, because there is no ‘you’ that could own anything. Life happens, but without ‘you’.

I don't feel I have a lot of resistance to this. It seems so freeing to realize that there is no 'me' that ever could have done anything. There is also some excitement, like: life isn't serious at all, 'I' will just see what happens and where life takes me.
Yes, this may or may not happen. But seeking and non-acceptance are the result of X years of conditionings. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so they GRADUALLY fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.
This brings some relief. That there is not some end point or goal that I have to reach. That it will happen gradually without needing a 'me' to strive for it. No 'self' to actually reach something.
It is not simply about having or not having control, it is about seeing through the unexamined assumption, the belief that there is a ‘you’ that supposedly could control anything.
Not much resistance either. Rather a relief, that there is no 'self' that 'I' am responsible for, that has to be maintained. The realization that maybe life isn't as serious as 'everyone' thinks it is.
- There is no you that could realise anything
- There is no you that could get obsessed, obsession can happen, but nothing (no thing) is doing it, it happens by itself
- Controlling happens, but without you
- You don’t have a life, there is just life
Not a lot of resistance, only a bit of 'sadness' that there is nothing special about 'me'. It is just ego of course, but it does have the desire to be unique, special and loved.
Liberation is not about having a constant or almost constant joy and peace and not having the ¾ of the remaining emotions. It is quite the contrary! Encompassing all emotions, whatever arises in this moment.

After seeing through the self, identification with the I-thought and self-referencing thoughts and stories still arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.
Hmm... maybe there was a bit more hope that there would be more positive emotions. There is something about feeling happy that feels so.. 'right'. As if that is the way that it is supposed to be. So I guess there is some disappointment there.
What I propose to do is to set you some exercises, physical ones, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. We call this direct experience, or the uninterpreted moment. This refers to the data from the sensations themselves, before mind tries to make sense of it and begins to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling. These exercises can help to see what is ‘real’ and what is not.
Sounds great!

So grateful to you for putting in the time, effort and energy to help.

Love, Flora

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4745
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

Postby Vivien » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:40 am

Dear Flora,

OK then, let’s start it.
The first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

What does the word 'I' point to?
What makes this body ‘yours’?
What makes this body ‘you’?


From now on, I will write all questions in blue, please always answer ALL of them. These questions are pointers where to LOOK. Of course, you can also reply to any other parts of my posts if you feel need to.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
floragate
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:53 am

Re: Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

Postby floragate » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:22 am

Hi Vivien!
Hope you're having a good day.
Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

I think a big part of that belief has already dropped away. I think that it is more that I need to take the final step to definitely seeing it, and clearing away my last doubts. So I still believe (a bit) that I am this person, at least definitely in my day to day experience when I am not consciously looking for a self.
What does the word 'I' point to?

The I refers to the body and the mind that is called Flora. It is a label. It especially also points to the 'control' and autonomy that 'I' supposedly have.
What makes this body ‘yours’?
This question brings up one of my confusions about non-duality. 'I' am still feeling the sensations in the body, seeing what the body sees, smelling, touching etc.. So maybe I'm not the one making the effort to make these actions get performed. But the idea that you and I and everything is the same confuses me. Because 'you' and 'I' are still watching this world from a different people.
What makes this body ‘you’?
'I' am still aware of this body. Maybe there is not a 'me' to do anything, but it still feels a bit personal because I am aware of all of the sensations, thoughts and emotions happening 'in' this body. And am still identified with it to some degree.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4745
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:41 am

Dear Flora,
'I' am still aware of this body. Maybe there is not a 'me' to do anything, but it still feels a bit personal because I am aware of all of the sensations, thoughts and emotions happening 'in' this body.
I have a ‘feeling’ that you’re trying to avoid using the word ‘I’, but please correct me if I’m wrong. If you are, then please don’t do that. Don’t try to be careful with the language, systematically avoiding the word ‘I’. If you do that then I’m not able to help you, because I cannot see where you’re at the moment. So please, use the language that feels/sound the TRUEST for you at the moment. This is very important. I need your 100% honesty. Don’t write anything that is not 100% true for you at the moment.
This question brings up one of my confusions about non-duality. 'I' am still feeling the sensations in the body, seeing what the body sees, smelling, touching etc.. So maybe I'm not the one making the effort to make these actions get performed. But the idea that you and I and everything is the same confuses me. Because 'you' and 'I' are still watching this world from a different people.
OK, these are just the content of thoughts. There is a learned intellectual knowledge which is in contrast of the current experiencing. But this can never be grasped or understood by the intellect. This is PRIOR TO thoughts. But this is what we are going to work on; to have a real, actual experience and not just a second-hand intellectual knowledge (which is totally useless by the way :)
The I refers to the body and the mind that is called Flora.
Now we try to find the ‘owner’ of the body.
We are LOOKing for a real ‘I’. Real is something that can be found.

What I want you to do for our examination together, is to try to separate out thoughts from what is ‘real’.

But at first, as an example, let’s try to find Darth Vader from Star Wars.
We’re looking for a real Darth Vader that can be found.

In order to prove that it exists, we have to experience it directly by seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling.

The image projected to the cinema screen is not it.
The poster on the wall about Darth Vader is not it.
The memory in ‘my head’ about Darth Vader is not a proof of its existence.
A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.
A lego figure of Darth Vader is not a real Darth Vader.
A life size wax figure exhibited in a museum is not it.
A twelve-year old boy dressed in a Darth Vader costume is not it.

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

Let's take 'seeing' as a first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?
Do you see a seer?

Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?


Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
floragate
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:53 am

Re: Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

Postby floragate » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:21 pm

Dear Vivien,

I have a ‘feeling’ that you’re trying to avoid using the word ‘I’, but please correct me if I’m wrong. If you are, then please don’t do that. Don’t try to be careful with the language, systematically avoiding the word ‘I’. If you do that then I’m not able to help you, because I cannot see where you’re at the moment. So please, use the language that feels/sound the TRUEST for you at the moment. This is very important. I need your 100% honesty. Don’t write anything that is not 100% true for you at the moment.

I am actually not consciously trying to avoid using the word 'I', but more using it in the way that seems most natural from my experience. When I say for example:'' 'I' am aware of the thought I am having'', it is because it doesn't seem like there is a separate entity being aware of the thought, but it seems like there is just awareness being aware of the thought. But I absolutely agree with you that it is really important to write what is truest to me at this moment.

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

I cannot find an owner of the body. The body just is. It feels like I am the owner of this body, because I feel it from inside, I feel the sensations. But an actual owner is more on ‘thought-level’ and can’t be located.

Let's take 'seeing' as a first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.

Now, can it be found what is seeing them?

A seer of these words cannot be found in Direct Experience. Thought’s content is claiming a lot about there being a seer though.

Do you see a seer?

I do not see a seer.

Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?

I cannot track this thing down. It seems that it is rather ‘seeing’ happening and the awareness of it.


Love,

Flora

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4745
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:34 am

Dear Flora,
I am actually not consciously trying to avoid using the word 'I', but more using it in the way that seems most natural from my experience. When I say for example:'' 'I' am aware of the thought I am having'', it is because it doesn't seem like there is a separate entity being aware of the thought, but it seems like there is just awareness being aware of the thought.
Thank you for clarifying this.
it seems like there is just awareness being aware of the thought.
OK, look closely.

Is there REALLY an ‘awareness’ in the actual experience that is ‘doing’ the aware-ing of thoughts?
Or is ‘awareness being aware of thoughts’ just another thought that is not seen only as a thought, but rather believed?

It feels like I am the owner of this body, because I feel it from inside, I feel the sensations.
This is just another thought believed. We will investigate later on the body.
A seer of these words cannot be found in Direct Experience. Thought’s content is claiming a lot about there being a seer though.
Good looking.
It seems that it is rather ‘seeing’ happening and the awareness of it.
OK, seeing is happening. But is there REALLY a ‘thing’ that is aware of the seeing happening, or there is only seeing happening with a simultaneously arising thought “awareness is aware of the seeing”?

Let’s have a deeper look on thoughts. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions:

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?


Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
floragate
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:53 am

Re: Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

Postby floragate » Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:09 pm

Hi Vivien,

Could I take one more day to answer the questions? I am having a pretty hard time giving clear answers yet, and I don't want to give answers just for the sake of giving them. I hope its ok!

Love,

Flora

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4745
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:15 pm

Dear Flora,

Of course, take your time.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
floragate
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:53 am

Re: Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

Postby floragate » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:34 pm

Dear Vivien,
Where thoughts come from?
They seem to arise out of nowhere. There are SO many of them. It seems impossible to get a 'grip' on them.
Where are they going?
They seem to go back into that 'nowhere'. If it seems that the thought stays longer, it is just a thought about a though itself.
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
No, I can't.
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
It seems that I cannot predict this.
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
It seems that I have no choice in this whatsoever.
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
I cannot actually find this 'I'. But still, these thoughts feel so personal, even though it seems technically impossible to me that there is a 'me' that actually created. I can't find this 'I', but don't feel sure enough to say with absolute certainty that I don't make thoughts.
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
There are so many thoughts happening. I am pretty sure that at least the majority of them aren't made by me.
What is the thinker of thoughts?
I don't know what the thinker of thoughts is. I think that it is rather a machine than an actual thinker.
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought
I think that the 'I' that thinks is also a thought. I can't find the supposed self that creates thoughts anywhere.

Love,

Flora

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4745
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

Postby Vivien » Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:47 am

Dear Flora,
They seem to go back into that 'nowhere'. If it seems that the thought stays longer, it is just a thought about a though itself.
Good observation.
Vivien: Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Flora: I cannot actually find this 'I'. But still, these thoughts feel so personal, even though it seems technically impossible to me that there is a 'me' that actually created. I can't find this 'I', but don't feel sure enough to say with absolute certainty that I don't make thoughts.
“Don't feel sure enough to say with absolute certainty that I don't make thoughts.” – could it be that this is just the content of an arising thought that is not seen only as a thought but rather believed?

So in the actual experience the ‘I’ cannot be found other than a thought. But after seeing this, thoughts come up interpreting the experiencing and suggesting: “don't feel sure enough to say with absolute certainty that I don't make thoughts.”

Thoughts always try to interpret and give meaning to whatever arises in this moment. But just because this happens it doesn’t mean that this is actually the case (what thoughts suggest). But don’t believe me, look!

“These thoughts feel so personal” – it SEEMS to be personal. But how is it known that thoughts are personal?

Thoughts SEEM to be personal, because all revolve around a supposed entity ‘me’. When these thoughts are believed and not seen for what they are – simply thoughts arising – then associated emotions can emerge. The emotions that are felt as pure sensations in the body are welded together with the thought ‘I’ and my story. BUMMM!!! The illusion of ‘me’ is created. Can you see this?
There are so many thoughts happening. I am pretty sure that at least the majority of them aren't made by me.
How is this known that the majority of them aren’t made by an entity, ‘you’?
LOOK closely. How does this ‘thing’ would create thoughts?

Is there infinite number of thoughts somewhere outside of the current experience waiting for ‘you’ to select from?

I think that the 'I' that thinks is also a thought. I can't find the supposed self that creates thoughts anywhere.
“I think that the ‘I” that thinks is also a thought” – OK, don’t just think about it, but look. Check whether it is really the case.

Can an ‘I’ be found right here, right now other than a thought?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
floragate
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:53 am

Re: Would Vivien be available to be my guide?

Postby floragate » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:05 pm

Hi Vivien,
“Don't feel sure enough to say with absolute certainty that I don't make thoughts.” – could it be that this is just the content of an arising thought that is not seen only as a thought but rather believed?
I've been looking at this a lot. It is just really new to me giving answers from Direct Experience. Because I shouldn't be *thinking* about it, I find it hard to know an answer. But what is suggested here seems to be the case.
“These thoughts feel so personal” – it SEEMS to be personal. But how is it known that thoughts are personal?
I don't know what is personal about thoughts. They arise and disappear again. They come in huge amounts, and it is impossible to get a grip on them. But trying to get a grip on thoughts, and observing thoughts, also seems a thought. Thoughts about thoughts. I hope you understand what I mean.
How is this known that the majority of them aren’t made by an entity, ‘you’?
Is has been observed that thoughts arise out of nowhere. When this is realized, a thought saying 'hey, I didn't create this' arises.
LOOK closely. How does this ‘thing’ would create thoughts
Absolutely amazing question. Thinking seems to be a process happening by itself. I don't know how an 'I' would interfere in the making of thoughts.
Is there infinite number of thoughts somewhere outside of the current experience waiting for ‘you’ to select from?
No there is not. It is just happening. Otherwise I would obviously choose to have happy thoughts.
Can an ‘I’ be found right here, right now other than a thought?
This I cannot be found right here, right now
Can you see this?
I can see the illusion happening. Not very clear though, a bit 'foggy'.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests