Guide Please?

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Jadela
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Guide Please?

Postby Jadela » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:42 am

Hello,

My name is Jade. I am 22, and I would like to see past the illusion. Can anyone please help me with this task?

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ElPortal
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Re: Guide Please?

Postby ElPortal » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:36 am

Hi Jade,

Welcome to LU. What brings you here?

I could accompany you.

First could you read and agree to the following:

1. Post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!" If you can't for some reason, just let me know.
2. I am not your teacher; all I can do is point. You look, until clear seeing happens.
3. Look deeply and honestly, then respond with 100% honesty. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Respond as simply and directly as possible from immediate personal experience only (felt senses and observed thoughts). Avoid long-winded analytical and philosophical and stream-of-consciousness answers which may even hinder progress.
5. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; this is invaluable in referring to things that have been written in previous posts. See these instructions:- viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too - http://www.liberationunleashed.com Please take a look at that.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above, agree to them, and would still like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.

Also it would be handy to know which time zone you are in. I am in France: Central European Time (= GMT+1).

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Jadela
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Re: Guide Please?

Postby Jadela » Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:50 pm

Hi Mark,
Welcome to LU. What brings you here?
I don’t remember how I stumbled upon LU, but it happened around a year ago. I wasn’t ready to actually post until now. I first heard about no-self when I read some Eckhart Tolle and since then I can understand that ‘there is no I’ intellectually, but I don’t ‘feel it’.
1. Post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!" If you can't for some reason, just let me know.
2. I am not your teacher; all I can do is point. You look, until clear seeing happens.
3. Look deeply and honestly, then respond with 100% honesty. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Respond as simply and directly as possible from immediate personal experience only (felt senses and observed thoughts). Avoid long-winded analytical and philosophical and stream-of-consciousness answers which may even hinder progress.
5. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; this is invaluable in referring to things that have been written in previous posts. See these instructions:- viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
I have read everything and I agree to the terms.
If you could confirm you have seen all the above, agree to them, and would still like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.
Thank you for taking the time to help.
Also it would be handy to know which time zone you are in. I am in France: Central European Time (= GMT+1).
I am in the United States-- Eastern Time Zone (GMT -4 hours)


Jade

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ElPortal
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Re: Guide Please?

Postby ElPortal » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:35 pm

Hi Jade,

Thanks for that.
I can understand that ‘there is no I’ intellectually, but I don’t ‘feel it’.

a). How do you know, say right now, that you don't feel it? What do you feel right now?

b). How is Jade recognised, (that I) the one being referred to when you write 'I don't feel it'?

We are going to look at two types of experience: 1) direct, first-hand NOW experience, the sensations which come up in the moment - this is all that can actually be KNOWN i.e. experienced now, and 2) indirect, second-hand experience: this is thought, passed on by thinking, conditioning, other teachings, assumptions... and actually isn't experience at all, but is often assumed to be such.

Let's practise this: as you sit there, looking at this message, please list down for 5 minutes, 1. all the experiences (sensations) which are Direct Experience (label each of these E) and 2. everything else, which is not (e.g. in thought). (Label these T).

Now consider your answers to a) and b). Are those answers E or T?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Jadela
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Re: Guide Please?

Postby Jadela » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:17 pm

a). How do you know, say right now, that you don't feel it? What do you feel right now?
I suppose that ‘I’ assume that once the illusion is seen for what it is, ‘I’ will feel more like an observer rather than a ‘me’ wrapped up in the story of Jade.

Right now I feel sad, but there isn’t a reason that I can directly point to. Its just kind of a heavy feeling that is behind the eyes. Not sure if that is what you were looking for?

b). How is Jade recognised, (that I) the one being referred to when you write 'I don't feel it'?
Jade is recognized mostly with thoughts. I associate her with most of the thoughts that come up and the feelings that follow the thoughts.
Let's practise this: as you sit there, looking at this message, please list down for 5 minutes, 1. all the experiences (sensations) which are Direct Experience (label each of these E) and 2. everything else, which is not (e.g. in thought). (Label these T).
Hands touching keys. -E
Typing –E
Reading- E
Feet are cold- E
Sound of cicadas out the window- E
Thought comes up: “what should I say” - T
Arms touching table- E
Breathing -E
Feeling of nervousness -E
Thought “Ive got so much school work”-T
Anxiety following that thought -E

Now consider your answers to a) and b). Are those answers E or T?
Both answers to A and B would be labeled T

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ElPortal
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Re: Guide Please?

Postby ElPortal » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:54 pm

Hi Jade,

Thanks for that reply. Enjoying the succinctness and the honesty so far. Keep it up! I will often number or letter the various points so that all can be addressed clearly (even if a really brief answer is all that you feel is needed).
Both answers to A and B would be labeled T
Well spotted! So would you like to try to answer those two questions again, but just from Direct Experience, rather than from assumptions, thought, imagination or what you may have read or been taught by someone else?

C. Thoughts and intellectual understanding (T) are only ever going to lead to an intellectual understanding aren't they? Can you agree with me that we need to look into the actual first-hand NOW experience (E) to find the real answer?

D.
'I’ will feel more like an observer
.
Not sure where this has come from but it sounds a bit theoretical. What would this observer be, in Direct Experience?

E. Well done for spotting the 'sadness', the 'kind of a heavy feeling that is behind the eyes' (E). When the emotional judgements were left aside could you notice any aliveness or energy in the 'bodily' sensations themselves?

F. As you sit now, again please spend 5 more minutes again listing all that is going on in all the senses, then labelling with (E) or (T). I would like you to get used to looking into what is going on in this way. (Of course in our very communication we must use words, which are labels and so involve some sort of a thought, but we will have to allow this in order to proceed!).

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Jadela
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Re: Guide Please?

Postby Jadela » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:28 pm

Hi again,
So would you like to try to answer those two questions again, but just from Direct Experience, rather than from assumptions, thought, imagination or what you may have read or been taught by someone else?
a). How do you know, say right now, that you don't feel it? What do you feel right now?
Yes, these are difficult to answer without using thought or analysis. Whenever there is an attempt to feel, all that can be said is that there is a pulling feeling down in the throat. Its behind the chest.
When the emotional judgements were left aside could you notice any aliveness or energy in the 'bodily' sensations themselves?
Yes! Just now, we the pulling in the throat feeling, I found that I’m constantly trying to label every bodily sensation (sad, anxious, scared), especially when the sensations are ‘feelings’. Aliveness is a good description for the sensations that occur whenever feelings arise.
b). How is Jade recognised, (that I) the one being referred to when you write 'I don't feel it'?
There isn’t really any recognition of Jade when there is no thinking. When there is no thought—I don’t feel Jade, in fact, I don’t really feel like anything or anyone. Stuff is just happing and there is perception.

However, as soon as thoughts come, there is kind of a shift to ‘this is me talking and thinking’. And that self-awareness is an automatic thing. I don’t try to think, “hey! this thought is yours”. Its more like there is just this reflexive attachment to the thoughts as if it belongs to something. (sorry if I am rambling. I understand that this second part of the answer is labeled T…)
Can you agree with me that we need to look into the actual first-hand NOW experience (E) to find the real answer?
Yes, for sure.
Not sure where this has come from but it sounds a bit theoretical. What would this observer be, in Direct Experience?
There is no observer in direct experience. Just experience.
F. As you sit now, again please spend 5 more minutes again listing all that is going on in all the senses, then labelling with (E) or (T).
Itch on leg…-E
Sound of wind from window- E
Hand flexes –E
Tightness in muscle –E
Coldness of arms –E
Sounds of car out the window –E
More pulling sensations down in throat –E
Thoughts arise in head above eyes-E
I would like you to get used to looking into what is going on in this way. (Of course in our very communication we must use words, which are labels and so involve some sort of a thought, but we will have to allow this in order to proceed!).
This exercise is helpful. It helps to actually notice what is going on in and around the body. However, it is difficult to remain focused simply on sensations without thought in the process, because as soon as I perceive the sensations, thoughts arise about how to label them in type form.


Thanks,
Jade

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ElPortal
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Re: Guide Please?

Postby ElPortal » Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:08 pm

Hi Jade

Great observations!
Yes! Just now, we the pulling in the throat feeling, I found that I’m constantly trying to label every bodily sensation (sad, anxious, scared), especially when the sensations are ‘feelings’. Aliveness is a good description for the sensations that occur whenever feelings arise.
Very good!
1. Ok so you have noticed these type of sensations: tightness, in the throat or behind the eyes, some sadness etc. The next time something like this happens eg a tightening, some sadness or anxiety, please stop and take note. Instead of resisting it let the process happen: it may have work to do. THIS is the alive experience of the moment. Follow these 5 steps a) Notice the story of the emotion and then look behind that to the sensations. b) Even if they seem difficult, stay with the sensations, embracing them like friend(s) or little children who have come for a cuddle, noticing its/their aliveness. Note their position in the body, any shape, qualities and movement. c) Even ask it whether it has something more to show you (pay attention to any images or references, and any other sensations that arise also). d) Let it stay as long as it likes, and go when it is ready. e) Report back to me.
This exercise is helpful. It helps to actually notice what is going on in and around the body. However, it is difficult to remain focused simply on sensations without thought in the process, because as soon as I perceive the sensations, thoughts arise about how to label them in type form.
2. Did I say to try to stop any thoughts in the process? So where is the list of thoughts (T) which try to label all the sensations? There is nothing wrong with thoughts, especially when they are noticed to be just that: thoughts.

Let's take this exercise a little further: I would like you to spend another 5 minutes (or maybe as long as 10 if you like), noticing all that actually seems to be going on again. In fact get used to doing this regularly as we dialogue. With each sensation, eg "Coldness of arms", notice the labels which emerge, eg 'Coldness', and look behind the label for the aliveness of the sensation which seems to be taking place. Same with 'arms': notice that the word 'arms' refers to something which seem to have a position, then look behind the labels to the alive experience which is going on. Then, whenever thoughts present themselves, trying to describe the perceptions or make sense of them or making any other commentary at all, just note down 'thought about....". Then again, go afterwards and label E and T.
When there is no thought—I don’t feel Jade, in fact, I don’t really feel like anything or anyone.
3. So, from what you have written, it sounds as though there is no such thing recognised as Jade, except as a thought. Is that right? Is it possible that Life has wither misunderstood itself to be a Jade, or is playing at being a Jade? Is it possible that the alive experiences of the present moment (note that they are ALWAYS in the present moment) have mistaken themselves (intentionally or unintentionally ;-) ) to be a 'me'?

So, continuing our earlier point, can you point me to anything which IS Jade, other than the experiencing of this moment?

Are you up for hunting around to see if can find any real 'you' can be found? This is very different from rationalising, intellectualising or debating. This is about honest, earnest looking.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Jadela
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Re: Guide Please?

Postby Jadela » Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:16 pm

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the great questions. I have a lot of work to catch up on today, so I'll have to respond to them tomorrow.

Take care,
Jade

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ElPortal
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Re: Guide Please?

Postby ElPortal » Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:32 am

Hi Jade,

Thanks for keeping in touch. Yes, quite a lot in there this time. Take your time and I look forward to hearing from you tomorrow.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Jadela
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Re: Guide Please?

Postby Jadela » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:14 am

Hi Mark,
1. The next time something like this happens eg a tightening, some sadness or anxiety, please stop and take note. Instead of resisting it let the process happen: it may have work to do. THIS is the alive experience of the moment.
So, whenever some sort of feeling has come up in these last few days I made sure to do what you have said. Lots of different sensations/feelings have come up in the body. Especially when reading your posts. Lots of heaviness, pulling, tightening sensations in various parts of the body (the head, the arms, the stomach, the chest). Sometimes they feel like frantic balls of energy bouncing around. Other times they feel just like heavy forces pulling down. The story behind them is generally fear, and anxiety. But when I make a point to simply feel them, they don’t seem as bad/scary as I used to think of them. When I attempt to ‘ask’ them what they are doing I generally get the idea that they are protecting ‘Jade’ from…well I can’t quite put a finger on it. In general most of the sensations follow thoughts like, “what’s going to happen?” or “something bad might happen.” Even though in the present everything is just fine.
Let's take this exercise a little further: I would like you to spend another 5 minutes (or maybe as long as 10 if you like), noticing all that actually seems to be going on again.
Yawn- E
Thoughts about being sleepy -T
Hand moves -E
Feet moves-E
Head turns -E
Chirps from window-E
Telephone rings-E
Chest moves up and down-E
Smell of cigarette-E
Thought about quitting smoking-T
Alivness feeling in feet-E
Jerking of arm-E
Thoughts about a book arise-T
Typing occurs-E
Sounds of keyboard clicking -E
Fingers wiggle-E
Laughing -E
Smile-E
Thoughts about steadying breathing-T
With each sensation, eg "Coldness of arms", notice the labels which emerge, eg 'Coldness', and look behind the label for the aliveness of the sensation which seems to be taking place. Same with 'arms': notice that the word 'arms' refers to something which seem to have a position, then look behind the labels to the alive experience which is going on.
Struggling with this a bit. I can look past the labels and just feel/see whats going on in some instances, but at other times thoughts take over the attention and I get lost in them too much to notice what else is going on.
3. So, from what you have written, it sounds as though there is no such thing recognised as Jade, except as a thought. Is that right? Is it possible that Life has wither misunderstood itself to be a Jade, or is playing at being a Jade? Is it possible that the alive experiences of the present moment (note that they are ALWAYS in the present moment) have mistaken themselves (intentionally or unintentionally ;-) ) to be a 'me'?
While reading this, there is a lot of confusion going on. In direct experience, there is no I. There is just things going on, breathing, moving, sensations, ect. But once thoughts arise, it still feels as though an ‘I’ is thinking them. “I am thinking thoughts about me.” The best way to describe it is that there is a feeling of getting lost in thoughts.
So, continuing our earlier point, can you point me to anything which IS Jade, other than the experiencing of this moment?
I cannot point to anything that is a ‘me’.
Are you up for hunting around to see if can find any real 'you' can be found? This is very different from rationalising, intellectualising or debating. This is about honest, earnest looking.
I’m up for it. Ready to look.

Sorry for all of my confusion today,

Jade

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ElPortal
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Re: Guide Please?

Postby ElPortal » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:42 pm

Hi Jade

Thanks for the response. We have family staying for a day or two longer so the response may take a little longer this time.. we'll see. Just letting you know.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Jadela
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Re: Guide Please?

Postby Jadela » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:38 pm

Thank you for letting me know Mark.

Take all of the time you need getting back to me.

Enjoy your family!

Jade

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Re: Guide Please?

Postby ElPortal » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:38 am

Hi Jade,

Thanks for 'bearing with'.
So, whenever some sort of feeling has come up in these last few days I made sure to do what you have said.
Excellent. Let me know if anything in particular comes up. Yes, fear of the unknown is of course perfectly normal (otherwise we wouldn't pay to go on theme-park rides and to watch exciting films, right?). Is it not just part of the 'passage into the unknown'? Kind of a rites of passage....
But once thoughts arise, it still feels as though an ‘I’ is thinking them. “I am thinking thoughts about me.
Hasn't upbringing, conditioning, our way of life given us these cues all along? Is there truly a "feeling as though an 'I'", or is this just a believed thought, which has thus been mistaken as real? Is there anything wrong with thoughts? Do they have to be believed?
Ok now an exercise. Let's look to see if this 'I' can be found in direct experience. Let's look in the bodily experiences. Let's take your list from before:
Yawn- E
Thoughts about being sleepy -T
Hand moves -E
Feet moves-E
Head turns -E
Chirps from window-E
Telephone rings-E
Chest moves up and down-E
Smell of cigarette-E
Thought about quitting smoking-T
Alivness feeling in feet-E
Jerking of arm-E
Thoughts about a book arise-T
Typing occurs-E
Sounds of keyboard clicking -E
Fingers wiggle-E
Laughing -E
Smile-E
Thoughts about steadying breathing-T
Go down the list (or do a new one, if you prefer, in THIS moment), sensing each of these in the direct, first-hand experience. Take time with each. Answer honestly, as you look and sense: are any of these 'Jade'? eg are the body parts Jade? Do the sensations show a Jade? Although thoughts claim to refer to a 'Jade' is there a real Jade there being referred to, or is it all a story? Is there in reality anything more than Life happening 'at a location taken to be Jade'?
Now try to describe the centre of attention that is noticing all these things. Where in the body does that seem to be? Look deeply: can an actual 'me' be found there? ... or is it just an 'apparent centre of attention'? Is even that anything more than Life's flow, appearing as an 'apparent centre of attention'?

Again we are looking at the direct experience, and noticing its immediacy as contrasted with the thinking, which always refers to things second-hand.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Jadela
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Re: Guide Please?

Postby Jadela » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:12 am

Hasn't upbringing, conditioning, our way of life given us these cues all along? Is there truly a "feeling as though an 'I'", or is this just a believed thought, which has thus been mistaken as real?
Yes, indeed. It definitely seems conditioned. Its not so much a feeling that there is an 'I'. It is just a thought that is constantly putting itself at the center of every thought. Essentially, every thought is an 'I' thought. But that doesn't actually make thought an 'I'. They are just sort of these little blurbs or pictures that come up from below into the head.
Is there anything wrong with thoughts?
No. They can't be right or wrong. They are just there. Sometimes they accompany feelings which make them feel good or bad (or right or wrong). However, as I mentioned a few days ago, when feelings are really just felt and not judged, they aren't bad or good either. They are also just present.

Do they have to be believed?
Well no. But based on present experience, when I cannot find an I in physical reality, there would be no one to believe them anyway. It is more like a pattern of thoughts about other thoughts. Kind of like a chain reaction. That seems to be where a belief happens.
Go down the list (or do a new one, if you prefer, in THIS moment), sensing each of these in the direct, first-hand experience. Take time with each. Answer honestly, as you look and sense: are any of these 'Jade'? eg are the body parts Jade? Do the sensations show a Jade? Although thoughts claim to refer to a 'Jade' is there a real Jade there being referred to, or is it all a story?
The body parts that were referred to are not Jade (arms, feet, ect.). I used think of the body as mine, like it was something I owned. "My body". But it doesn't seem like I can find any 'I' to own them though. When I was answering this question, I spent a lot of time focused various part of the body. Without focusing on any of the labels of specific parts, it seemed that there were simply parts. And not really anyone to own them. They were just there to do their thing: feel, move, sit, run, talk, ect.

Sensations are just sensations. When something cold is in the hand, there is an awareness of the perception 'cold'. But in direct experience, it doesn't seem to be happening to anyone. It is just happening. It is just felt.

Jade is just a story. A really persistent one, but a story nonetheless.Thoughts seem to try and find how 'jade' fits into everything. I will admit, it took me a really long time to answer these questions. For a good hour I was just sitting there asking myself "Am I my body?". But then I realized that wasn't going to get me anywhere because it just led to theorizing. I think it helped when I stopped trying to label everything (hand, my hand, hand does typing) and just focus on feeling the perceptions.
Is there in reality anything more than Life happening 'at a location taken to be Jade'?
I'm not sure how to answer this one. It's difficult for me to think or feel in the broad sense of 'life happening'. But it certainly seems that 'things', such as feelings, thoughts, sights, sounds, and touching, are happening.
Now try to describe the centre of attention that is noticing all these things. Where in the body does that seem to be?
It seems to be located in the head, behind the eyes.
Look deeply: can an actual 'me' be found there? ... or is it just an 'apparent centre of attention'? Is even that anything more than Life's flow, appearing as an 'apparent centre of attention'?
The only thing I can really say to these questions is that there seems to be just empty space there. Perceptions seems to be happening around this center of attention. But perceptions can never actually reach that empty space where the center is. I'd like to look deeper into this question, but I don't really know how.

Later, and thanks,
Jade


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