Tired of seeking

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Asilomar
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:46 pm

Tired of seeking

Postby Asilomar » Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:59 am

Requesting help to enter the flow and find freedom. Have been on this path for a while now and have practiced meditation and mindfulness for some years which has helped soothe feelings of anxiousness and created a gap between me and my thoughts. There is still separation, however. And what I think keeps me separated is fear. Not really sure what that fear is about but my best guess is the loss of control. Sometimes when meditating I get the image of myself dangling over an abyss and hanging on to dear life by a tree root with my left hand. And there is no way I can will my hand loosen its death grip of the tree root. Help me let go. Please.

Marie

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4754
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Tired of seeking

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:07 am

Hi Marie,

My name is Vivien, wonderful to have you here. I am happy to assist in exploring 'no-self'.

A few technical support:

You can reply to this thread by pushing the purple-orange coloured button 'Post Reply" at the left bottom of this page.

You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.


What do you expect will happen when you have seen through the illusion of Me?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?

Please answer these questions in great detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Asilomar
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:46 pm

Re: Tired of seeking

Postby Asilomar » Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:35 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for taking me on!
What do you expect will happen when you have seen through the illusion of Me?
I used to have an expectation about a significant event, like a kundalini awakening with all the bells and whistles, but after reading "Gateless Gatecrashers", I realize that such an experience won't be necessary. Now I see it will probably not be a very big thing, but more of an "aha" moment when I see through the illusion.
How will Life change?
I don't think life will change - or maybe it will. I really don't know.
How will you change?
Not that much, I think. I will have the same personality, but hopefully be less reactive. And hopefully not get hooked on the thoughts and feelings that pass through the body. More tranquil, feeling more in flow with less worry and anxiety. A quiet joy.
What will be different?
I will be seeing life from another perspective than now when I see through the illusion of self.

Hm, it seems I had less expectations than I thought.

Also, I want to tell you about an "aha" moment I had today. I took the liberty of looking at your profile and saw your first thread with Vince and started to read it. Just a few posts down, when you were discussing labels, you wrote "The emotion is real, but not the word joy or wonder but the actual sensations in the body are labelled as joy or wonder." When I read that I realized that, holy cow, WE have divided all emotions into good or bad ones when THERE IS NO SUCH THING thing as a good or bad emotion! Emotions rise in the body due to external stimuli - or for no apparent reason at all - they just are. Then WE have put labels on them and given them names that have positive or negative connotations. Wow, everything is conditioning isn't it? Every time we open our mouths, out comes something that labels, judges and confines our world. No wonder it is more or less impossible to describe "enlightenment" with words! Our language is so very tightly linked with the self and its view of the world.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4754
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Tired of seeking

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:33 am

Dear Marie,

Thank you for your honesty and your description about the expectations.
This list is important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But liberation cannot be found in the future.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?
I used to have an expectation about a significant event, like a kundalini awakening with all the bells and whistles, but after reading "Gateless Gatecrashers", I realize that such an experience won't be necessary. Now I see it will probably not be a very big thing, but more of an "aha" moment when I see through the illusion.
Liberation is not just not a “significant event”, but not an event or rather say a one-time event at all.

There is no ‘you’ that could see through the illusion. Seeing through the illusion can happen, but without an owner (you).
I don't think life will change - or maybe it will. I really don't know.
Life or outer circumstances won’t change with liberation. Life is always is as it is. Only the perception changes. So everything will be the same, although everything might look different.
I will have the same personality, but hopefully be less reactive. And hopefully not get hooked on the thoughts and feelings that pass through the body.
Reactivity and being hooked on thoughts and feelings are the result of a lifetime of conditioning. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so gradually they fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.
A quiet joy.
Be careful with this one. This could be a hidden expectation and thus a hindrance of seeing what is here, right now.

Joy, happiness or peace are states, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Liberation is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about accepting all states and emotions, accepting whatever is arising in this moment.

Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity "self" is not a state. When you SEE it, the knowledge becomes factual.

For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a State to "abide in". It's not.
I will be seeing life from another perspective than now when I see through the illusion of self.
Yes, perception changes, but there is no ‘you’ that would see life from another perspective or see through the illusion of the self.
WE have divided all emotions into good or bad ones when THERE IS NO SUCH THING thing as a good or bad emotion!
Have this REALLY seen, or it is currently rather an intellectual understanding?
Wow, everything is conditioning isn't it? Every time we open our mouths, out comes something that labels, judges and confines our world.
Yes. And it is not necessary open our mouths. Thinking labels, judges and interpret almost everything.

Please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.

In your first post you wrote:
Requesting help to enter the flow and find freedom.
What ‘entering the flow’ means to you?
What freedom means to you?
Have been on this path for a while now and have practiced meditation and mindfulness for some years which has helped soothe feelings of anxiousness and created a gap between me and my thoughts.
What is this ‘me’ that has thoughts?
Where is it?
What is this ‘me’ on the one side of the gap?
And what I think keeps me separated is fear. Not really sure what that fear is about but my best guess is the loss of control. Sometimes when meditating I get the image of myself dangling over an abyss and hanging on to dear life by a tree root with my left hand. And there is no way I can will my hand loosen its death grip of the tree root. Help me let go.
Fear is just a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. It highlights that there is a story there about pain or negative consequences to this investigation.

What I’d like you to do is to investigate this fear. Examine it closely. Ask the fear as it were a some kind of entity:
What do you want to protect me from?
What happens with the loss of control?

Observe what images and stories come up ‘proving’ why it is better not to let go.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the fear?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Asilomar
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:46 pm

Re: Tired of seeking

Postby Asilomar » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:07 pm

Hi Vivien,
I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises in the body. Is there any resistance to any of it?
No, no resistance, only gladness about your clarification and especially about the "quiet joy". Of course. The "I" forgot about states being impermanent. And also total clearness about it being unrealistic that seeing through the self is the end, rather it is the beginning. And that makes "me" quite curious and filled with anticipation really. Curious about what the unfolding and unveiling will be like and what "I" will learn during that process. Perhaps this is only the musings of a self wanting to get enlightened and still be around, but that is was comes up right now.
For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?
Just another fact. The experience of the discovery is bound to fade as it is state-like. Only the realization itself will not be unseen.
Have this REALLY seen, or it is currently rather an intellectual understanding?
It has really been seen. The realization was felt in the body before thoughts arose about it, and also, it was followed by a feeling of something falling away and a surge of energy through the body that lasted throughout the day and then naturally faded away when it spent itself out.
What ‘entering the flow’ means to you?
Feeling like when I paint. After I take up the brush, it is not "me" that is in control but something else. Something that is just clearness about what should be done next, without judgement about what is right or wrong, ugly or pretty, just what is needed just in that moment.
What freedom means to you?
I had a cancer scare a couple of years ago and during three weeks, before the test results came back, I lived in this limbo where I needed to come to grips with the worst case scenario. And I can still remember the feeling of freedom it gave me if I would only have one more year to live. It became so very clear how I would have lived during that time and I instinctively knew what I would have done in the time I had left. The results came back negative, but sometimes, I find myself wishing that they had not, just so that I could have kept that beautiful clarity about what to do next.
What I’d like you to do is to investigate this fear. Examine it closely. Ask the fear as it were a some kind of entity: What do you want to protect me from?
It wants to protect me against madness and finding out that life has no meaning. Both of those are strong fears of the self as they are seen as being strong forces that could annihilate everything, even the will to live.
What happens with the loss of control?
The same as above, madness and chaos.
Observe what images and stories come up ‘proving’ why it is better not to let go.
Being sane and miserable is better than being mad.
If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the fear?
There is only clear space. A nothingness.

Wow, this process is confusing "me", but in a good way. "I" can almost physically feel old brain patterns falling away. Sort of a mushy brain feeling which today has caused an actual headache.

Thank you,
Marie

ps.
What is this ‘me’ that has thoughts?
Where is it?
What is this ‘me’ on the one side of the gap?
These "me" questions I need more time to explore so I'll answer them tomorrow.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4754
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Tired of seeking

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:43 am

Dear Marie,
The experience of the discovery is bound to fade as it is state-like. Only the realization itself will not be unseen.
Yes, exactly. The experience of the discovery may bring up some emotions like joy or happiness, but these are just states, that sooner or later will go away. States come and go like clouds on the sky. However, the realization of ‘no-self’ is not a state, there are no emotions involved. Only the belief in a separate self ‘becomes to’ un-believed. Or rather say, the belief in the self evaporates.
What ‘entering the flow’ means to you?
Feeling like when I paint. After I take up the brush, it is not "me" that is in control but something else. Something that is just clearness about what should be done next, without judgement about what is right or wrong, ugly or pretty, just what is needed just in that moment.
Is there a hidden expectation here that liberation is about being in a constant flow where judging thoughts don’t come up at all?

“I take up the brush, it is not "me" that is in control but something else.” – What is this something else that is in control?
And isn't this the case all the time?
Observe other actions like brushing your teeth, making a cup of tea or coffee, waking on the street.
Is there a ‘you’ that controls these actions, or they just happens as with painting?
And I can still remember the feeling of freedom it gave me if I would only have one more year to live.
Is there a desire or expectation to this ‘feeling of freedom’ to come back?

Whatever was experienced back then, it is over now. And this experience of ‘feeling of freedom’ was also a state. States are fleeting. The realization of ‘no-self’ cannot change. Wanting this experience to come back is a hindrance of seeing what is here, right now.
It wants to protect me against madness and finding out that life has no meaning. Both of those are strong fears of the self as they are seen as being strong forces that could annihilate everything, even the will to live.
This is a story, content of thoughts. Thoughts judge and interpret everything. This is just a fantasy story how things could go wrong in a supposed ‘future’. Stories (thoughts) have nothing to do with ‘reality’. These stories seem to be fearful because it is believed that there is an ‘I’ that could become mad and be annihilated. However, these are just arising thoughts, nothing more, nothing ‘real’. Can you see this?
Being sane and miserable is better than being mad.
Thoughts may suggest this.
But can thoughts know anything?
Are contents of thoughts ‘real’ or just fantasies?
What is this ‘me’ that has thoughts?
Where is it?
What is this ‘me’ on the one side of the gap?
These "me" questions I need more time to explore so I'll answer them tomorrow.
OK, I’ll wait for the answers.

I tend to ask a lot of questions. If any time the amount of questions seems too much please let me know.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Asilomar
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:46 pm

Re: Tired of seeking

Postby Asilomar » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:10 pm

What is this ‘me’ that has thoughts?
The thing that thinks it is driving/controlling this body and its experiences.
Where is it?
I can't find it when I look for it. I got a feeling of it hiding out in the brain somewhere and got a picture of a shadow running and running and trying to hide. But then I remembered that "I" am not my body. This "I" have realized and seen for quite some time, and thus this "me" cannot reside in the brain and thus this feeling and the picture of it hiding there are just thoughts and not real.
What is this ‘me’ on the one side of the gap?
"I" think "I'm" confusing the "me" with the experiencer - oh, look at that, "I" think there is an entity that experience things! Hmm… And looking and feeling right now while writing, "I" still feel that, even though "I" intellectually know that there is just experiencing.
Is there a hidden expectation here that liberation is about being in a constant flow where judging thoughts don’t come up at all?
It seems so.
“I take up the brush, it is not "me" that is in control but something else.” – What is this something else that is in control?
Some kind of flow in the now connected to source/what is.
And isn't this the case all the time?
Again, intellectually "I" know this is true but "I" can't see it.
Observe other actions like brushing your teeth, making a cup of tea or coffee, waking on the street.
Is there a ‘you’ that controls these actions, or they just happens as with painting?
What is confusing is that those activities feel very different from painting. When "I" paint there is only a minimal amount of thoughts, sometimes none. This is not the case when doing other activities.
Gah, this feels frustrating! How to go from knowing intellectually to seeing???
Is there a desire or expectation to this ‘feeling of freedom’ to come back?
So it seems. There is a desire to be free from anxiety about the future.
This is a story, content of thoughts. Thoughts judge and interpret everything. This is just a fantasy story how things could go wrong in a supposed ‘future’. Stories (thoughts) have nothing to do with ‘reality’. These stories seem to be fearful because it is believed that there is an ‘I’ that could become mad and be annihilated. However, these are just arising thoughts, nothing more, nothing ‘real’. Can you see this?
Again, "I" know this intellectually, but can't see it.
But can thoughts know anything?
No. Thoughts can't think (but they are sticky as hell! And there is yet another story…).
Are contents of thoughts ‘real’ or just fantasies?
They are fantasies since they only move in the past and in the future creating stories about how things were or how things are going to be.

Just had an "aha" moment: Is that how thoughts create a self? Building up a veritable fairy tale world of past and present for the self to live in? And thus, the self can only exist in the past and in the future but not in the now? That feels true. And for some reason, it is easer for "me" to see and experience the now when painting but this is actually the way the now "always" is? So seeing through the illusion of the self means to drop away from the fairy tale world and see it as just a thought creation?

Ok, I need to explore and experiment some with this today.

Thank you!

Love,
Marie

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4754
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Tired of seeking

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:36 am

Dear Marie,

Before go deeper into exploration, there are some formalities that we have to get through first.

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

If you are happy to agree to the above we can start to dig. :)

At first about the expectations:
Is there a hidden expectation here that liberation is about being in a constant flow where judging thoughts don’t come up at all?
It seems so.
Liberation is not about not having judging thoughts at all. Rather it is seeing that the so called judging thoughts are nothing more than the content of currently arising thoughts that are passing by, like clouds on the sky. Nothing serious, nothing ‘real’.
There is a desire to be free from anxiety about the future.
This is unlikely to happen. Anxiety can decrease, but anxiety is a result of conditioning and being lost in the content of thoughts (= believing thoughts), which is also a conditioning. At LU we only go so far as no self; but seeing that the self is just an illusion is just the first step, however the most important one. X years of conditioning won’t go away in an instance, but without a centre, a ‘me’, there is nothing they could attach to or stick to, so gradually they fall away. This falling can last until the end of the organism. So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic.

Self-referencing thoughts and stories may arise as a content of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.
When "I" paint there is only a minimal amount of thoughts, sometimes none. This is not the case when doing other activities.
When you paint, that is a state, which comes and goes. ‘Constant flow’ is a state like the ‘quiet joy’. Liberation is not a state. So expecting having a ‘constant flow’ can be a big hindrance.
Gah, this feels frustrating! How to go from knowing intellectually to seeing???
This is our conversation for. We will look ‘behind’ thoughts, or rather say we will examine the actual, direct experience what is prior to thought.

So now, we try to find the ‘owner’ of the body.
We are LOOKing for a real ‘I’. Real is something that can be found.

But at first, as an example, let’s try to find Darth Vader from Star Wars.
We’re looking for a real Darth Vader that can be found.
In order to prove that it exists, we have to experience it directly by seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling.

The image projected to the cinema screen is not it.
The poster on the wall about Darth Vader is not it.
The memory in ‘my head’ about Darth Vader is not a proof of its existence.
A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.
A lego figure of Darth Vader is not a real Darth Vader.
A life size wax figure exhibited in a museum is not it.
A twelve-year old boy dressed in a Darth Vader costume is not it.
What is this ‘me’ that has thoughts?
The thing that thinks it is driving/controlling this body and its experiences.
What is this thing, called ‘me’ that is driving/controlling this body and its experiences?
Where is it exactly?

Try to find it similarly as you would search for Darth Vader.
I can't find it when I look for it. I got a feeling of it hiding out in the brain somewhere and got a picture of a shadow running and running and trying to hide. But then I remembered that "I" am not my body. This "I" have realized and seen for quite some time, and thus this "me" cannot reside in the brain and thus this feeling and the picture of it hiding there are just thoughts and not real.
Yes, mental pictures and thought stories of the brain and a shadow can arise, but they are nothing more than the content of a currently arising mental pictures and thoughts.

Can a mental picture or a thought be the owner of the body?
Can a mental picture or a thought hide somewhere in the body?
“I remembered that ‘I’ am not my body” – is this just a memory, or can this be clearly seen in this moment?
Just had an "aha" moment: Is that how thoughts create a self? Building up a veritable fairy tale world of past and present for the self to live in? And thus, the self can only exist in the past and in the future but not in the now? That feels true. And for some reason, it is easer for "me" to see and experience the now when painting but this is actually the way the now "always" is? So seeing through the illusion of the self means to drop away from the fairy tale world and see it as just a thought creation?
Very good question. :) I leave them to you to find the answers them. We will come back to the topic of past and future later.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Asilomar
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:46 pm

Re: Tired of seeking

Postby Asilomar » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:39 pm

Hi, Vivien,
If you are happy to agree to the above we can start to dig.
I'm happy to agree! :-)
What is this thing, called ‘me’ that is driving/controlling this body and its experiences?
Something that cannot be seen. 'I' feel it being there but that is a 'mental' feeling using none of the five senses. And it is connected to almost every thought and feeling that comes up.
Where is it exactly?
It cannot be found wherever 'I' look. Not in the body, not in the thoughts if 'I' focus on them and not in the feelings if 'I' focus on them. But it is still 'here'. 'I' feel like a dog chasing after its own tail when looking for it. (Which is another story, of course.)
Can a mental picture or a thought be the owner of the body?
No, they cannot be the owner of the body. They can however give rise to other thoughts and feelings if they are believed and left unquestioned.
Can a mental picture or a thought hide somewhere in the body?
No, they just pass though the body somehow if they are not attached to or get hooked by other thoughts.
“I remembered that ‘I’ am not my body” – is this just a memory, or can this be clearly seen in this moment?
'I'm pretty sure this is seen. When I feel myself sitting on a chair it is clear to 'me' that it is my body sitting there, not 'me'. And it is an easy thing to remember and that brings 'me' into the present moment.
Just had an "aha" moment: Is that how thoughts create a self? Building up a veritable fairy tale world of past and present for the self to live in? And thus, the self can only exist in the past and in the future but not in the now? That feels true. And for some reason, it is easer for "me" to see and experience the now when painting but this is actually the way the now "always" is? So seeing through the illusion of the self means to drop away from the fairy tale world and see it as just a thought creation?

Very good question. :) I leave them to you to find the answers them.
Right now, when reading this again, these questions seem to be just another story that has arisen as the 'me' tries to explain what it is to itself.

Today it was difficult to answer your questions with more than yes/no answers. It feels like 'I'm loosing 'my' language and that whatever 'I' say or write is either untrue or so imprecise that it is meaningless to try to express anything with language. There is a constricting feeling in the chest of the body as 'I' write this. And a numbness is also felt in the chest and throat.

Love,
Marie

User avatar
Asilomar
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:46 pm

Re: Tired of seeking

Postby Asilomar » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:57 pm

And that last bit that I wrote:
Today it was difficult to answer your questions with more than yes/no answers. It feels like 'I'm loosing 'my' language and that whatever 'I' say or write is either untrue or so imprecise that it is meaningless to try to express anything with language. There is a constricting feeling in the chest of the body as 'I' write this. And a numbness is also felt in the chest and throat.
Was more story that was left unquestioned and thus gave rise to feelings. This 'me' is so tricky!!!

Love,
Marie

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4754
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Tired of seeking

Postby Vivien » Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:19 am

Dear Marie,
Vivien: What is this thing, called ‘me’ that is driving/controlling this body and its experiences?
Marie: Something that cannot be seen. 'I' feel it being there but that is a 'mental' feeling using none of the five senses. And it is connected to almost every thought and feeling that comes up.
Observe closely this ‘mental feeling’. Can it be really felt?
Can anything be felt mentally, or just thoughts suggest this?
It cannot be found wherever 'I' look. Not in the body, not in the thoughts if 'I' focus on them and not in the feelings if 'I' focus on them. But it is still 'here'.
Where? - Don’t leave any stones unturned.
How it is known that “it is still here”?
'I'm pretty sure this is seen. When I feel myself sitting on a chair it is clear to 'me' that it is my body sitting there, not 'me'. And it is an easy thing to remember and that brings 'me' into the present moment.
Good :)
Is there anything outside of the present moment?
Is that how thoughts create a self? Building up a veritable fairy tale world of past and present for the self to live in? And thus, the self can only exist in the past and in the future but not in the now? That feels true. And for some reason, it is easer for "me" to see and experience the now when painting but this is actually the way the now "always" is? So seeing through the illusion of the self means to drop away from the fairy tale world and see it as just a thought creation?
What is past?
What is future?

OK then, investigate thoughts. Please go through all the questions one-by-one. Take your time.

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Asilomar
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:46 pm

Re: Tired of seeking

Postby Asilomar » Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:32 pm

Dear Vivien,
Observe closely this ‘mental feeling’. Can it be really felt?
No.
Can anything be felt mentally, or just thoughts suggest this?
No, it is just an illusion created by thoughts.

Where? - Don’t leave any stones unturned.
How it is known that “it is still here”?
I've SEEn through the illusion! There is no 'I', never was and never will be. Wow...
Is there anything outside of the present moment?
No, the present moment is all there is and ever was.
What is past?
It doesn't exist, it is just an illusion created by thoughts from which conditioning was/is created when these thoughts were believed and turned into stories.
What is future?
It doesn't exist, it is just an illusion created by thoughts.
Where thoughts come from?
Who knows, they just appear and then disappear, like soap bubbles, clouds in sky or waves on the beach.
Where are they going?
I don't know, they just come and pass through the body. How knows where they go after that.
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
No.
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
No.
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
No, thoughts just arise on their own accord, pass by and disappear, there is no 'I' involved in the process.
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
The 'I' isn't anything because the 'I' does not exist!!!! :-D
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
No, the thinker of the thought cannot be found because there is no thinker, it doesn't exist, have never existed and will never come into existence.
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
YES!!!!
Do you think thoughts or do thoughts think you?
Neither, thoughts just arise, go by and disappear.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
No, that is not possible, thoughts just arise and so does the illusion of an 'I'.

Thank you so, so much!!

Wow, everything is really the same but also totally different! Such an incredible relief and a sense of freedom and lightness - a falling every so gently forever after.

So much love,
Marie

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4754
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Tired of seeking

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:58 am

Dear Marie,

:)
I don't know, they just come and pass through the body.
Here, we can dig a bit deeper, if you like.

Here is an interesting exercise with the body.
With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in the actual experience?

Is there a hearer of sounds, or just hearing?
Is there a see-er of sights, or just seeing?
Is there a smeller of smells, or just smelling?
Is there a taster of tastes, or just tasting?
Is there a feeler of sensation, or just sensation?
Is there a thinker of thoughts or just thinking?
Is there an experiencer of experience (this life)...or just life?
Wow, everything is really the same but also totally different! Such an incredible relief and a sense of freedom and lightness - a falling every so gently forever after.
I’m happy for you :)

Here are some further questions that we haven’t covered yet.

Do ‘you’ have responsibly for anything?
Do ‘others’ have responsibility for anything?
What are ‘others’ in direct experience?

Investigate ‘decision making’ whatever ‘you’ do today (like getting up, washing teeth, making a cup of coffee).
How does the decision happen?

Take your time with the questions; it's a bit lot :)

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Asilomar
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:46 pm

Re: Tired of seeking

Postby Asilomar » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:08 pm

Dear Vivien,

Wanted to let you know how nice it is to work with someone sitting on the other side of the globe. I post a reply in the evening and then the next morning there is a reply that I get to ponder during the day. A lovely setup! :-)
Can it be known how tall the body is?
No, there are no felt boundaries of where the body starts and ends and 'tall' is just label that has no meaning in DE.
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?
No, same as tallness. Only the sensation of 'pressure downwards' (wherever downwards is but there is a sense of 'gravity')' can be felt.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
No, a boundary cannot be sensed.
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
No, only sensations of 'pressure downwards' and 'contact'.
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, there is actually no DE of the body existing when the eyes are closed, only sensations. (So the body is also an illusionary construct?? Holy shit….)
Is there an inside or outside?
Nope.
What is the body in the actual experience?
Nothing, ha, ha!
Is there a hearer of sounds, or just hearing?
Just hearing.
Is there a see-er of sights, or just seeing?
Just seeing.
Is there a smeller of smells, or just smelling?
Just smelling.
Is there a taster of tastes, or just tasting?
Just tasting.
Is there a feeler of sensation, or just sensation?
Just sensations.
Is there a thinker of thoughts or just thinking?
Just thinking.
Is there an experiencer of experience (this life)...or just life?
Just life. But this one is 'sticker' than the others and it is easier to get lost in believing that there is an experiencer of life.
Do ‘you’ have responsibly for anything?
Since there is no 'I', there is no 'I' to be responsible for anything. And this really does a number on this 'entity's' conditioning - no personal responsibility, no morals, no ethics??? And yet, there is the clear seeing in DE that there is no right or wrong, since these are only labels - very sticky ones, but labels nonetheless. (Gulp, 'I'm in for the ride of 'my' life aren't 'I'…)
Do ‘others’ have responsibility for anything?
Since 'I' don't, 'they' can't have responsibility either.
What are ‘others’ in direct experience?
Only experiences of sight, sound, smell, taste and touch. (And now there is stepping through the looking glass for reals. Hello Alice, what are 'we' and where are 'we' existing?? More story, 'I' know, 'I' know.)
How does the decision happen?
'I' have no idea, there is no sense of decision making, things just 'happen'. 'I' have no clear sense of first deciding what is going to happen or thinking "now I'm going to make myself a cup of tea." (Perhaps the impulse comes through thought but that would imply that there are different kinds of thoughts with different kinds of content?? Or is this just another story being made up in order to explain what is not explainable?)

'I'm confused and flabbergasted about it all right now. And very excited! :-)

Love,
Marie

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4754
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Tired of seeking

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:17 am

Dear Marie,
Wanted to let you know how nice it is to work with someone sitting on the other side of the globe. I post a reply in the evening and then the next morning there is a reply that I get to ponder during the day. A lovely setup! :-)
Yes, the wonders of life. :)
Yes, this is a general assumption that there is somebody sitting of the other side who wrote me these words.

But in your actual experience, is there a ‘Vivien’ that wrote all of these, or are there only letters on the screen?
What is the ‘proof’ that this was written by her?
What is the ‘proof’ that this has ever been written?
Only the sensation of 'pressure downwards' (wherever downwards is but there is a sense of 'gravity')' can be felt.
How ‘gravity’ is experienced with the 5 senses?
Can ‘gravity’ be experienced at all?
Or ‘the sense of gravity’ is just a mental label put onto the felt sensation?
Does the sensation itself imply in any way that “this is the sense of gravity”?
Vivien: Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Marie: No, only sensations of 'pressure downwards' and 'contact'.
Observe this ‘contact’.
Does the felt sensation itself suggest in any way that ‘this is contact’?
Or just arising thoughts and mental images suggest this?
When sitting on a chair, is there a ‘chair’ or a ‘body’ in the actual experience?
Or there is only the sensation, or sensing?
No, there is actually no DE of the body existing when the eyes are closed, only sensations.
What if the eyes open?
Does a body emerge when the eyes are open?
Just life. But this one is 'sticker' than the others and it is easier to get lost in believing that there is an experiencer of life.
Good to notice this. When the illusion of the sense of experiencer noticed, it can be observed how it ‘operates’.
Since there is no 'I', there is no 'I' to be responsible for anything. And this really does a number on this 'entity's' conditioning - no personal responsibility, no morals, no ethics???
Has this been clearly seen, or it is rather a logical conclusion that there is no responsibility, since there is no ‘I’?
Which sounds ‘truer’, “there is no responsibility, because there is no ‘I’” or “there is no responsibility, because there is no responsibility”?

Please observe today how the ‘sense of responsibility’ emerges, and report back what comes up.
Vivien: Do ‘others’ have responsibility for anything?
Marie: Since 'I' don't, 'they' can't have responsibility either.
Has this been clearly seen, or this is rather a logical conclusion?

Next time when you talk to someone you can observe this:
There is a sound (voice of the other) and a sight that is labelled as the 'other body'. But, is there any link between the sound and the sight, meaning that the sound is coming from that sight (the other) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Are there others independently from ‘my’ interpretation?

Are there any areas you would like to examine, or questions that you have?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest