first message

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Del
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first message

Postby Del » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:44 am

Hi, this is my first message. I have been seeking for a long while. Twenty years ago I disapeared for a few moments and everything was perfect...I couldn't describe to myself or anyone else what had occurred! In various ways, without knowing anything about 'seekin' I became a seeker. I have had glimpses of a better way to be, I've read lots, mostly buddhism till the past year when I stumbled across non dualism. Just read a couple of Joey Lott's books also reading Wayne Liquorman and Fred Davis at the moment. Frustrated really as I write this, I'm having moments of just being but mostly still chasing something whilst I pretend to myself that I'm giving up. I am seeing more the endless thoughts piling up on top of each other and I see clearly that that is where the grief is yet it's relentless....aaaghhhh!! I am so sick of all this now and ready to drop all the illusion so why don't I? For a while I thought that the reason I couldn't 'do' it was because I'm a mother and had a lot of fear about sitting around in rapture and not taking care of myself or my son if I was to become enligtened!! I do get the point now that things would go on being done, as they are now, since there's no me here anyhow...but...I'm most of the time not clear. I don't want to just give up and go back to another 6 months of living in a dream until something comes up to make me read that next book and REALLY want to get it again....I do this pattern over and over....I just want to finally stay in it. Enough is enough, can anyone help me?

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Re: first message

Postby Bill » Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:15 pm

Hello Del,

Hi. I'm Bill and I'd be happy to guide you.    Thanks for the intro
you gave. You have arrived here at a good place in your 'seeking', believe it or not. We like to think of this as the last place for people to look, and I really like it when people have felt they have exhausted all other ways. We see many people come here with similar stories... a lifetime or many years of study, etc and they are still seeking. So I like it when you come in here and are 'ready'.

We do look at the thoughts quite a bit and try to find what's real, and what's just a fantasy or illusion. This is really all we do is point this out. Sometimes it is very hard to see, other times it all just pops into focus very easily.  Your desire to see through this and stay with it until its seen is a key.


Tell me, what is it that you want to get from here? How do you think this is to look like after you finally get there? What are your expectations from this dialogue?  What would life look like for you if this happened?

Bill

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Re: first message

Postby Del » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:30 pm

Hi Bill,
thankyou for offering to guide me. please just call me Adele.
In answer to your questions.... I want to live without fear, I want to be satisfied and I want to be happy. If I'm honest those are the things that I want.I suppose I think that after I get there, there will be peace. I imagine that stress and worry will be gone or there will be less of those things. I have a good life with many blessings yet I can not help the fact that I am forever searching for something I sense as the 'truth'. I have been interested for many years in philosophy and religion and what it means to live an authentic life. I am always, always looking for 'the pearl of great price'. I hope these dialogues will somehow strengthen the focus on reality or clear away the cobwebs. I hope they will allow me to understand....I think I have been looking for understanding and now realise that I can not do this intellectually. I hope to see things directly. I don't know what life would look like...that makes me feel a bit afraid.

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Re: first message

Postby Bill » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:38 pm

Hello Del,

Glad you are here.
I don't see anything too unreasonable in your expectations..
Although I will say that you will find out that none of these even matter much.
I know they may right now... just be open to 'not knowing' how things should or need to be.

Thanks for the intro on what you've been up to..
I might ask you questions about some of your seeking as we go along.

A few bits of housekeeping before we get started..
Please take a look at the intro page of LU here, it contains a link on the side to our disclaimer and in the second link there is a short video.
Watch it if you have a few minutes. It describes what we call 'looking' which is an important key in what we point to here.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

http://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c

Some guidelines that I would like your agreement on:

1) Agree to post daily or near daily, email if you are not able.
We find this works good and keeps the focus on...

2) Please set aside any other spiritual practices during this inquiry. Meditation is fine if you are already doing it but don't start anything new.

3) I will ask you questions and you answer from your direct experience of being here
.... listen very closely to the answers that arise in you. When you answer, give your experience at the time and not what might be considered to be the 'correct' answer... This is very important. You'll see what I mean as we go along. In short, just answer to the very best of your ability at that time.

4) If you could confirm you have seen all the above and are in agreement, we can go ahead and get started.

The first question is this.....
What is your response... What is your reaction when I say that the you that you think you are is not real?
That there is no 'I' in real life, none.... zero... It can't be found if searched for.
There is no entity. Nothing. Just life.

What comes up for you?
Feelings, thoughts, reactions, sensations.... list all and any that come for you.

Bill

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Re: first message

Postby Bill » Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:13 pm

*Del - Im posting this here for you after changing your username...

Hi Bill,

In answer to 'the you you think you are is not real' my response is...
I feel that I know that is true on some level. There is the memory (which my mind often often touches on of a happening in the past when I seemed to disappear, there was just the stuff around, rock pool, sea, air. Those things were somehow alive and I was that aliveness. Somehow i was those things but when it was happening I couldn't have said that. When a thought came along the lines of 'my god this is beautiful' I quickly zoomed back into my body and become 'I' again. This thing that happened is a reference point for me as I saw clearly that I was only normally experiencing life from a very closed perspective. I think that helps me to know that what you are saying is true.
I feel a deep longing for the truth and a part of me knows it's true and there's thoughts like 'thank goodness I can finally be free.' There are also lots of other thoughts that come up though, such as...'I quite like being me!', and 'maybe I should wait 6 weeks till after the wedding before I really go for it'. Writing this is making me laugh though, I feel I don't have much choice than to be here, right now, doing what ever I need to do to realise what it is that is real.
I feel calm, a little bit emotional, slightly sad...I've no idea why..maybe just the rain, the mood of the day. Thoughts coming up about my boy, my ten year old, I'm becoming more emotional, thinking I just want to do whatever is right to make him happy. Will seeing this truth help me make his life a safe, happy, good one? I also see that these are just thoughts, not what is real, what is happening, but ...but what...I don't know. My son has mild autism and ocd, he gets trapped in his thoughts...I want to free us both. I feel determination, I have a knowing, a feeling now in the middle of my chest...I see that I have been trying so long and so hard to wake up, it's like... the truth of the matter, that I don't exist, wants to reveal it's self to me. All these years I have described it in my diaries as 'needing to wake up' I didn't know what I meant, of course I still don't know what it will look like to 'be awake' but I'm sure it is time.
I feel a nervous, excited energy in the top of my chest and my face....I'll leave it here though as I could go on babbling endlessly describing the feelings and thoughts as they come and go. Oh I should also say that the thoughts keep coming up, 'I hope I'm on the right track, I hope he doesn't think I'm an idiot, I hope I'm doing ok' etc....I am a people pleaser and worrier of the highest calliber!
Thank you for your time
Del

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Re: first message

Postby Bill » Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:34 pm

Hi Del,

So it looks like we have all of the username housekeeping out of the way now. I went ahead and posted your response to me as to not lose the continuity.
Also, please acknowledge you have read the disclaimer and the other items on the first post I made back to you.

About your past 'experience'.
What we point to here will not take you back to that. We know from seeing hundreds of people that what this is, is not a 'state'. States come and go. These are part of the things people have been sold that waking up will be.... that you will be blissful all the time, never angry, full of love for everyone (always), 'see' things others don't, be at peace all the time... etc.. Spiritual teachers stay in business peddling these myths and the general public buys it. We've found a very different reality about what actually happens. And that is that nothing really happens.. Only your perception of things will be different. If you had problems before, they will more than likely continue afterwards. You might just have a different perspective on them.... or not. This is not a 'fixer' for what's wrong or not working in life.
It's merely about seeing what's here for real.

I'll probably discuss your fears as they come up... don't be afraid to bring anything out in the open that comes up for you as we go along. We all experience fear from time to time.. looking at it and being with it without flinching is usually what we ask people to do. LIke if a fear comes up, just to be as calm as you can with it and don't push it away but take a real look and see if there's truly anything there other than a thought...

Since thoughts are so prominent (and active) lets take a closer look at your thoughts..
Now I know you've been studying this for years and 'know' all the right answers.
Let instead come out what truly comes up for you in your direct experience.

Take your time with these and try your best to use the 'looking' method described in the video.
I find its helpful for people to watch that video a few times when starting as its very helpful.
We want to 'look' in a way that we might call pure perception, although that's never really obtainable.
By 'looking' I'm not talking about understanding either.

Can you look carefully and tell me where thoughts arise, for you?
Can you see a point of origin, in reality?

Looking at the thoughts, do they all start out with an I attached,
or does the I attach to the thought somewhere?
In other words, are they all about you?


**************************************

Forgot this in the opening post.. I do recommend one companion reading along with
your dialogue. That is the 'Gateless Gatecrashers' book. It's in pdf form here
and will be helpful to read one story (or more) a day as we go along.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/PDF/ ... ashers.pdf

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Re: first message

Postby Del » Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:08 pm

Hi Bill,
I have read and understood the disclaimer and other items and I agree.

I have copied down the questions to explore tomorrow while I am at work. It is late now and I have to go to bed. I have been watching my thoughts closely over the past few weeks (on and off) I see they are not what I took them for but I am going to have a hard time describing this. I am excited though that I have these questions to ask myself. I do tend to have answers float through my head that have come from books or videos...I sometimes wonder if I have ever had a thought that was my own??
I do not wish to disappear into some mysterious oneness where I'd have no more regard for everyday life. I mention this past 'experience' as I think it was important in that it revealed something to me, about a depth of knowing,that I'd previously had no notion of. I probably have been trying to get back to it in many ways. I love mundanity though...I do! When I can really feel things as they are happening. marvelous.
Anyway lets stick with the programme!
I will look closely at my thoughts and get back to you asap
Thankyou
Goodnight

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Re: first message

Postby Del » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:33 pm

Hi,
I have been going back to the questions you asked throughout my day. I have been quite busy and I won't get any time alone for a quiet, more considered exploration probably until late tomorrow. However this is what I I found...
I found it impossible to see thoughts arising, thoughts seemed to always have just happened and i had to rethink the thought or the memory of the thought to try and see it clearly. I tried purposefully thinking thoughts slowly while I watched the thought but was aware of other thoughts coming in. The other thoughts were along the lines of 'this is not a natural thought' or 'I don't know what I'm doing'.
Also I found when I managed to remember to look directly at a thought as it was happening it would stop.
What a thought looked and felt like is very hard to describe...they seem to happen somewhere around where I feel my head is, they are words but there is no sound. I was thinking if they are not there visually like a written word and not audible how do I know them? I tried to look at a word at a time...I can't find it but it's there. I don't know what to say about that.
I tried to see if there was an I attached. Some thoughts have definite 'I' attached and there were lots of these thoughts, 'I'm hungry', 'I'm hot' etc There were many thoughts that seemed personal even though I didn't put the word 'I' in. Lots of my thoughts were judgements about customers and so I asked myself if it was an 'I' judging. I wasn't sure. That last sentence seems odd now!! The judgement thoughts also took place very quickly, there was no 'I' having a thought or deciding to have the thought...it was quite shocking really to see the amount of judging thoughts and pretty mean, petty thoughts that on closer inspection seemed ridiculous. Still all these thoughts do feel very personal, like they belong to me.
There were other types of thoughts which definitely didn't seem to have an I attached. These thoughts took place when I was involved in some action like making a display. Then the thoughts would be such as..'that needs to go over there, that will look better in there.' These thoughts were about the job and the thoughts were commenting on what was being done but not in a personal way. These thoughts do often turn personal though for instance when 'that should be more red and there needs to be more fabric over here' turns into a thought about an imaginary future event where I will be getting complimented for my good work!
I found the looking quite confusing a lot of the time though, apart from the obvious thoughts that are caught there seems to be a fuzziness of half thought or nonsense thoughts popping in also, then I think, are there other thoughts though or am I imagining them, then that statement seems ridiculous since I'm imagining all of them including this one. It's a bit like tying yourself in knots! I want to stop thinking now and go and have fun with my partner and my son...so goodbye for now
thanks for your time
Del

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Re: first message

Postby Bill » Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:01 am

Hello Del,

This is an excellent job of doing this first exercise.
I like how you are thorough and honest in your description of things.

To summarize loosely what you discovered:
you couldn't tell exactly where the thoughts were coming from....
there was seeming, but not real control over the thoughts coming.
The nature of them surprised you when you actually noticed them
Most thoughts had an "I" thought implied or attached...not all.
I found the looking quite confusing a lot of the time though, apart from the obvious thoughts that are caught there seems to be a fuzziness of half thought or nonsense thoughts popping in also, then I think, are there other thoughts though or am I imagining them, then that statement seems ridiculous since I'm imagining all of them including this one. It's a bit like tying yourself in knots! I want to stop thinking now and go and have fun with my partner and my son...
Isn't this pretty normal how thoughts come in and are like what you call 'half thoughts' or even impressions?
Haha good luck on stopping thinking... maybe a minute or two is tops for most people.
Oh by the way - that's not something we advocate here, stopping thinking (I know its not what you implied). We don't feel that manipulating with thinking has anything to do with waking up. Just noticing thoughts is all we would advocate.

Del, try this short exercise.
Look at the computer.
Is it truer to say, it is A computer? or a MY computer?

Can you attach a computer to a self? If so, how is it done?
How is something like a computer or anything 'attached' or belong to someone?
How is anything possessed by someone? What is the process? Where is this done?

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Re: first message

Postby Del » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:12 pm

Hi Bill,
ok - so first I tried to answer the question about the computer. my initial response was that I had no real sense of the computer belonging to me just because it's more my partner's thing. Instead I looked at my coffee cup which was next to me and to which I could definitely attach a 'my'. The cup was a present and so I have memories associated with it, how it came into my life etc. I have a strong sense that it is mine. I looked closer at this strong sense. It is the cup used most often when Del has coffee but why this 'mine-ness'.I find it hard to separate the two things, the cup and the mine-ness. The mine-ness seems to be part of the cup and I couldn't drop that sense of it. There were memories, thoughts,feelings and the cup, but they all blended together into a strong sense of 'me and cup' The more I thought about it though sometimes the mineness faded off and I saw the cup a bit more as cup. If that makes any sense? I kept getting a strong sensation in my chest while doing the exercise, a bit unpleasant which I think was frustration...I wanted to be able to satisfactorily pull the cup and the me-ness apart and see clearly what I'm thinking intellectually must be the case,,,that the mine-ness is not real. But I couldn't
I looked around my home over the day and realised that every single part of it has this extraordinarily strong case of mine-ness attached. i looked out of the window and at first I was thinking 'well I don't have the mine-ness about the neighbours trees or the sky' but then I wondered if that was true, the fact that I was thinking about them made them get the mine-ness.
I looked at my mobilephone, it seemed more neutral, I don't have the sentimental attachment that I have to a lot of the stuff around me. I asked myself your question 'how is it done'. Did it happen when I bought the phone. I paid for it and believed then that it was mine. I see that that is true relatively speaking, that lawfully it is my possession and mine to freely use but why does that create this big sense of mine-ness that seems to change the phone somehow from other phones I might see? I'm not sure if it's one initial thought that creates the mine feeling or if it's a thought I have over and over. When I look around me at stuff I don't seem to be labelling everything as mine or even having thoughts about things, there is just a pervading sense of the things belonging to me or more a sense that they are infused with me. I have real problems giving things away or throwing things away, I can see why! I can't see how I would begin to untangle all of this! I do it with more than just objects. We went for a walk earlier and I was looking at the familiar scenery and wondering if I thought that was mine too. I think I sort of do. I think - my day, my time, my memory, my thoughts etc. It's making me think of your earlier question about whether everything is about a 'me' I think maybe it is. Do I somehow feel I own everything I see, think about, do? I can see why this would be impossible to think one's way out of.

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Re: first message

Postby Bill » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:25 am

Hello Del,
I'm struck by your utter honesty here.
Your ability to get out what you're seeing and feeling is very good.
This is a huge part of seeing through things... brutal, utter honesty about what's going on.
Like you've noticed.... If we look, we really have to admit that almost everything is somehow
associated with 'me'. There's just very few exceptions if any.
To see this is very good.

Ok, about the possession and 'mine'...
Yes, things just 'are'. Its only in our thoughts we possess something.
'my computer' or 'a computer' ....
Its really only a computer :)
If we look, its really only a thought that creates possession.
Think about your own clothes vs. some others that are identical
Its only a thought that creates the difference and its only in our head.
If you took two cars, one of them 'yours' and another of the same exact model not yours and put them side by side, it's only our thoughts that tell us one of them is ours.
So a brief summation might be that thoughts arise, labels are put on the thoughts and we have ownership.
Ownership is just another thought. Possession is through thought alone.

Now how about the body? Is that owned and controlled in reality, by a self?

Now lets look and see if there is an owner or entity controlling it.
Lift one of your hands. either one.
Move it to the right. Now move it left. Look with your eyes what is happening. Did a self move the hand?
Or did the hand just move?
Direct observation. Move it again. Check it.
Which is more true, the hand moved, or a self moved the hand?
Use the LOOKING method for this.

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Re: first message

Postby Del » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:45 am

Hi BIll,
I just did the experiment and was thinking 'mmm not sure, I mean I'm moving the hand because you told me to, but I'm making that decision.' I then went to make a cup of tea while I thought about it. Then while I was making the tea I noticed my hands again...it was so funny! While I was lost in thought, the hands were totally going about the business of making the tea!! I have noticed this a bit in the past but had forgot. For a few seconds it was great just watching the hands perfectly doing it..making the tea. Just the way a hand ever so quickly turned the cup slightly nearer and the other hand worked alongside it perfectly...it's making me really chuckle now. While I'm thinking about all of this and remembering (even though it only happened a few minutes ago) my hands I notice now are totally going about the business of typing on the computer keys ooh and now scratching chin and now back to work ha ha! They just picked up cup...I am not telling them what to do...this is really very funny for me...I am laughing a lot! Bless the little hands, they have a life of their own. I don't know why it's so funny?

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Re: first message

Postby Bill » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:51 pm

Hi Del,

Great work here. Your ability to SEE what's going on is refreshing.
Liberation is not a thought, a feeling or a state. Its really so ordinary that we have almost totally missed it. I can't convince you of it, in fact the only way I can help is to point you in the right direction to look so you can see it for yourself. Only you can do the seeing for you.
it is through direct experience that it is seen. Its like we want you to look with fresh eyes at the truth of common everyday experience. Like a child sees... without any bias.
Its not hidden. Its just a shift in perspective.
Do not expect big fireworks. they may not happen. Each person is different.
All of the emotions we have had in the past are still here.. it just seems there is much less stickiness to them.
While I'm thinking about all of this and remembering (even though it only happened a few minutes ago) my hands I notice now are totally going about the business of typing on the computer keys ooh and now scratching chin and now back to work ha ha! They just picked up cup...I am not telling them what to do...this is really very funny for me...I am laughing a lot! Bless the little hands, they have a life of their own. I don't know why it's so funny?
Its probably funny because we just knew 'we' were always in control of everything.
At least that's what we've been led to believe since we were about 2 yrs old.
Seeing this lack of control can be very humorous. We've had people laugh for days here after seeing this.

What we're doing here is looking to see for real if there is an 'entity' in control.
Are 'we' in control? Or does life just happen?
Let's keep looking...

First I'll do a little summation of what we've looked at.

In looking at thoughts, we can't really find an origin point.
It appears we are thinking them, but are we?
Do you know what your next thought will be? For real. not a contrived situation.
How about sometimes some weird thoughts come in... where did they come from? You chose them?
Can you stop your thoughts from arising?
Yes sure, there is this seeming control.
But is it true?
Is is really true?
Are you really in control of your thoughts?
Check for yourself.

Do you see how literally all thoughts are stories? We see, a label is put on what we see, and a story is developed.
Every thought is essentially past tense in its nature. Describing something that has happened in the past (or might happen in the future). The only thing that is real is what is happening right now and here. To see this we need a willingness to see that what we might have been thinking all along is not really how things are. Or at least open to the possibility that we have not seen things as they are. We need a willingness to see prior to labels being put on what we see, even if just for an instant.

I'm going to give you a few exercises to do... please tell me where you feel any stuckness or confusion in any of this. You seem to be guiding yourself which I find very refreshing. We do tell people that really no guide is needed if a person is honest with themselves and can just LOOK.

------------------------------------------

What is happening in this moment? With your five senses, what do you experience? Sights, sounds, tastes, smells, tactile sensations, even thoughts. Just list what there is going on, don’t draw conclusions.

------------------------------------------
Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought “I hear that.” Now just pay attention to how sound happens. Take your time with it. Are you doing the hearing, or is it just happening?

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Re: first message

Postby Del » Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:03 pm

Hi Bill, I have posted to you earlier today though it doesn't seem to be showing as last post. Please let me know if you have not received my last post for some reason. It was answering your hearing question...if you did get it please ignore this!

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Re: first message

Postby Bill » Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:01 pm

Hello Del - nothing came thru to the forum.
Be very careful on long posts... The forum can timeout, and the post goes nowhere. To work around this, use an editor to write the reply, then cut and paste into the forum's reply box.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


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