I am requesting a guide.

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Sharont6
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I am requesting a guide.

Postby Sharont6 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:08 pm

I have been reading through The Gateless Gatecrashers and several times really felt that "I" got it. And then the feeling would dissipate. I do not see the self when I look, but I still feel a "me" presence. I seem to be stuck on the belief that I am my thoughts. I feel like I can control them to some extent. ????? But mostly, they do arise all by themselves. There is something I can't quite let go of. Lifelong theme, I think. So I am stuck between intellectually knowing but not having the experience.

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smudge
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Re: I am requesting a guide.

Postby smudge » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:38 am

Hi Sharon,

I would love to guide you, lets begin by an intro as to your journey so far if thats OK.
I too came via the headless route and clarified some subtle identification that was still going on via LU.

Warm wishes
Smudge
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Sharont6
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Re: I am requesting a guide.

Postby Sharont6 » Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:14 pm

Thank you so much for accepting my request. I have been on a spiritual path for over 20 years and I can't really tell that I've progressed very far. I live in the Bible Belt of the South (USA) so I have very few people I talk about my journey with and no one to guide me. I use books and the Internet! I was led to ACIM 20 years ago but didn't understand it! But last year it began to make sense. I am studying it every day now.
I have also been using the Law of Attraction for about 20 years but now I question that. If there is no controller LOA can't work either right?
I retired last year (from teaching) and devote a large portion of time to seeking. Butterflies Are Free, the Jed McKenna books and the The Gateless Gatecrashers, which led me to this website.
Is this enough info?

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Re: I am requesting a guide.

Postby smudge » Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:41 pm

That helps me tune in, thanks.

So lets begin this journey!
We need to agree on a few formalities for us to contract:
can we both agree to post at least once a day, unless we let each other know otherwise? Im in the UK so maybe a 5 or 6 hr timezone change (I 'm literally just back from a retreat in Colorado..I love America so Im still kind of in that zone)

I will ask you questions and you will respond with upmost honesty. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

Lastly, Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

Then, write me any reasons you are motivated to do this enquiry and also any expectations you have about what seeing through the illusion of self fully will be like.

Look forward to hearing
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Sharont6
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Re: I am requesting a guide.

Postby Sharont6 » Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:51 pm

I can not get the quote function to work the way I want it to, I'll try later.

As to what motivates me, this is where I was led. I wanted a deeper understanding of the "unconscious" and over the last year, this is where I found myself. I think my underlying intent was to end this fruitless search. Well, I think this will end it! I consciously didn't choose this path because I felt unworthy. I would never have believed it within my reach. (Obviously, the false self talking!)
The expectations I had were totally shattered reading The Gateless Gatecrashers. I was expecting all the bells and whistles, total union with God, a mystic experience, I guess. When I realized how ordinary the experience might be, I had a few moments of doubt. I thought, "Do I really want to turn my world upside down if there's no big pay off in the end?" Ultimately, there is no decision to be made or it was made for me??? I don't know. All I know for sure right now, in this moment is, I must see this through.

I am available each day to post.
So I can't read my daily lesson from ACIM??
Ok! Here we go.

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Re: I am requesting a guide.

Postby smudge » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:06 pm

All I know for sure right now, in this moment is, I must see this through.
Good start, the truth, whatever it means..

So when you reading...'there is no me, no self, no controller in here, none as in Zero...and there never has been and there never will be...what comes up?

Look forward to hearing
Smudge
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Sharont6
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Re: I am requesting a guide.

Postby Sharont6 » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:26 pm

I don't know if it's frustration, or maybe a dreading, but there is a knot in the stomach and tightness in the chest. I wasted all those years planning, setting goals, writing affirmations, etc. and for nothing? But then I think about the times that things did change or I received what I wanted even though it seemed impossible. How does that fit with "no controller"? Am I just overthinking again? I do that a lot.

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Re: I am requesting a guide.

Postby smudge » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:35 pm

To make sure we are talking the same language please do this exercise before answering the next question:
Take a sultana (or small piece of food) and look at it, now close your eyes and think about it, how 'did' it look? what do you 'think' it will taste like? How do you feel about the prospect of eating it or even about doing this exercise? Now put it in your mouth and directly experience it. Whats that like? What is the difference between thinking about, feeling and actually experiencing from this exercise?


Ok, so frustration, dread are the emotions that come up..sounds like confusion too

Physically: in the body a knot in the stomach

Story/thought:
I wasted all those years planning, setting goals, writing affirmations, etc. and for nothing. But then I think about the times that things did change
So a play of thoughts, feeling and sensations going on. This IS happening. Lets look for an I doing all this..so wheres the I in any of this..what I'ness is found in Direst experience in emotions, sensations in the body and thought?

Looking forward to hearing back,
Smudge
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Sharont6
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Re: I am requesting a guide.

Postby Sharont6 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:36 pm

Take a sultana (or small piece of food) and look at it, now close your eyes and think about it, how 'did' it look? what do you 'think' it will taste like? How do you feel about the prospect of eating it or even about doing this exercise? Now put it in your mouth and directly experience it. Whats that like? What is the difference between thinking about, feeling and actually experiencing from this exercise?
(I still can't get the quote function to work!)

When I close my eyes the food doesn't appear, just an impression of it. I can almost taste it if I focus really hard. The word "illusion" comes to mind, not real. But when I actually place it in my mouth it becomes a full experience. Full as in taste, smell, texture. A part of me seems to come alive as I experience it. (Maybe that's why eating is such an enjoyable experience. I never really thought about it this way.) the difference was like night and day. A shadow versus sunshine, maybe. It was a real experience, not fake.

"So a play of thoughts, feeling and sensations going on. This IS happening. Lets look for an I doing all this..so wheres the I in any of this..what I'ness is found in Direst experience in emotions, sensations in the body and thought?
Once again, to me, the I'ness feels like it is in my thoughts. There is no actual I that I can see. No direct experience of a me. Just a mind full of thoughts from the minute I wake up. Sometimes the thoughts even wake me up in the middle of the night. Always there.

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Re: I am requesting a guide.

Postby smudge » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:14 pm

So direct experienced is full and alive, thoughts about it isn't. Good that the difference is clear and important.
So when you say 'I feels like thoughts' ,what is going on in direct experience of 'feels like'(its already clear there's no I in thought, just a story about one yes?)? Focus in on feelings and then see if there is an I to be found feeling these feelings. Take time to look deeply in the here and now.


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"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Re: I am requesting a guide.

Postby Sharont6 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:48 pm

So....
False self=imagining eating
Awareness=full experience of eating
Is that what I'm noticing?
So when you say 'I feels like thoughts' ,what is going on in direct experience of 'feels like'.
If I understand correctly, you are asking what is the experience I feel when all the talking is going on inside my head???
If so, I will try to describe it. If not, please clarify.
1st--I am tense, always tense in the stomach, no matter what the thoughts are-good or bad.
2nd--There is also tension in my head. My focus seems to live there. (Which is probably why I think this is "me".)
3rd--I hold my breath while waiting for an insight or answer to be presented.
4th--I think all the thoughts make me nervous, waiting to see if "I'm " right or not!

If I take away the idea that I am my thoughts, there is nothing there. The thoughts stop. I think they lose power or something. Wierd. Tried it again and the same thing happened.
When the thoughts stop, there is just awareness that they stopped. No judgement, just awareness.
(If it helps to understand my obsession with thoughts, I was a science teacher for 25 years. Logic. Logic. Logic.)

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Re: I am requesting a guide.

Postby smudge » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:51 pm

False self=imagining eating
Awareness=full experience of eating
Is that what I'm noticing?
You tell me..Is the main character sharon real or a character in a compelling story? Just like Donald duck is a great character in a story but can't be found in reality.
Just like the thought of eating a sultana was quite different from the aural experience...same thing..LOOK so you know this from Direct experience (DE)
I think all the thoughts make me nervous, waiting to see if "I'm " right or not!
Really?? Can thoughts DO anything..LOOK, the story is it can, but can it really?\
If I take away the idea that I am my thoughts, there is nothing there
Firstly can "you" take away ideas, what does this even mean?? Look for what can have control over thoughts or anything come to that...or do thoughts just happen...AND, yes nothing there...except a massive space full of everything! Look and see.
I was a science teacher for 25 years
Great! This is completely logical, its believing fantasies to be real that isn't!
I am tense.I hold my breath.I think all the thoughts
So apply scientific looking here. Is this true in experience OR is tension just happening, is breath just happening, are thoughts just happening?

Do this to help see the place of thoughts: Write what you are experiencing right now using the words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now. Like this: I am lying in bed. I am hearing rain. I am typing these words. Do this for 10 minutes. Watch the body; what physical sensations are happening?
Then for the next 10 minutes write what you are experiencing without the words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening in the moment, using verbs: Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing rain. Again watch what is happening in the body. Now compare these two ways to label experience. What do you notice?

Go for it..take time to be thorough in your conclusions :-)
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Sharont6
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Re: I am requesting a guide.

Postby Sharont6 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:25 am

Is the main character sharon real or a character in a compelling story? .
I have often thought that I was a character in a story, even as a child. I even dream cartoons and comedy shows. There is no problem believing this.
Firstly can "you" take away ideas, what does this even mean?? Look for what can have control over thoughts or anything come to that....
The part about thoughts just happening is where I am stuck. Mine are so real and so intense. Can they be controlled? It appears as though I can for a short period of time. Like in meditating. The mind can be quieted for a short period of time. Who gets them to stop temporarily if it's not me? (I do understand it's not me. This is a question I need answered if indeed there is an answer.)
I do realize that the thoughts don't make me feel any particular way. It seems that they do but I think that is conditioning from family, etc.
Write what you are experiencing right now using the words I and me. .
I don't know if you really wanted to see it, but here it is. My observations are at the end of both sections.

"I am sitting in my recliner listening to my grandson clapping his hands. I don't know why. He just does. I am typing on the iPad and it is difficult. Laptops are easier. My grandson yells that he sees a spider in the bath room. Of course he does. I think one hides and just shows itself for him. My dog walked in front of me and my grandson claps some more. It makes me nervous and I'm about to ask him to stop. I do and he wants to know what I'm doing. "Homework." Well that sets off another set of questions.
I have bronchitis and there is extreme heaviness in the chest. I coughed so hard yesterday that I developed a hernia. That is uncomfortable but not painful. The acupuncturist thinks we can heal it without surgery. Boring, mundane but this is what is happening. I cough and sniffle. Thomas runs around the room but he is not clapping. Slight improvement.
I am tired. Not just physically, but mentally and emotionally. Just tired. I can see my body in the chair. Sometimes I wonder why I bother with it. It's tired, too. "
Then for the next 10 minutes write what you are experiencing without the words I and me. .
"Typing, breathing, noticing tv is on without sound
Breathing more, hearing Thomas's tv in another room
Deep breath, eyes closed, feeling tired
Pausing, waiting for the next thought to appear
Eyes close again, deep breathing, waiting
Wondering what the next thought will be,
Hearing the air conditioner
Thinking about calling the lawn service
Thinking there is always something to do
Noticing hands are feeling tired
Noticing tension in the neck
Feeling despondent, reading words that are being typed
Silly thought about nothing now, literally about the word nothing"

Observations:
Using I and me sounds better, some comfort in that, more familiar. The writing is more descriptive and flows better. Boring but easy to understand. I seemed to get off track some as the thoughts would ramble around in my head. I had to refocus several times. After a few minutes they took off on their own again.

Leaving off I and me was difficult at first but then it was easier. Just noticing, observing, no worries about if it was right or not. It just was. No judgements until the end. I labeled the last thought silly. Don't know why.
I didn't ramble as much and "I" wasn't as involved in the second part.

I am leaving for a day trip in the morning around 9:30 CST. I will be back later but with the time difference, I'm not sure if we will connect. I will reply to any comment when I return.
Thanks!

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smudge
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Re: I am requesting a guide.

Postby smudge » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:14 am

You are not being asked to believe anything. If you try and work this out intellectually you will fail. Only by actually looking will seeing happen. This isn't about thoughts stopping its seeing them for what they are. Thoughts. So simple.
If there is a 'Sharon' controlling thoughts then she should be able to be found just like foot or arm can be found. Look what is found other than thought?
Which of the 2 exercises you did was direct experience and which had a label, a thought of ownership added on?
Hope you enjoyed your day trip.


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"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Sharont6
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Re: I am requesting a guide.

Postby Sharont6 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:53 pm

I understand that the I and me help take ownership by labeling.
Just observing was more of a direct experience.
So question: Should I try to go through the day just observing and experiencing (as much as possible) at this point?
Or should just keep trying to find the I?


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