A quick jog through the gate.

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Walbart
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Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:13 pm

A quick jog through the gate.

Postby Walbart » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:49 am

Come in if you want to see this.

CarsonZi

Re: A quick jog through the gate.

Postby CarsonZi » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:24 pm

Care to have a conversation Walbart? I posted an intro post here: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/nati ... ?f=4&t=353 but am impatient and am raring to go. ;D

Love!
Carson :)

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Walbart
Posts: 97
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:13 pm

Re: A quick jog through the gate.

Postby Walbart » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:32 am

Hey Carson, yes, let's go.
to label someone as "liberated" creates a very easy place for someone to "land." And I have no desire to land.... only desire to keep going and going and going.... to no end.
This is great, because you have no choice in the matter. There is no ground anywhere.

So first of all, what are your expectations here? What would you like to get out of this conversation? You say your friend found some benefit, what would you like this to be for yourself?
Am looking forward to seeing if this process can help me see my Self (or as is probably more correct vernacular here at LU, my "no self" ;) ) a little clearer.
I can certainly do this. We'll bring your self into full view in broad daylight ;)

Glad you're here, let's have some fun doing this.

CarsonZi

Re: A quick jog through the gate.

Postby CarsonZi » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:32 pm

Hi Walbart! :)

Excited to begin!
So first of all, what are your expectations here? What would you like to get out of this conversation? You say your friend found some benefit, what would you like this to be for yourself?
As far as expectations go, I honestly have none. As I mentioned in my opening post I am skeptical of this process, simply because it seems a bit too easy/fast.... sort of "magic bullet-ish" and I'm always wary of that. BUT, I am willing to set my skepticism aside and jump in with both feet in order to get whatever I can from this process.... whatever that turns out to be. I won't be disappointed no matter what transpires here. :)

As far as what I would like to receive benefit-wise, I guess I can say I would like to walk away from this with increased clarity. Clarity about Self/No-Self/True Nature/whatever you want to call "That".
Am looking forward to seeing if this process can help me see my Self (or as is probably more correct vernacular here at LU, my "no self" ;) ) a little clearer.
I can certainly do this. We'll bring your self into full view in broad daylight ;)

Glad you're here, let's have some fun doing this.[/quote]

Bring it! :D

Love!
Carson :)

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Walbart
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Re: A quick jog through the gate.

Postby Walbart » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:06 pm

As far as expectations go, I honestly have none
Ok, I don't believe you.

I am skeptical of this process, simply because it seems a bit too easy/fast
People who make a point of saying they're skeptical so soon are normally still harbouring some "hope". But we can soon get rid of that. The seeing of this no-self thing is simple, but it's just the beginning, the first part of a long process. So it isn't a quick-fix or magic bullet. It's just about questioning and testing the assumptions you don't even realize you have.

So let's cut to the chase.

Can you tell me what you are?
When I say "you", and you think"me",
what is this describing?

CarsonZi

Re: A quick jog through the gate.

Postby CarsonZi » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:24 pm

Hi Walbart :)
Ok, I don't believe you.
No worries. You don't have to. :)
People who make a point of saying they're skeptical so soon are normally still harbouring some "hope".
Yes. :) I am harboring some hope that there will be some benefit to our conversation here. For sure, no doubt about it. :)
But we can soon get rid of that. The seeing of this no-self thing is simple, but it's just the beginning, the first part of a long process. So it isn't a quick-fix or magic bullet. It's just about questioning and testing the assumptions you don't even realize you have.
Perfect. :)
So let's cut to the chase.
Can you tell me what you are?
My verbal interpretation of who I am is that I am "the space where there is no investment in thought." I currently experience thoughts/feelings/sensations/etc as objects separate from myself and I know myself to be something that is beyond anything perceivable.
When I say "you", and you think"me",
what is this describing?
The space where there is no investment in thoughts.

Love!
Carson :)

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Walbart
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Re: A quick jog through the gate.

Postby Walbart » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:45 pm

I am "the space where there is no investment in thought." I currently experience thoughts/feelings/sensations/etc as objects separate from myself
Great, so you see that thoughts/feelings/sensations/etc are objects. The contents of your experience.
What makes you think that they are separate from you? If they are separate, where is the division, the boundary between objects and "you".

Are you saying that you identify yourself as space?

I know myself to be something that is beyond anything perceivable
How do you know this?

CarsonZi

Re: A quick jog through the gate.

Postby CarsonZi » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:49 pm

When I say "you", and you think"me",
what is this describing?
In an "ultimate" sense my answer is what I mentioned above... that I know myself to be "the space where there is no investment in thought".... but I can also see my "small self" as a conglomerate of ideas, thoughts, beliefs, conditioning, habits, etc etc etc.

Love!
Carson :)

CarsonZi

Re: A quick jog through the gate.

Postby CarsonZi » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:58 pm

Great, so you see that thoughts/feelings/sensations/etc are objects. The contents of your experience.
What makes you think that they are separate from you?
That's just how they are seen. I "see" them as arising out of "the space where there is no investment in thought" and when thoughts/feelings/sensations that "break the space" and my attention becomes aware of them I can see the specific investment "I" (the ego/separate self) have in them. Then I have the choice to hold on to them or let go of them.
If they are separate, where is the division, the boundary between objects and "you".
There is no real "division" persay. It's a bit challenging to explain with words but when I "look" I see a constant stream of infinite stimuli, arising and dissolving in infinte space. Most of the stimuli I am not consciously aware of (it doesn't grab my attention), but the stuff I *do* become aware of (thoughts/feelings/sensations/etc) I am conscious of there being some investment/attachment/belief in.

[/quote]Are you saying that you identify yourself as space?[/quote]

"Space" is just a word, but what that word is pointing to (for me) is what I feel is "myself," yes.
How do you know this?
The same way someone could tell you that they know they are male/female. By looking at themselves and seeing that they have a penis or a vagina. ;P (P.S. I know I am not my gender ;) )

Love!
Carson :)

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Walbart
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Re: A quick jog through the gate.

Postby Walbart » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:28 pm

Now we're getting somewhere, good.
I "see" them as arising out of "the space where there is no investment in thought" and when thoughts/feelings/sensations that "break the space" and my attention becomes aware of them I can see the specific investment "I" (the ego/separate self) have in them. Then I have the choice to hold on to them or let go of them.
There is no choice. There is no you to choose. There is no choosing.

Read this line and don't think of a banana.
Too late, you thought of a banana. You failed. You don't control what thoughts occur. You don't control what objects arise in the field of awareness, or space.

The same way someone could tell you that they know they are male/female. By looking at themselves and seeing that they have a penis or a vagina.
You say you are "something that is beyond anything perceivable", so how does the above line apply? There is no evidence for you to point to that proves you are space or beyond perception. No true-self cock and balls.

How the fuck can you be something that is beyond perceivable? You are identifying with space.
When you think "I am the space where there is no investment in thought", what is this action made of? Where does it happen? Really look into this, this is the key here.

I don't get it Carson. It all sounds like beliefs to me. You need to start looking at what is in front of you right now. You are seeing the truth of the "small-self" but you've shifted identity back to something more elusive and dangerous. But it's all just thoughts.

CarsonZi

Re: A quick jog through the gate.

Postby CarsonZi » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:47 pm

Hi Walbart :)

No need for swearing is there? I'm not "testing" you, I'm not trying to offend you, I'm just being as honest with you as I am capable of being. Let's try to keep things civil and polite yes? :)
I "see" them as arising out of "the space where there is no investment in thought" and when thoughts/feelings/sensations that "break the space" and my attention becomes aware of them I can see the specific investment "I" (the ego/separate self) have in them. Then I have the choice to hold on to them or let go of them.
There is no choice. There is no you to choose. There is no choosing.
Let's take a specific thought for a moment and make this less ambiguous shall we? :) Lets take a specific thought that I become aware of on a regular basis... "I would like to smoke a joint right now." This is a thought that I find often arises and "breaks the space" (meaning I become aware of it and I can see that I have some investment in it). When I notice that I am aware of this thought, somehow I am able to either choose to let go of it (and when I do this the thought dissolves and is gone) or I am able to hold onto it (and the thought remains in my present awareness and often causes me some suffering or feelings of longing to be able to smoke a joint).
You don't control what thoughts occur. You don't control what objects arise in the field of awareness, or space.
Absolutely. This is why I said before that there is an infinite stream of thoughts arising and dissolving in infinite space. "I" am not thinking all these infinite thoughts. But they are "out there." What I notice is that the thoughts that I become aware of (like my above example) are thoughts that I have a belief/investment in. In my above example I have a belief/investment in the thought that I would like to smoke a joint because I have memories of doing so and of enjoying the sensations it produces. There is investment in the belief that smoking pot makes "me" (the body/mind complex that my "limited awareness" is embodying) feel good.
The same way someone could tell you that they know they are male/female. By looking at themselves and seeing that they have a penis or a vagina.
You say you are "something that is beyond anything perceivable", so how does the above line apply? There is no evidence for you to point to that proves you are space or beyond perception. No true-self cock and balls.
The only evidence I have of being something that is beyond perception is my experience... and it can't be proven (at least not in any way I know of). I also can't find any feelings of desire *to* prove it. It's one of those "knowings" that needs no validation from "another." Not really sure what the "cock and balls" comment is about. :O
How the fuck can you be something that is beyond perceivable? You are identifying with space.
What is percieving? Whatever is percieving is beyond perception.
When you think "I am the space where there is no investment in thought", what is this action made of? Where does it happen? Really look into this, this is the key here.
The key is your use of the word "think." I don't actually *think* I am the space where there is no investment in thought... that's just my way of verbally explaining what I percieve myself to be. Very difficult when what you perceive yourself to be is beyond description, beyond perception.
I don't get it Carson. It all sounds like beliefs to me. You need to start looking at what is in front of you right now. You are seeing the truth of the "small-self" but you've shifted identity back to something more elusive and dangerous. But it's all just thoughts.
Ok. Please help me see through it all then. That is why I am here. :)

Thank you for your help and please, lets keep this polite. :)

Love!
Carson :)

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Walbart
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Re: A quick jog through the gate.

Postby Walbart » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:37 pm

Hi Carson,

Of course, my apologies. I wasn’t swearing because I was offended. It was just a literary punctuation ;) Sorry if I offended you in any way. (Besides, you started it by bringing penises and vaginas into this...)

You don't ever decide to smoke a joint or not. Any decision you appear to make is simply a thought tagged on after the action. You have conditioned reflexes and they will do what they will. Any "controller" is illusory, and realising this is where the ideas about surrender and flow come in.

Is it possible for "space" or "true self" or whatever to attach to the body somewhere and take control of it? Where would it attach? This is the beginnings of spiritual sci-fi. You aren't in control of your body, and you don't make decisions. Choices appear, to smoke or not to smoke, and the body moves based on the momentum of past conditions, experiences, acquired preferences (pleasant yes, unpleasant no) and current experience. Then the thought appears "I decided to do this". There isn't a small I inside the body controlling it, and there isn't a big I outside of the body controlling it. It's mechanical. Your body is a machine, an organism. Your brain is unbelievably powerful, storing memories, creating stories, being "you". But it's all just thoughts. And all thoughts are, are reflections, data input, processing.

And the funniest part of this is that you don't exist, it isn't your body and it isn't you doing the thinking or choosing. You already see this in regards to the "small self".
What is percieving? Whatever is percieving is beyond perception
There is no perceiver, only perception. There are things and objects, and that's it. There are functioning eyes and a brain, this is where the bodies' awareness of it's surroundings comes from, but this is also as far as it goes. There is no perceiver in/behind/around/underneath the body that is at the receiving end of sight or hearing. There is just the sight of something that is registered, to no one.
The key is your use of the word "think." I don't actually *think* I am the space where there is no investment in thought... that's just my way of verbally explaining what I percieve myself to be. Very difficult when what you perceive yourself to be is beyond description, beyond perception.
Ok, I'm with you, but this is mental trickery. To use your example earlier, if we want to find out if we are male or female we look to see what type of genitals we have. Now, when I ask you to look and see "you", you aren't looking. You're just telling me that you are un-perceivable space. Very convenient. If you were this you wouldn't be able to report back about it.

Take a look right now. Forget any assumptions or ideas about being space or un-perceivable awareness etc. What is going on right now in front of you? What are you experiencing now, and is any of it empty space?

If you are beyond perception or "space" then why are you always located wherever the body/mind object is? If you are this space couldn't you just float away? Don't worry about anything else for a few minutes, just have a look at empirical reality as it is happening and on display in this moment. Where are "you"?

CarsonZi

Re: A quick jog through the gate.

Postby CarsonZi » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:25 pm

Hi Walbart :)
Of course, my apologies. I wasn’t swearing because I was offended. It was just a literary punctuation ;) Sorry if I offended you in any way. (Besides, you started it by bringing penises and vaginas into this...)
You didn't offend me. :) I just needed to make sure that the swearing wasn't the result of you being upset. Swearing doesn't bother me (I was in a hardcore band for almost a decade and, well, swearing comes with the territory ;) ).
You don't ever decide to smoke a joint or not. Any decision you appear to make is simply a thought tagged on after the action. You have conditioned reflexes and they will do what they will. Any "controller" is illusory, and realising this is where the ideas about surrender and flow come in.
Yes, I understand. When I talk about choosing I'm talking about surrender. I'm talking about letting go of thoughts. I realize that there is no "I" that is choosing to let go of the thoughts, I am merely using the limited language we have available to us to point to reality (as it says in ACIM "Words are but symbols of symbols thus twice removed from reality"). Non-duality is something that language can only point to as language is the product of the mind and of thought which is inherently dual. I understand that smoking will happen or it won't and that thinking about it doesn't change anything.
Is it possible for "space" or "true self" or whatever to attach to the body somewhere and take control of it?
No. It *is* possible for "space" or "True Nature" or whatever to enhabit the body and experience itself through the body though.
Where would it attach? This is the beginnings of spiritual sci-fi. You aren't in control of your body, and you don't make decisions. Choices appear, to smoke or not to smoke, and the body moves based on the momentum of past conditions, experiences, acquired preferences (pleasant yes, unpleasant no) and current experience.
Yes, I get this.
Then the thought appears "I decided to do this". There isn't a small I inside the body controlling it, and there isn't a big I outside of the body controlling it. It's mechanical. Your body is a machine, an organism. Your brain is unbelievably powerful, storing memories, creating stories, being "you". But it's all just thoughts. And all thoughts are, are reflections, data input, processing.
Again, I understand. Things happen, and then the mind labels it. The mind has a bad habit of trying to conceptualize, analyze, judge, compare, etc etc what is happening and try to ascribe meaning to it all. This happens (in my experience anyway) because the mind doesn't like the unknown. The unknown causes the mind to react with fear. For me, learning to allow the mind to rest and to be okay with not-knowing was a huge shift and resulted in a lot less suffering here.
What is percieving? Whatever is percieving is beyond perception
There is no perceiver, only perception. There are things and objects, and that's it. There are functioning eyes and a brain, this is where the bodies' awareness of it's surroundings comes from, but this is also as far as it goes. There is no perceiver in/behind/around/underneath the body that is at the receiving end of sight or hearing. There is just the sight of something that is registered, to no one.
I didn't say there was a perceiver. I asked "What is perceiving?" And in my experience, what is perceiving is perception itself, and that perception is beyond description since it is both everything and nothing and is in essence "non-dual." This is also why I say that it (aka what I am) defies description. That which is non-dual can not be described simply because to describe it is to drag it back into duality. "The Tao that can be spoken of is not The Tao" kind of thing.
The key is your use of the word "think." I don't actually *think* I am the space where there is no investment in thought... that's just my way of verbally explaining what I percieve myself to be. Very difficult when what you perceive yourself to be is beyond description, beyond perception.
Ok, I'm with you, but this is mental trickery. To use your example earlier, if we want to find out if we are male or female we look to see what type of genitals we have. Now, when I ask you to look and see "you", you aren't looking. You're just telling me that you are un-perceivable space. Very convenient. If you were this you wouldn't be able to report back about it.
When you ask me to look and see "me" I am most indeed looking. I just can't find "me" that's all. I'm not trying to play games with you, again I am just being as honest as I possibly can.
Take a look right now. Forget any assumptions or ideas about being space or un-perceivable awareness etc. What is going on right now in front of you? What are you experiencing now, and is any of it empty space?
What is going on right now is this:
I am reading your words, noticing what thoughts arise in response, and typing the ones that resonate down using my fingers. (when I say "my fingers" etc I don't actually think they are "mine".... I hope you understand this. I just find the "neo-advaitin" tendency to talk in third person all the time completely annoying, so, this is how I am talking). What is going on in front of me is a constant arising of stimuli... visually seeing things, tactilely feeling things, hearing things, etc etc etc. But there is a "distance" between everything that is being perceived sensually and "me".... there is "space" between what is arising and "me." I can't see "me," I can't feel "me," but there is *something* that is perceiving everything that is arising. What is perceiving is what I am calling "me."
If you are beyond perception or "space" then why are you always located wherever the body/mind object is?
I'm not always located where my body/mind is. There are lots of times when I (the perceiving) am not "in" my/the body/mind.
If you are this space couldn't you just float away?
And indeed I can.
Don't worry about anything else for a few minutes, just have a look at empirical reality as it is happening and on display in this moment. Where are "you"?
I am right here. Don't know how else to answer that, sorry. :)

Love!
Carson :)

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Walbart
Posts: 97
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Re: A quick jog through the gate.

Postby Walbart » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:29 pm

Yes, we’re limited by language, but it’s the best thing we have right now.
It *is* possible for "space" or "True Nature" or whatever to inhabit the body and experience itself through the body though.
Really? How? Tell me.

The body experiences, via it’s senses, while it is alive. This is it. Anything else you say about this is a fiction.

Anything you say that is me or I related is a thought.
When you ask me to look and see "me" I am most indeed looking. I just can't find "me" that's all
I believe you. You can’t find “me” because it doesn’t exist. But then you say:
What is perceiving is what I am calling "me"
There are thoughts arising in the (your) brain/body that are identifying with something other than what is true. All identity is assumed, it doesn’t exist. Does space need a 'me' to exist? Isn't it enough that there is space, and then there are thoughts about being this space?
What is going on in front of me is a constant arising of stimuli... visually seeing things, tactilely feeling things, hearing things
This is good, things just keep happening, but there is no you that they are happening to. Not on any level. You’ve seen this partly and you can disengage from the rabble of objects in experience. You see that there are characteristics of a person but this isn’t you, it's just memory and conditioning and flow and patterns.

Now look at experience now, things happen, sensations, thoughts, knee itching. They are full, they are enough on there own. They appear and disappear, they show up in awareness. But this awareness isn’t you, and it’s not yours. It’s just a human body, an organism that has motor functions and a massive computer at the centre of it, which enables it to be conscious and aware.

Everything is an object, there isn't any subject.
I'm not always located where my body/mind is. There are lots of times when I (the perceiving) am not "in" my/the body/mind
Please tell me where you are when you are not located in your mind & body? Or rather, wher else do you perceive from if not your body & mind?

Great about the hardcore btw, used to love this when I was younger and been in a few bands too :)

CarsonZi

Re: A quick jog through the gate.

Postby CarsonZi » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:13 pm

Hi Walbart :)
It *is* possible for "space" or "True Nature" or whatever to inhabit the body and experience itself through the body though.
Really? How? Tell me.
From my perspective (and again, when I say "my perspective" I don't literally mean it is "mine"... I just have a conditioned aversion to say "from the perspective here" ;P ), the space/true nature/perceiving/inner silence/unbound awareness/tao/non-dual awareness/That, all these words point to the same "thing." "That which these words are pointing to" is what is witnessing "this" (*waves arms around pointing at everything*). It is not limited to the perspective from my/this body, but it can be that too. "That" is what is experiencing through this body. At least that is how I am seeing things right now. If this doesn't align with what you see, then lets discuss more! :D
The body experiences, via it’s senses, while it is alive. This is it. Anything else you say about this is a fiction.
Okay... I can agree with that. :)
Anything you say that is me or I related is a thought.
Also agreed. :)
When you ask me to look and see "me" I am most indeed looking. I just can't find "me" that's all
I believe you. You can’t find “me” because it doesn’t exist. But then you say:
What is perceiving is what I am calling "me"
There are thoughts arising in the (your) brain/body that are identifying with something other than what is true. All identity is assumed, it doesn’t exist. Does space need a 'me' to exist? Isn't it enough that there is space, and then there are thoughts about being this space?
Yes absolutely. The space does not need a "me" to exist. All thoughts of "me" are arising within the space. The space is what Life is playing out in.
Now look at experience now, things happen, sensations, thoughts, knee itching. They are full, they are enough on there own. They appear and disappear, they show up in awareness. But this awareness isn’t you, and it’s not yours. It’s just a human body, an organism that has motor functions and a massive computer at the centre of it, which enables it to be conscious and aware.
I agree that the awareness that it is all arising and dissolving within is not "mine," but from my perspective it *is* "me"... and "you" and all of "us." It is everything. It is all there is. Perhaps that is just language again becoming a barrier to understanding, but maybe this is where my hang-up is? Care to discuss this part more?
Everything is an object, there isn't any subject.
There could be a case made that ultimately there are no objects either. ;)
The "separation" between "me" and the "objects of perception" that I've talked about is not ultimately real. I know this. But this *is* my current perspective. That is how things are actually seen. I guess I am here looking to deepen past the point of "discrimination" (I am not this, not this, not this... the whole "neti neti" thing) into the full experience of 24/7 unity.... where I am experientially everything and nothing simultaneously. I have had "glimpses" (some lasting as long as 3 days) of this before, but I am not there 24/7.
I'm not always located where my body/mind is. There are lots of times when I (the perceiving) am not "in" my/the body/mind
Please tell me where you are when you are not located in your mind & body?
I am "unbound"... what the awareness is perceiving depends on that moment, but I have travelled the cosmos, taken tours of my internal organs, have gone to other worlds and other times, the experiences are endless really.
Or rather, wher else do you perceive from if not your body & mind?
Usually when this happens (and I must mention that I can not do this at will) I will leave my body as a small ball of white light, but that "ball" can expand or contract to infinity.
Great about the hardcore btw, used to love this when I was younger and been in a few bands too :)
:D It was a tough road to travel for me... led me into long term IV heroin/opiate addiction and many other "unpleasantries"... am very happy to be out of that now to be honest. ;P Now I prefer reggae. Hahahah :D

Love!
Carson :)


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