Request for a guide

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IanR
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Request for a guide

Postby IanR » Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:19 am

Hi,
I’ve been reading continuously the past few days and having a good look as recommended. I think I’ve seen a few things that seem to get deeper each day, but it flips backwards and forwards.
I would be grateful for guidance with the full process from the start.
Thanks.

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IanR
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Re: Request for a guide

Postby IanR » Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:04 am

This is where I currently am:
A few weeks ago I made a strong intent to hit stream entry. I wanted to end my suffering. I started meditating daily, had all the experiences again and then hit depression and feeling like crap which was the usual pattern.
Then I came across Ciaran Healy’s blog, articles and ruthlesstruth and from there to this website. From that I think I have seen no-self and that this has been deepening the last couple of days.
First I saw the stream of thoughts and sensations. It’s like they stack on top of each other like wooden blocks, one after the other. So a sensation will come say, then a thought, then another sensation, one after the other. If I don’t engage too much with each one they just flow on by themselves.
Then I saw a background frequency thing, not really sure what this is. It seems more consistant and stable than a sensation or a thought, like it can stick around for longer. It might even be continuous as I can sense it with thoughts and sensations travelling over the top of it. If the thoughts or sensations are too strong then I will lose track of it, so I am not sure if it is continuous or not. When I first started looking for no-self a thought would scream out “what’s that then!” and point to the field. But after examining the field it didn’t really seem to do anything, just sit there. It’s some sort of awareness but there is another layer of awareness above it too. Eh.
Yesterday I read some more and decided to sit down and get a really good look at this. I thought about unrequited love, which I am really good at (bad at, haha). It’s like when you meet someone for the first time, you are really impressed with them, then you go away and make up all these stories about them, like going out to dinner with them, what they would be like, what you would do, how they would react. All these thoughts and emotions. Then you meet them again later and they are nothing like what you imagined, because the thought them in your mind isn’t actually them.
It’s the same with thoughts about self, if you have a thought about going to the shop, like you have an image of yourself walking to the shop, that’s not you. You are still sitting on the couch. The same with the past, you remember going to the shop last week, that’s not you, you’re still on the couch. It’s may seem a bit more subtle but it the same with thoughts in the present, “I’m sitting on the couch”, no, you have an image in your head of you sitting on the couch, that’s just a image and a thought. You are sitting on the couch, you can feel the couch under your legs, you can brush the crumbs off you shirt.
That’s about where I’m at. I’ve been super chilled yesterday and today. Still have the old anxieties and anger come up, but they seem dialled down too, plus they get short circuited if I stop and look at them.
Still keen to fill in all the corners with the full process, if that’s possible.

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Petrus
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Re: Request for a guide

Postby Petrus » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:57 am

Hi Ian,

It seems you have been starting the work already yourself!

I am happy to be your guide.

The main thing we do here is pointing to Direct Experience, so we are going to look at what IS.
The guiding will help you to see through the illusion of a separate self.

Here a few groundrules:
1. Write from experience, not speculation.
2. Be 100% honest. So a wrong honest answer is better than a good answer you lied about.
3. Post regularly.
4. Put aside all other teachings (satsangs!), philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
5. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

If you confirm you have read the above we can start.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
Please answer these questions in detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

Petrus

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IanR
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Re: Request for a guide

Postby IanR » Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:22 am

Hi Petrus,

Thanks for doing this. I''ve read the ground rules and will try to follow them as closely as possible.

I'll type something up regarding my expectations and post it shortly.

Thanks,

Ian

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Re: Request for a guide

Postby Petrus » Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:38 am

Ok Ian, take your time...
What reminds me: I am in the Western Indonesian Timezone (GMT+8), what is yours?

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Re: Request for a guide

Postby IanR » Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:40 am

Hey, i'm in Australian Eastern, so there is probably only a couple of hours different. I'm on a smart phone on the weekends, so i'm just wondering about the logoff thing. See what happens.

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Re: Request for a guide

Postby Petrus » Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:52 am

The "logoff thing"?
For Libertation Unleashedon my smart phone I use Tapatalk. Once setup works like a charm.

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Re: Request for a guide

Postby IanR » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:05 am

Yeah, i read that the forum times you out so you should type on a word processor and cut and paste in. It's cool, i'm at a PC now...

Expectations: I originally thought it would be like winning the lotto. Fire works going off, having all my Christmas's at once, a big light show with me and everyone being happy and eating party food. Now i don't know...i guess i'll settle for gradually being aware of and stripping away all the crappy things in my life and all the unconscious patterns that end up hurting the people around me. i'm hoping it'll make me a better person. Maybe i just want to be able to get through the rest of my life without causing too much trouble or having to deal with others trouble. i guess i saw it as a fix all, like i would be able to slap a band-aid on my life and say done.
Life Change: i was hoping it would bring out all the heaven in the world, make all the rosy things appear and everything would be cool. i would be at peace with my environment, make the right decisions regarding it and other people. How will it change...life will change into an unfolding direct experience of whatever is unfolding, as opposed to what it currently is which is a dreading and anxiety about what is around the corner and what has happened before.
You change: I'm hoping it will bring about an end to my suffering and the suffering i cause in others. I'm hoping i'll be able to see clearly what i should be doing with my time and energy. how will be different, i'm hoping it will be an upgrade, bigger, better, more capable
...check out all the hopes and dreams. i'll probably just wake up and realise i'm in my underwear on the lounge watching cartoons at forty.
Different: more acceptance of what is going on, more able to let things slide, being better at relating with others, more open and honest. there won't be a filter over everything i do and everything that happens.
how deluded is that, I feel kinda stupid writing this out, none of it is going to happen, i mean the pipe dream stuff...

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Re: Request for a guide

Postby Petrus » Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:36 am

Hi Ian,
...Still have the old anxieties and anger come up, but they seem dialled down too, plus they get short circuited if I stop and look at them...
Yes, that is the way to deal with anxieties, look them in the face!
What kind of anxieties are they? Are they in the body only? Or is it fear for something?

I have the noble task to demolish all your expectations, but I think you are doing a good job yourself.
In any case I like your sense of humor!
i'm hoping it'll make me a better person.
That will not be the case. In stead of that you will able to see you are not a person. How about that?
life will change into an unfolding direct experience of whatever is unfolding, as opposed to what it currently is which is a dreading and anxiety about what is around the corner and what has happened before.
Life already is unfolding itself effortlessly, including this anxieties and dreading.
I'm hoping it will bring about an end to my suffering and the suffering i cause in others.
So what suffering is that?
And what are you causing others?
more acceptance of what is going on, more able to let things slide, being better at relating with others, more open and honest.
Maybe these things are going to happen, but then again, maybe not. But a big chance you won't mind in either case.
there won't be a filter over everything i do and everything that happens.
What kind of filter you are having now?
how deluded is that, I feel kinda stupid writing this out, none of it is going to happen, i mean the pipe dream stuff...
Haha, you dont have to feel stupid, your pipe dream is moderate in comparison with others...

By the way, if you use the quote function it will be more easy to see the difference between what you did write and what I wrote.

Petrus

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Re: Request for a guide

Postby IanR » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:27 am

After googling, I’m in Australia NSW GMT+11.

Thank you for undertaking his noble task. I hope I am honest enough to present my expectations for demolishing…you may commence your bombing run!
What kind of anxieties are they? Are they in the body only? Or is it fear for something?
The main anxieties are both in the body and in the thoughts. The body is either a tensing, which I basically keep looking at until I get bored or one of us gives up, or an uncomfortable vibration frequency thing, with thoughts of disgust attached. I have an aversion to hearing sounds when I’m trying to relax. I’ll hear something and tense up and get upset because I don’t want to hear it. I’m getting better at just hearing the sound and then seeing exactly where the sound ends, and not doubling up on any sufferring.
There is a lot of fear at the moment. Uncertainty about what will happen in my life, like with jobs, accommodation and what will happen in the future. There is indecision, so I’m having trouble mapping out a plan.
In stead of that you will able to see you are not a person. How about that?
Non-personhood…I’m having trouble with this. I could get used to no-self, but no person has a bit of a different sound to it. Like non-existance, at all…No-person…
Life already is unfolding itself effortlessly, including this anxieties and dreading.
I can sit in the flow and just let it flow around me, that’s cool, I just need to remember there is always that option. I went for a walk yesterday in the bush. I was able to get into the seeing only, like there wasn’t any thought adding an interpretation to things, the vision was very clear. That method of seeing would hold for a few seconds. Then the thoughts would start again. It would jump backa and forwards between these two states while I was walking. It’s funny because any troubles were just in the thoughts, but when I was seeing there was no past or future to be worried about.
I just read that this clear state might actually be a distraction to seeing no-self. So I’m going to try to just let it sit there together with whatever thoughts come up.
There is a lot of social dread, like I’m not living up to social expectations regarding relationships and being successful and building a life for myself. Then I get fed up with trying to do the right thing regarding this, and then not being able to actually do anything, I get frustrated and then say or act in a crappy way to my parents and work manager.
What kind of filter you are having now?
The filter is the constant stream of thoughts. I’m contrasting it with the clear seeing things that is going on. Previously I would only really get this clear seeing while meditating, now it seems to spontaneously come up during the day, I just have to look out and I’ll see it. When thoughts come they colour everything I see, like I’ll see something, have a negative thought and then the perception of what I saw will be coloured by the thought. But when I’m seeing clearly everything is cool.

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Re: Request for a guide

Postby Petrus » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:25 am

Hi Ian,
Non-personhood…I’m having trouble with this. I could get used to no-self, but no person has a bit of a different sound to it. Like non-existance, at all…No-person…
What is for you the difference between no-person or no-self?
Is the idea person maybe more connected to the idea of body?
What is this self or "I"? Is it the body? Is it the mind? Both?
Did you ever try to locate it?
I was able to get into the seeing only, like there wasn’t any thought adding an interpretation to things, the vision was very clear. That method of seeing would hold for a few seconds. Then the thoughts would start again. It would jump backa and forwards between these two states while I was walking. It’s funny because any troubles were just in the thoughts, but when I was seeing there was no past or future to be worried about.
So it is clear to you the problem is in the thinking?
But what makes thinking to a problem you think?
Do you choose what to think?
Do you control your thoughts?
I just read that this clear state might actually be a distraction to seeing no-self.
Where did you read that?
I would say enjoy the clear state, but keep in mind to experience that is not realising no-self.
There is a lot of fear at the moment. Uncertainty about what will happen in my life, like with jobs, accommodation and what will happen in the future. There is indecision, so I’m having trouble mapping out a plan.
So it is fear for the future?
Do you think it is possible to make a plan?
Do you think you are in control of your life?
Life is just happening, dont you think?

You are doing great!
Petrus.

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Re: Request for a guide

Postby IanR » Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:02 am

21/10/14

Hope this isn't too rambly...
What is for you the difference between no-person or no-self?
Is the idea person maybe more connected to the idea of body?
What is this self or "I"? Is it the body? Is it the mind? Both?
Did you ever try to locate it?
No-person has more of a social aspect, like not a person in regards to other people. This seems to say that the relationship to other people is different to what is commonly thought. If there is no person in me, or I am not a person, then how do I interact with other non-person people. Are they there (that was weird). No-self says to me there is no decider, but the process is still there, body reactions, thoughts, things still happen. No-persons sounds like a complete absence, no-self, no body, no reactions, no thoughts.
Yes, person is like the form that is here, this collected form is a person, you can slap your thighs and make a sound, here it is.


I’m sitting here and there is an intent to go make a coffee. This just occurred to me…it might be from a stimulus in the body, like the body feels an absence of caffeine, then it indicates it wants a drink. Then the thought comes “I’m going to make a coffee”, just like I’m talking to someone next to me. Then there is an image of me going to the kitchen and making one. I get up, don’t’ really have nay more thoughts and watch myself make a coffee and drink it. On automatic. The initial thought is like a model diorama, it has a little me going to a model of the kitchen. Sometimes I’ll have a thought while I’m doing something and the model me is the same size as, and matches, my body. Not sure if I can explain this right. The thought fills up up whole body, like it’s not a little model in the diorama, “I’m making a coffee” and the thought is an image matched up with what is happening with the body in that moment.
I’ve been trying to locate it. I can feel the impulse to do something, like get out of bed, the feeling, I hear the thought in my head, “you should get out of bed”, I can see an image of the diorama me getting out of bed, then I wait, then the get out of bed movements trigger. None of these things by themselves get me out of bed, it’s like they all conspire, one after the other, to get me up. But at any time each one can deny responsibility for the actual act.

2.
So it is clear to you the problem is in the thinking?
But what makes thinking to a problem you think?
Do you choose what to think?
Do you control your thoughts?
Yes, I can see that clearly now.
Thinking is a problem because it never resolves how you think it should. It doesn’t seem to be able to keep up with reality, so I’ll have the thought “go get a coffee”, but on the way I’ll bump into somebody, spill the drink, say hello to someone else, get distracted. I can’t map the whole of reality with a thought, but I seemingly keep trying to, very annoying.
I ran some experiements. If I choose what to think I should be able to choose what to think next. This is funny because it actually makes my mind go blank…haha. “Choose what to think next!”…nothing…
The closest I seem to get is choosing what subject to think about. I‘m intersested in surfing, so thoughts about surfing come up, but where did the original thought to get into surfing come from…I don’t know, but now I have surfing thoughts. If I read about, watch others and do it myself, then I’ll have some “a-ha” light bulb thoughts about surfing “if you shift your weight at this point you’ll make a turn”, but I didn’t know before hand to think that thought. If I knew I was going to think that thought before hand I would already know that information before the thought…but did I just think that thought because I read about it or watched someone else do it?...that’s confusing.
3.
Where did you read that?
I would say enjoy the clear state, but keep in mind to experience that is not realising no-self.
I read about it on ruthlesstruth fourm. I might stop reading other peoples reports for a little, cool.
So it is fear for the future?
Do you think it is possible to make a plan?
Do you think you are in control of your life?
Life is just happening, dont you think?
Yes, it’s fear for the future.
In the conventional sense, yes I think it’s possible to make a plan. Or maybe it just unflolds from stimuli. Like I found a pamphlet on taking a cruise, now I’m thinking about taking a holiday. Eh, don’t know anymore.
There are definitely things I am not in control of, like my heartbeat, breathing while asleep, aches and pains in the body. So this says there are things that are automatic. It feels like I can take control of my breathing while awake, take a deep breath, hold it in…or it can run on automatic if I’m doing something else…but where the decision comes from I don’t know. I noticed that I can do something and then after the action comes a thought for the justification of that action, that’s kinda funny.
Life is happening…but just happening, that’s a bit scary. I watch people now from far away. They act like ants, going here and there, doing this and that, cities go up around them. If I sit and watch it just rolls on, continually…but what my role is in it I not sure.

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Re: Request for a guide

Postby IanR » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:55 am

Edited for easier reading:

Hope this isn't too rambly...
What is for you the difference between no-person or no-self?
Is the idea person maybe more connected to the idea of body?
What is this self or "I"? Is it the body? Is it the mind? Both?
Did you ever try to locate it?
No-person has more of a social aspect, like not a person in regards to other people. This seems to say that the relationship to other people is different to what is commonly thought. If there is no person in me, or I am not a person, then how do I interact with other non-person people. Are they there? (that was weird).

No-self says to me there is no decider, but the process is still there, body reactions, thoughts, things still happen.

No-persons sounds like a complete absence, no-self, no body, no reactions, no thoughts.

Yes, person is like the form that is here, this collected form is a person, you can slap your thighs and make a sound, here it is.

I’m sitting here and there is an intent to go make a coffee. This just occurred to me…it might be from a stimulus in the body, like the body feels an absence of caffeine, then it indicates it wants a drink. The thought comes “I’m going to make a coffee”, just like I’m talking to someone next to me. Then there is an image of me going to the kitchen and making one. I get up, don’t really have any more thoughts and watch myself make a coffee and drink it. On automatic.

The initial thought is like a model diorama, it has a little me going to a model of the kitchen. Sometimes I’ll have a thought while I’m doing something and the model me is the same size as and matches with my body. Not sure if I can explain this right. The thought fills up up whole body, like it’s not a little model in the diorama, the thought is an image matched up with what is happening with the body in that moment.

I’ve been trying to locate it. I can feel the impulse to do something, like get out of bed. I hear the thought in my head, “you should get out of bed”, I can see an image of the diorama me getting out of bed. I wait, then the get out of bed movements trigger.

None of these things by themselves get me out of bed, it’s like they all conspire one after the other to get me up. But at any time each one can deny responsibility for the actual act.
So it is clear to you the problem is in the thinking?
But what makes thinking to a problem you think?
Do you choose what to think?
Do you control your thoughts?
Yes, I can see that clearly now.

Thinking is a problem because it never resolves how you think it should. It doesn’t seem to be able to keep up with reality, so I’ll have the thought “go get a coffee”, but on the way I’ll bump into somebody, spill the drink, say hello to someone else, get distracted. I can’t map the whole of reality with a thought, but I seemingly keep trying to, very annoying.

I ran some experiements. If I choose what to think I should be able to choose what to think next. This is funny because it actually makes my mind go blank…haha. “Choose what to think next!”…nothing…

The closest I seem to get is choosing what subject to think about. I‘m interested in surfing, so thoughts about surfing come up, but where did the original thought to get into surfing come from…I don’t know. But now I have surfing thoughts.

If I read about, watch others and do it myself, then I’ll have some “a-ha” light bulb thoughts about surfing “if you shift your weight at this point you’ll make a turn”, but I didn’t know before hand to think that thought. If I knew I was going to think that thought before hand I would already know that information before the thought…but did I just think that thought because I read about it or watched someone else do it?...that’s confusing.

Where did you read that?
I would say enjoy the clear state, but keep in mind to experience that is not realising no-self.
I read about it on ruthlesstruth forum. I might stop reading other peoples reports for a little...cool.
So it is fear for the future?
Do you think it is possible to make a plan?
Do you think you are in control of your life?
Life is just happening, dont you think?
Yes, it’s fear for the future.

In the conventional sense, yes I think it’s possible to make a plan. Or maybe it just unflolds from stimuli. Like I found a pamphlet on taking a cruise, now I’m thinking about taking a holiday. Eh, don’t know anymore.

There are definitely things I am not in control of, like my heartbeat, breathing while asleep, aches and pains in the body. So this says there are things that are automatic. It feels like I can take control of my breathing while awake, take a deep breath, hold it in…or it can run on automatic if I’m doing something else…but where the decision comes from I don’t know. I noticed that I can do something and then after the action comes a thought for the justification of that action, that’s kinda funny.

Life is happening…but just happening, that’s a bit scary. I watch people now from far away. They act like ants, going here and there, doing this and that, cities get buit up around them, but who controls that. If I sit and watch it just rolls on, continually…but what my role is in it I not sure.

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Re: Request for a guide

Postby Petrus » Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:04 am

Hi Ian,
No-self says to me there is no decider, but the process is still there, body reactions, thoughts, things still happen.
So no decider is not scary, as long as things still happen?
So you don’t like sleeping, because nothing is happening there (while not dreaming)?
Sometimes I’ll have a thought while I’m doing something and the model me is the same size as, and matches, my body. Not sure if I can explain this right. The thought fills up up whole body, like it’s not a little model in the diorama, “I’m making a coffee” and the thought is an image matched up with what is happening with the body in that moment.
I like your experiments. So the “I” in your thoughts is an image?
But when the image merges with the real ”I” nothing changes. So, isnt maybe this “I” everybody is talking about always just an image in thought?
I’ve been trying to locate it.
I meant can you try locate the “I”. Where is it? In your thoughts is it an image, but in the “real” what is it and where?
Thinking is a problem because it never resolves how you think it should. It doesn’t seem to be able to keep up with reality
So thinking is a sort of subtitling machine?
I can’t map the whole of reality with a thought, but I seemingly keep trying to, very annoying.
I cannot see why that is annoying. Isnt that a subtitle too?
Thinking just cannot map the whole of reality. Period. That just is very true!
Thinking always tries to claim reality, but it never succeeds.
I noticed that I can do something and then after the action comes a thought for the justification of that action, that’s kinda funny.
Thats the thinkingmachine again. Sometimes even it does the same before: Now we are going to make coffee. And then the doorbell rings. Do you recognize that?
Where did you read that? I would say enjoy the clear state, but keep in mind to experience that is not realising no-self.
I read about it on ruthlesstruth forum. I might stop reading other peoples reports for a little...cool.
I just wanted to know, so I can read it myself haha. Can you give a link?
I would like to know what words are used there to explain.
There are definitely things I am not in control of.
But what things you are in control of?

I am curious what you will come with this time. So far you are doing the guiding yourself, haha.

Petrus

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Re: Request for a guide

Postby IanR » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:32 am

Hi Petrus,
So no decider is not scary, as long as things still happen?
So you don’t like sleeping, because nothing is happening there (while not dreaming)?
Being in the world is scary. I would stop all happenings if I could. But being alive is addictive too.
Deep sleep is my favourite state, then dreaming because it is surreal, then being in the moment while awake doing something, then thinking and experiencing reality, from best to worst.

Yes, I see it as an image. I’m sitting here, I want to do something, I’ll see a video in my mind of me going off and doing it, like a short clip.

I’m starting to see a bit of distance between the actions and events in reality and the thought of “I” doing something. There is a growing separation between the two. I can see the “I“ thought in the thought diorama.

Just to clarify, I’m seeing two different things in the definition of “I”:
One is the deciderer, the choice selector or option maker, “should I eat fish or beef? I’ll eat beef, I made a decision!”
Two is the collective of body, mind, sense experiences and stories, “I went on a holiday, this is what I experienced (I guess that is a label too, in a social sense, I’m Ian, not Brad, I get all the sensations moving through Ian, not Brad).

Sometimes I can see a gap between the intent to do something and then after comes the label. Also, reflexes bring up something to examine. I’ve trained up a lot of reflexes that don’t require thinking, thinking actually hampers them.
So thinking is a sort of subtitling machine?
Yes, I can see the subtitling analogy clearly.
I cannot see why that is annoying. Isnt that a subtitle too?
Thinking just cannot map the whole of reality. Period. That just is very true!
Thinking always tries to claim reality, but it never succeeds.
Yes, it is a subtitle too. I’m starting to think these labeling thoughts are slightly retarded (I hope that’s not too offensive), pointing out the obvious, like going around sticking post-it notes on everything, “I see this, this is mine, this is good, that is bad”.
Thats the thinkingmachine again. Sometimes even it does the same before: Now we are going to make coffee. And then the doorbell rings. Do you recognize that?
Can you expand on this please, I don’t quite see it. Do I recognize being distracted?
Where did you read that? I would say enjoy the clear state, but keep in mind to experience that is not realising no-self.
Here is the link:
http://www.ruthlesstruth.com/arena/view ... f=4&t=1501

He makes a point of no-self being recognized in any state, feeling good or bad, thinking or not thinking.
But what things you are in control of?
What am I in control of…I don’t know, the general process seems to be:
a) Stimulus
b) Reaction
c) Label
d) Then suffer (har har) or enjoy (for that matter)

The body and senses appear to do a) and b) by themselves. c) comes up by itself too I guess, if I could label everything as positive and full of love I would do it, but it doesn’t happen…d) seems to happen automatically too. So nothing is controlled, but there is still some sense of controlling...

I wrote this.


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