Looking for a guide.

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humdrum
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Looking for a guide.

Postby humdrum » Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:45 pm

Hi,

You can call me Rick. Currently employed as a musician and teacher.
Looking for a guide, to break through the "I" conditioning.
Spiritual history: A religious "cult" for about 25 years. Meditation for the last 7 years. Holosync is mainly the tool used for Meditation. Strong interest in Zen, Buddhism, Taoism.
There have been many insights into illusion of "I" but no certainty that it has been fully dealt with. Read your book the Gate Crashers and have used your app with the 300 guiding stories.
"When the student is ready the master will appear" sums up a history of the journey thus far. The journey led to your book and app and now your website.
There certainly is a willingness to follow all your protocols and get the show on the road, so to speak.

Look forward to hearing from you and thank you for being here and listening.

Rick

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Petrus
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Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby Petrus » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:06 pm

Hi Rick,

If you want I can be your guide.

Petrus

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humdrum
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Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby humdrum » Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:54 pm

Thanks for replying.

There is definite excitement to get started.

Please inform as to the next step.

Rick (humdrum)

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Petrus
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Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby Petrus » Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:43 am

Hi Rick,
There is definite excitement to get started.
It is very good to hear that.

Ok, let us get started:

The main thing we do here is pointing to Direct Experience, so we are going to look at what IS.
The guiding will help you to see through the illusion of a separate self.

Some groundrules:
1. Write from experience, not speculation.
2. Be 100% honest. So a wrong honest answer is better than a good answer you lied about.
3. Post regularly !
4. Put aside all other teachings (satsangs!), philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/
6. Could you learn the quote function? http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

If you confirm you have read the above we can start.

I am Dutch but in the Western Indonesian Timezone (GMT+8), what is yours?

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
Please answer these questions in detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

Petrus

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humdrum
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Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby humdrum » Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:36 am

I am Dutch but in the Western Indonesian Timezone (GMT+8), what is yours?


Ans-Central Time Zone, Minnesota

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

Ans-There has been a search for enlightenment, but the more the search goes on the less there is known. In the past the description used was each moment of existence would be the most important moment. There would be no past, and no future only now. At this stage it appears that losing the conditioned “I” is the first very important step. Stepping into the unknown comes to mind as it definitely would be a step into an area, where there is no previous knowledge. Currently it is challenging to imagine fully the existence with no “I” monitoring all activities. There have been glimpses of it but they are fleeting.

How will life change?

Ans-For some reason these questions are tough for me. Maybe some background will help you in your directions. Involvement in a Psuedo-Religious sect strongly emphasized that each individual is a spiritual being. During training I recall listening to a tape where the leader of this cult had to decide if we were all a whole or did the cosmology consist of individual beings separate from others etc. He decided that we are not all one homogenous entity but separate spiritual beings. In recent meditations this idea is come into disrepute. In working on a meditation where one asks “Who am I” and also “Who am I not” it became suddenly clear there is no Who. I could no longer find a “who” in seeing an answer to the question. A bit later I found the book Gate Crashers and this seemed to parallel exactly the road I was on. Using some of the ideas from GCers in meditation solidified the concept of no “I” even more.
How will life change? Hopefully there will be a complete break with duality, that cause and effect will lose some of its importance. There will no longer be the idea that I am the source of all that occurs and that there will be comfortable jump into the flow of life, allowing life to happen. In writing this it appears the answers are for the next question (How will you change?) and it appears that Life and I are one in the same. Honestly at this stage it is not life that should change but my response to it needs to change. Being a musician harmony in life is important and hopefully there will be more of it. When saying more of it, by that is meant I won’t have more harmony I will be harmony. This can be said of all virtues. Virtues won’t be something to be used or acquired they will be what I am. I will be the virtues. Hopefully there will be an awakening. There will be no more snoozing.

An aside: The difficulty here is you want me to articulate what I expect to receive from these investigations, yet how can one know? If I knew what to expect there would be no need to continue as I would be there. Does that make any sense?

Let me just say there is a strong belief that this is the correct path for me to be on and however it goes is how it goes and there is a strong willingness to experience it. Apologies for jumping around with the questioning. Hopefully there will be more coherence in the answers given.

There is an understanding that other teachings and philosophies need to be set aside and that will be done. Will meditation have to be halted as well?

Thank you very much for willing to be a guide. Hopefully this will be a rewarding experience for both of us.

Rick

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Petrus
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Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby Petrus » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:32 am

Hi Rick,
The difficulty here is you want me to articulate what I expect to receive from these investigations, yet how can one know? If I knew what to expect there would be no need to continue as I would be there.
Good point. You cant know how it will be.
But every expectation is in the way of seeing what is.
Many seekers believe that liberation is a completely different state that they are currently having, with special qualities like bliss and peace. It is a good idea to deal with these before hand.
If you dont have expectations: all the better!
At this stage it appears that losing the conditioned “I” is the first very important step.
...Hopefully there will be a complete break with duality, that cause and effect will lose some of its importance.
This guiding will focus on one area only. That is to realise that 'I', the separate self or person that you've believed yourself to be all along is a fabrication created from thought. That 'I' or 'me' is merely a concept and non-existent in reality.
You will not lose an "I". You will be seeing it for what it is.
Being a musician harmony in life is important and hopefully there will be more of it. When saying more of it, by that is meant I won’t have more harmony I will be harmony.
Harmony is a state like bliss or peace, and no states are permanent, they are subject to change.
Liberation is not about becoming perfect and not having uncomfortable feelings any more.
It is about seeing what is.
There is an understanding that other teachings and philosophies need to be set aside and that will be done. Will meditation have to be halted as well?
As long as it does not interfere with this dialogue, you can do what you want. The advise is to make clear this will not be a discussion about what is known from other disciplines.
We start anew, from what is, not from what is known.

Did you see this article: http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ ?
If not maybe you can read it now? And comment on it?

Regards, Petrus

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humdrum
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Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby humdrum » Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:04 pm

Petrus,

Thank you for replying and your insights.

Reading the article you referenced and commenting on it: Direct Experience, that is what I am hoping to achieve. To see an object and to see just the object and not use Rick’s Thought Bank to know what is seen. I have been looking at individual thoughts in meditation trying to ascertain their source to no avail. I try looking behind the thoughts to find the “thinker” and I cannot find it. In looking at this term Direct Experience today I spotted a tendency to try to impress others how knowledgeable “I” was, when it dawned that this has nothing to do with me. That is the illusory “I” trying to be impressive. Before starting this process with you I had already come to see that “Rick”, “self”, “I” were simply labels and have no real basis in reality. This realization had come mainly in using techniques I had seen in the book Gate Crashers and the App. There have been insights into the no self and today was another one. It is ironic that you require 100% honesty, and I am trying my best to be faithful to that, yet I have this chain of dishonesty around my neck called “Rick”. I have been trying to separate out from that “Rick” guy for some time now.

Objectively there is an understanding of there is Experience, but there is no Experiencer, subjectively that has not been realized 100%, but it is being chipped away at, which is exciting. When I examine thoughts I am learning more and more that I do not own these thoughts. They are not my thoughts, they are just thoughts. It us when ownership steps in that trouble begins. It is when this mythical “I” takes ownership of these thoughts that is the road to ruin.
Is it possible there is just experience, with no separate experiencer?
I first ran across this idea in listening to Alan Watts, when he said something to the effect there is no separation between the Subject and the Object. I struggled with even understanding what he was trying to get at then, but now it is seen that it cannot be any other way.

Thanks for directing me to the data on Direct Experience. It all seemed very familiar to me. It is seeing something with no mind coming between the experience. It is being the experience. I like that a lot.

That Rick guy

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Petrus
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Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby Petrus » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:01 am

Hi Rick,
Reading the article you referenced and commenting on it: Direct Experience, that is what I am hoping to achieve. To see an object and to see just the object and not use Rick’s Thought Bank to know what is seen.
What seems so attractive in seeing it without Rick's Thought Bank?
What exactly has this preference?
I try looking behind the thoughts to find the “thinker” and I cannot find it.
What did you find instead?
It is ironic that you require 100% honesty, and I am trying my best to be faithful to that, yet I have this chain of dishonesty around my neck called “Rick”. I have been trying to separate out from that “Rick” guy for some time now.
Haha, you can leave Rick in peace. What is this guy made of other then thoughts?
But what is it that is trying to separate out? Another Rick? Rick2?
Objectively there is an understanding of there is Experience, but there is no Experiencer, subjectively that has not been realized 100%, but it is being chipped away at, which is exciting.
Sorry, I dont fully understand this. Can you put it in other words?
It is when this mythical “I” takes ownership of these thoughts that is the road to ruin.
How does this "I" does take ownership?
What exactly is this "I"?
...

I have a couple of sets of questions to explore further.
Here is the first set about the body:

The body that appears here right now, is it 'you'?
Do you have control over your body?
Does the body see, hear, feel etc?
Are you a body with a mind? A mind in a body?
Would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

Is the time that I answer now convenient for you?
I hope you can sleep after seeing all that questions, haha.

Warm regards, Petrus

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humdrum
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Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby humdrum » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:46 am

Petrus,

Thanks for replying. You have given much to ponder. It is 10:44pm my time and bedtime is nigh. I will do my best to answer all your questions but it will have to be in the morning of the 29th.

Rick

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Petrus
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Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby Petrus » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:49 am

Take your time. No need to rush.

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humdrum
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Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby humdrum » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:04 am

Petrus,

You have given a lot for me to work on. I have finished some of it, but it will be a bit more time before I answer all your queries.

Rick

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Petrus
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Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby Petrus » Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:15 am

You have given a lot for me to work on. I have finished some of it, but it will be a bit more time before I answer all your queries.
It really is ok you take your time. I will notice you replied, when you do.

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Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby humdrum » Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:59 am

Mr P.

Phew we are getting into the thick of it now!
What seems so attractive in seeing it without Rick's Thought Bank?
Rick’s Thought Bank is based on a lie that there is an individual self known as Rick. There is cosmic consciousness and then there is self consciousness. Using the word lie might be too strong when what is occurring is cosmic consciousness is possibly a higher level of awareness than self consciousness. In the Bible Adam and Eve ate from the tree of “knowledge” and became aware of themselves as separate beings. They became self conscious. One could say they went from Eden to Hell in one bite. It has dawned that all these studies I have participated in to find “myself” have only served to reinforce the self.
What exactly has this preference?
The million dollar question! The first thought was I have no idea. One could conclude that it is my idea of preference, but how can that be when there is no me? How can God, Tao, whatever you want to call the supreme consciousness have a consciousness of a self? “The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao”. The Rick that can be named is not the eternal Rick. There is just being. There is not being Rick or being a self or anything…there is just being.
What did you find instead?
It is a blank. It is like John Locke’s tabla rasa. Nothing there to find. It is just thinking and the source of the thoughts is irrelevant.
Haha, you can leave Rick in peace. What is this guy made of other then thoughts?
Leaving Rick in peace has a nice sound to it. :-) It is not that Rick is a bad story, after all it is just a story. Various sensations and emotions are part of this Rick guys story, with the attendant thoughts about these sensations and emotions. There is no “I” that needs to interpret them however.
But what is it that is trying to separate out? Another Rick? Rick2?
There is a reasonable certainty that Rick is nothing more than a label, a name tag. The name Rick was given to me by parents and it has been conditioned and conditioned into existence. There has been resentment as well as agreement with that conditioning. All through life there is conditioning from various sectors of life and it has been owned by Rick. Big mistake as there is no Rick, self, ego, whatever you want to call it. There is no separating out from conditioning there is only seeing it for what it is. It is like thoughts, emotions, sensations can really only be seen for what they are. One does not need to own them to experience them. One does not need to own a beingness to experience it.
Objectively there is an understanding of there is Experience, but there is no Experiencer, subjectively that has not been realized 100%, but it is being chipped away at, which is exciting.

Sorry, I dont fully understand this. Can you put it in other words?
Sorry for the confusion. I can see how what was written is not entirely understandable. Objective reality is what is experience externally from one. Subjective reality is what is experienced internally in the mind. So someone cannot say that something is true (which is objective to the receiver of that statement), until it is looked at subjectively and found to be true for the receiver of the statement. If it isn’t true for you then it is not true. This was a popular saying in the cult that I was in, which as you may know is basically what the Buddha said about anything he said. He wanted you to thoroughly inspect anything he said to find the truth in what he said. Until that was done the truth or falsity of what another says cannot be known. I have read that the experiencer and the experience are not separate but are in fact one. When I first saw this it did not entirely make sense to me. It collided with English grammar, conditioning. There is a subject, a verb and an object. There is an Experiencer, who experiences an Object. However all that exists is the experience. Experiencing the experience. There does not have to be an experiencer. If there is no dualism there is only experiencing. There is an understanding of how there can be no experiencer. One can understand a virtue and try to do it, but until one IS the virtue, one is trying to be a virtue and not being the virtue.
How does this "I" does take ownership?
The “I” being referred to is the false I that this process is trying to bring to light. I know/suspect that the ownership of an “I” is an illusion.

An ASIDE: Petrus I have just gotten back to answering your questions. Just to let you know why I have not responded sooner. There was a point since our last interaction when things were really happening on this no self front. The realizations were coming fast and furious. Then it went dead. There would be attempts to meditate on your questions and it was just nothing happening. Then there a point of pushing to get back into the investigations of LU and it was slow. There has been difficulty trying to answer the questions that you put forth. It was like confusion reigned supreme. The looking was not producing much. Then I turned to simply reading from the exercises on the LU app. Today I watch some of the videos on the website. There is not a real serious concern about what has been happening, and there is no desire to give up on the process, but I thought it worth mentioning to you. One thing I would like to mention is that there is a better understanding of doing away with all past ideas and just look. What is coming up is a difficulty in trying to put into words what is seen without relying on past concepts and ideas that have been encountered. It seems like all these past ideas, ideologies etc continue to support the concept of self.
What exactly is this “I”?
The accumulation of all thoughts that deal with self. The accumulation and misownership of sensations, emotions etc. You know what is coming up in answer to this question is I have no idea.
The body that appears here right now, is it 'you’?
The first answer that pops up is of course not. It is simply a body.
Do you have control over your body?
This is an interesting question as control has been so important in this life. For the first time there is looking at the idea of control as not necessarily such a good thing. In fact more and more it seems that control is well, out of control! Life just happens and it will continue quite nicely without “my” interference. It is becoming more and more of a reality that “my” could not possibly control aspects of life. It is the old say “Go with the flow”
Does the body see, hear, feel etc?
Well the body has organs that have the capacity to see, hear, feel etc so the answer to the question is yes.
Are you a body with a mind? A mind in a body?
The first thing that came to mind is this is a trick question. It is not possible to be me that has a body with a mind as there is not a me. I could not be a mind in a body as there is no I. It makes no difference if it is a body with a mind or a mind in a body. Whatever that arrangement is, it is what it is.
Would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?
First response, no it is not fair. :-) There is a body sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now, however there is no “you” in the picture.
Is the time that I answer now convenient for you?
Is it better that we are on line at the same time so there is more of an instantaneous, Q&A? The time you are on is a bit late for me but if it is important that we work at the same time then I will make it work.

There was no going back and proofreading these responses to your questions. Hopefully it is not too confusing. At least from my end progress is being made. Thanks again.

R.

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Petrus
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Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby Petrus » Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:29 am

Hi Rick,

I almost was going to ask you if you were writing a book, haha. But you answered before I did.
You are doing very good. And I like your humour.
You were starting answering from knowledge. I could quote some, but I think you know what I mean.
But the notion there being no separate self is known for you too.

Then you wrote this ASIDE:
One thing I would like to mention is that there is a better understanding of doing away with all past ideas and just look. What is coming up is a difficulty in trying to put into words what is seen without relying on past concepts and ideas that have been encountered. It seems like all these past ideas, ideologies etc continue to support the concept of self.
Very good you see this. You are guiding yourself!
The realizations were coming fast and furious. Then it went dead. There would be attempts to meditate on your questions and it was just nothing happening.
Then it went dead, haha. Very good! Thats where we looking for. The stories end in silence. Not convenient ofcourse when you want to do something. Like answering questions from me.
...

So let us skip all the knowledge for a moment and concentrate on Direct Experience for now.
Maybe later I will come back on some of the issues we were discussing here, they served their purpose for now, but its good to go into looking only.
Does the body see, hear, feel etc?
Well the body has organs that have the capacity to see, hear, feel etc so the answer to the question is yes.
In Direct Experience do you have organs? How do you perceive them?

Here are some additional questions about the body:
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or a volume?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in this actual experience?

Warm regards, Petrus

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Petrus
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Re: Looking for a guide.

Postby Petrus » Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:40 am

I forgot to answer about the time. It is ok as we do it till now. It is good to know your waking time. We are about on the other side of the planet.


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