Guide available

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Canfora
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Guide available

Postby Canfora » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:18 am

Hi there, I'm Sandra and I'm available to guide.

This is what I ask from you:

Post once a day.
Be honest with yourself and with me.
Be open to lay aside everything you think you know and look to reality with fresh eyes.

This is your inquiry, all I do here is pointing to where you can look next.

If all this is OK with you and you also confirm that you read these pages:

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_FAQ.html

we can begin:

Talk a little about your journey so far and tell me how your expecting this to be.
How will it change you?
What will be different?

Sandra

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yasuaki
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Re: Guide available

Postby yasuaki » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:15 am

Hi Sandra,

many thanks for being available. I need someone to kick me through the gate as I've got a blind spot there and can't see any gate but feel there's something I've got to go through.
My journey is one of losing myself - born into communism and archaic polytheism (well-hidden and fearful), committed to and lost several religions (science, Christianity, programming, New Age), am married to a wonderful wife who went through the gateless gate some time ago, two kids (23 and 7) enlighten my not-so-young-anymore days and make me wonder what more I can provide to them than just being there and encourage them on their way to themselves. But with regard to myself I'm somehow stuck in a much-too-friendly mud, not much of an ego anymore (it's learned to behave), no me in sight but still some not-not-me in the background that tries to hold tight to the tiller and worries and makes me worry.
Always the fear: I'm of no use except making just enough money for my family to survive - which is not bad and not even boring, sometimes exhausting and sometimes really interesting, but this is nothing more than serving (whom?), being sometimes useful (to whom?), suffering a little (ah! ego) and killing time which doesn't exist but still runs away. Getting to the next level (the levelless level) is overdue, and has been for years. And pity I can't get there by myself - reading all the dialogues and McKennas and david carses gets me nowhere as I'm permanently cheating. (Who I?) I feel I'm unable to be honest with myself, because when I did I would have to take a knife and my life. As I write this I notice there's a lot of self-hatred left from my PTSD times, didn't even notice that this was there, but it doesn't hurt anymore.
That's why I need a real dialogue as I won't dare to cheat here (hopefully, you never know, looking at something I wrote a minute ago already looks like I cheated but that's because this minute changed something / everything).
Expectation: nothing I can't put in words anymore. All expectations so far have been nonsense, either beside the point or became transcended. But I need to finally pry my eyes open, somehow. No idea how.
No idea how this will change me. Me? My ego? My hide-and-seek non-not-me? My (who is me-my) ouside? But something needs to change, and any change will be to the better. As what's now there is a lie, maybe benign but painfully inconsistent and boring.
What will be different? No idea again. I went through some internal and external paradigm shifts in the past, and even though most of the world afterwards looked like before, everything was different. Not necessarily better, but one step further. Oh, that's it, my expectation: further!
Thanks for making yourself available to talk to confusionists like me and help them get further, wherever this will be.
Berthold

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Canfora
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Re: Guide available

Postby Canfora » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:22 pm

Hi Berthold and welcome to the LU forum. It's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you for your nice introduction.

I went to the Urban Dictionary to see what a confusionist is (English isn't my first language). Confusionist: a person who is always starting drama.

You can think that's a good label to define what you are but what happens if you look here and now, can you find this 'confusionist'? Or any other of the you's you mentioned in your post?

By look I mean exactly that, look to what's here-now. Where is this Berthold you talk about in your post?
Try to find this person that you think you are.
Can you point at it?
What makes this you real?

And if I say that this you never existed and doesn't exist, it's just an illusion, what is experienced?
What thoughts appear, what is felt?
Please describe.

Looking forward to read your answers!

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yasuaki
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Re: Guide available

Postby yasuaki » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:27 am

Hi Sandra,
here's my biomindmachine sitting in front of the laptop, just having lost a long (much too long) answer on which I typed for too long so I got logged out before I could send it. Good. The answer was important for me, not for you.
There is no I. The last thing I experienced before the answer got lost was that there was a desperately felt need to identify with something that was desperately fluttering around trying to hold on to ANYTHING out of reach of my look as where I look I clearly see that this is not I. Still this need dashes around and finds ever new things to hold on, and then I have to look to disidentify me. Tedious bit, hopefully I'll get out of this.
No label ever sticks to me, they all stick to my roles that biomind created to perform its daily life. Biomind living itself. Where is I? Still around, in form of the need, but even this is not I, it's part of biomind too. And so I have to go on and disidentify 'myself' with all these elements of 'myself' by identifying them as part of the biomind roles theater production ensemble. Tedious but unavoidable.
In my lost answer there were some observations on what happens when I consciously disidentify. Internal child longing for love and so on, finally identified as part of biomind. Now I'm just tired.
Need to stop here, too tired to go on, and maybe this answer will get lost again.
Thank you for giving me this chance to get into some clarity. Wherever this goes on.

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Canfora
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Re: Guide available

Postby Canfora » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:02 pm

Hi Berthold,
here's my biomindmachine sitting in front of the laptop, just having lost a long (much too long) answer on which I typed for too long so I got logged out before I could send it.
That sucks! It happens sometimes. I always copy the text before pressing Preview or Submit. That way if something happens I can do past and there is no need to write again. I learned that the hard way.

What I want to know is this:
what comes up when you think you don't exist and never existed?
What kind of thoughts, sensations, emotions appear?
Notice what is going on and just put it down in writing, please.


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yasuaki
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Re: Guide available

Postby yasuaki » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:45 am

Hi Sandra,
what comes up when you think you don't exist and never existed?
What kind of thoughts, sensations, emotions appear?
Like all things where mind has a share, the answer to this is complex. On the emotion layer, when I don't think about the question but let it simply hit me after removing all emotional shielding, it dips me into fear. It's somehow similar to the fear of the small boy who desperately wanted to be loved but could never quite make it, but it's more physical at the same time. Like fear of decomposing or fear of death. But that's only a moment. After this there is relief, not on a thought level but on an only slightly less basic emotional level: Oh good so I'm not responsible of this mess. And I can enjoy it as a guy who does not exist can not be held responsible for any wrongdoing, meaning there is no wrongdoing, nothing can be wrong at all, as nothing is. Everything is as it is, and this means it is not, it is just in my perception. Need to shift perception to get out of this illusion. Which is a familiar task. (my n-th profession besides physics and IT consulting is family constellation facilitating, some kind of psychotherapy if you don't happen to know it, where stepping through the veils of illusions and unacknowledged = unsolved bondings / entanglements is part of ordinary work)
BUT (mind?) if non-existence is stated so clearly it causes this something in the background of personality (dream character, well-developed if not overweight) to start desperately fluttering around and looking for something to hold on: in a small voice it permanently screams 'no this can't be I can't be nonexisting I'll die if I don't exist and what about all these precious emotions and bondings I'll lose them all no I must find somethinh to hold on I must keep to exist' and so on - forgetting/ignoring that this is completely beside the point. Nothing of the dream character get's lost if it finally admits that there is noone to wear it, even though there's enough clutter among its requisites that most of it is definitely obsolete. - Yesterday this fluttering desperate little thing that wants to be me - but is definitely not however is well connected to my emotions - caused me a landslide of emotions of all kinds, old stuff coming up that I though long forgotten, but today it was not so bad anymore, just while driving a short flood of tears welled up and out when I thought of some childhood memories the irreproducibility of which made me melt in self-pity. But it went away, and the tears took away some of the flu that just now keeps me thinking about dreamed-up viruses in sick dream characters which looks like complete crap if you really look. It just doesn't go away. And I don't want it go away. If I have to go through a flu or cancer or raving madness from time to time (no experience with the last two but you never know what Maya comes up with next) in order to keep being able to love my little son, my great daughter and my wonderful wife (grammer implies 'my's here which make no sense at all) I'll bear it and be proud of it - which is what my dream character is proud of just now. How noble! - Looking at this from without the dream character (which is not entirely possible but at least imaginably imaginable) makes me smile - all so human and pathetic and ridiculous and lovely and irrelevant at the same time. I should try to do a system constellation for myself, and I will. This is something where I can't cheat. This is deathly serious, and mind's lustful reasoning and irrationalizing has no part in it. Constellation lets me see my system with as much clarity as there is feasible for my actual limit of consciousness, undiminished by mind. And still it's part of dream, but a rather lucid part of it.
So why am I still not through the gate, why is the gate still there?
I have no idea.
Something so deep in my (dream, but still the only one) personality is still untouched and holds on to being 'me', or at least to the rock-solid idea that there must be something that is 'me' if it is not 'me' itself.
Need to get rid of this.
Maybe it wants to be appreciated first. Maybe it had some important part of my getting to this point. Maybe it can release then.
I'm looking.
Strange enough, there is no contradiction between the fact that I never existed (that I can easily acknowledge on a mind level) and the need to acknowledge parts of my (dream) history from time to time e.g. in a constellation because unacknowledged parts of (even dreamed) personal history are like rubber bands that hold me back. Bu this is true for the dream character, and all the stuff that I learned in so many family and system constellations still does not become inappropriate and useless - perceived on the level of my dream character. There is simply another level, the non-dream level (don't dare to call it truth as I'm still not there) that starts from another paradigm. A more logical one. And as it's not yet truth it's still got a paradigm and a conscious effort to adopt its position in order to look from there. Meaning it's just another attempt of more lucid dreaming. The final thing, the real thing will be clean of all this. Reasons my dream mind.
Let's go on and rid of this.
Need clarity.
Thanks a lot for your next question.

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Canfora
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Re: Guide available

Postby Canfora » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:53 pm

Hi Berthold,

Wow, there are so many thoughts, sensations and emotions described in your post! Thank you for sharing them.
Let's start untangling things one by one.
Need clarity.
Can you please look around and describe what's there surrounding you?

After doing that, would you agree with me if I say that:

- what is surrounding you can be seen/experienced with absolute clarity;

- at this moment, when you look, there is nothing more than this, what is here, now.

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yasuaki
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Re: Guide available

Postby yasuaki » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:25 am

Dear Sandra,

the WOW effect is a distracting one, you see my mind is trained in producing floods of obstacles when it comes to the clarity needed here. Still, in its weird and selfish way, it serves me, and without it there would be no language to use for getting into clarity. Maybe there would be another language if this dominantly distractling pitterpatter was not there, a language that may be more focused on pointing to what is in the present moment. I don't know. But I am grateful for everything, including the obstacles.
Can you please look around and describe what's there surrounding you?
So what's the me that can be surrounded? - I notice I am still identified with something but I can't identify it. Still not free to distinguish. But I'll go with my feeling. My body is there to surround me. It's not me, at least I don't feel it to be me, entirely. Brain and heart (especially heart) are very near to being me but this is just a concept not a perception. Perception is that I am surrounded by a body that is somehow connected to me so e.g. the hands type this. Then the IT clutter that provides internet access. The chair on which I sit, the cluttererd desk where the IT stuff sits on. The room, door open in order to listen to my son who's got a cold but finally stopped coughing when he fell asleep a few minutes ago. Seems important to be able to hear it when he may start again so i can go in and give him a glass of water. Even these thoughts surround me, they are not me. Mind produces them, and if I look a little deeper, mind is something that is part of the surroundings too, and it does not even surround me like the air but sits there in full view, not being me but being part of my biomindmachine. The apartment is more surrounding, and the weather, and Canada, and the universe. But these are just concepts again, as there may be no weather, at least I can't see any (it's dark outside), and Canada is just a definition, and universe is a man-made theory. My wife and daughter (the latter on a visit from Germany) sit in the living room, I can't see them but hear their tiny movements and breathing, but is this a proof that they are there? They will be, most probably, if I get up and look, but not necessarily. There may be a tape machine playing their sounds. I never know. And I don't know what's under the keyboard. When I lift it there's a part of the desk, but maybe only then. Surrounding is not even the direct result of perception, it is the result of interpretation of perception. And if the perceived stuff has got anything to do with any kind of reality depends on too many subjective factors to support the existence of any stable reality. But my interpretation mostly gives me something that is useful to do the tiny next steps in life, so I accept it and am grateful. Might be tougher if I didn't perceive most of it e.g. if blinded. So I look at what there seems to be, let it be the what there IS for now (purely pragmatical), and say Thank you for being there. And thank you for most probably showing up again when I wake up tomorrow.
- what is surrounding you can be seen/experienced with absolute clarity;
- at this moment, when you look, there is nothing more than this, what is here, now.
There is no absolute clarity. All what I perceive is an interpretation, except the fact that I am perceiving. And even this is not clear: when I say 'I am perceiving', the I is not definable. Only perception is clear. It is there, obviously. All other, including I, is not obvious but constructions to enable mind to deal with it, as thoughts, and body to deal with it, surviving. And mind and body are constructions themselves, self-definers that keep reinforcing their own existence by the need to permanently define themselves, a task named survival. - I can see my surrounding, I can feel it, I can stub my toe on it and feel pain, but all this is no proof. The desk seems solid but looking with a microscope reveals levels of structure that consist of more and more nothing the deeper you look. The love I feel for the other persons in this apartment has a nearly non-perceivable component, love manifesting itself in beings that express it e.g. in loving each other, and an inflated mess of cultural and individual experiences defined as concrete love consisting of emotions and doings through which it is supposed, convenient and accepted to be expressed. I love the non-perceivable part of it, and am grateful for all the learned clutter that helps to express and feel it. But where is me in this, where is clarity? In perceiving. Perception only. Everything else is synthesized in order to make it accessible to body, mind, emotions and whatever parts of the bodymindmachine need to deal with it. Need? This need is just the expression of the deep fear of no-need, no-life, no-love, no-me - clarity would be to be fully aware if live living itself and of nothing else. Need discarded, irreality discarded, perception unhampered by the fearful need to interprete. (Of course, bodymind needs to live on, on its own level. And needs to express its life and love in the frame and language of its paradigm. And I wouldn't miss it as I don't want to miss the gratitude flowing through me (emotions) for being able to perceive life and love.)

Yes there is nothing more than this what is here, now. Not only that, there is less. What is here now is mostly interpretation of perception. The keyboard is a concept, working well in the framework of the paradigm within which it was created. Looking deeper, it is vacuum with a few particles in it, all of these (vacuum and particles, 'in', 'it') are concepts again. Looking deeper, it is coiled and twisted spacetime which is a concept again. On none of the levels there is proof of existence. But the keyboard serves me for writing an answer to you. The looking deeper causes me some emotional pain, some sadness, maybe because I deconstruct the world in which I (the mesocosmically interpreted result of perception) like to live and love, and I don't want to lose this. fear of not-being. But I (mind) convince myself (emotions) that there is love and will always be on every level of perception-interpretation, and that my beloved co-humans will stay to be beloved co-humans even if I unmask my interpretations as interpretations, and my I as not existing. - A tear wells up. But I feel relieved. Just now I notice the thought that maybe I am not really wanting clarity, but all I can want is getting to the next level of (imagined) understanding of my being there, and of course wanting is at the same time trying to overcome fear, the fear that in slaying the demons of too much understanding about the non-existence of me, I may slay me on the way. Not just me, which is doomed to be deconstructed as it only exists in my interpretations (and it is still there so I must go further), but the deeper me that is not me but the perceiver. No way just now that there is no perceiver, just perception perceiving itself. There still wants to be a perceiver. Makes me sad. Task not fulfilled. Need to give me another day and your help.

Thank you for enduring this sermon, I need it to non-cheatingly talk to myself in order to get anywhere at all. Hope it gets me somewhere, finally. - Whom?

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Canfora
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Re: Guide available

Postby Canfora » Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:25 pm

Dear Berthold,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I hope your son feels better from the cold.

Whom is a good question but it implies a who. Asking 'what' can be more useful in this context.

You talk about the bodymindmachine and what I see in your posts is a thinkingmachine :)

Where are all those thoughts coming from? If you look to their origin can you see a Whom there, doing the thinking?

A thinker?

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yasuaki
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Re: Guide available

Postby yasuaki » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:44 am

The thinkingmachine is a well-trained thing. Sometimes this may be useful, but most of the (not working-hour) time it's a pest. - When meditating I found it helpful to use a formula to detach from its permanent blabbing: MIND, GO TO PLAYGROUND, TAKE EGO AND EMOTIONS WITH YOU. Mostly this worked well, and I (who? what? the remaining part of the same, of course, thinkingmachine again but toned down) was able to get into relaxing. In our dialogue here this thinkingmachine revves up and up as it reacts to questions. But I see that this is beside the point. Of course there is no thinker, the thinkingmachine is a perpetuum mobile. It works well with ego to reinforce each other, creating the illusion of a thinker, but this is easily unmasked. The machine snatches every opportunity where there is a need of thinking (e.g. in order to answer a question or in simply using language) for dragging the focus of perception to its outcome. That's why I liked meditating for a while - no need to use language, made it much easier to ignore the flood of thoughts. Steven Sadleir said 'There's no point in trying to silence your mind, it simply won't stop. Just ignore its output, like of a TV next room.' That's very helpful when meditating, but not when writing a post. Meaning I need to become more laconic, in the hope of being able to focus.
Discarding any doer or thinker as unfounded hypotheses, when 'I' look there still remains some entity that names itself 'I' and believes it needs a doer for it to do stuff, and a thinker to express stuff. So doer and thinker are not really discarded but redefined as tools of someone who / something that uses them. Let's name this guy the wannabe in the background.
This wannabe does not like to be seen. It's happy about the fact that mostly the perceived surfaces of 'I' are the doer and the thinker, or just their output. - When trying to look I can't produce a clear picture of this wannabe. When focusing it resembles an unknown man standing ankle-deep in a river with a fishing rod, backside to me, shooting me a short angry sidewise glance when I get too close. Don't disturb me, his look seems to say. Deal with doer and thinker and leave me alone. - I have no idea what this guy's role is. The more I look, the less he means to me. So I leave him alone.
But it disturbs me that he is there. Looks like I stumbled into a kind of hidden identification layer where I hoped to come out of previous doer or thinker identification unidentified.
So I feel suddenly burdened. All this identification with doer and thinker and now this wannabe angler is in full sight now, incomprehensible and obviously not easy to get rid of. Dealing with them looks like an unwanted task that I have to do in order to get rid of myself. Seems like a mountain of work, especially as the tools needed to deal with it are part of it.
This does not feel good.
While my little son gets better I seem to get into a depression. Haven't had one in years. Welcome back, so to say. Never know what it's good for, but I'll see when going on. Only just now I seem paralyzed, confusion reigning.
Hope you shoot me a question that makes me break the spell.
Thank you!

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Canfora
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Re: Guide available

Postby Canfora » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:38 am

What I've been trying to do is to know you a little better and to find a way to, as you say, help you start to 'break the spell'.

Did you read this article about direct experience: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html ?

The article says that, for the purposes of investigation, experience can be divided in 3 main aspects: thought, sensations and an unmistakable sense of Aliveness. The 3 together are what we call in LU Direct Experience, or DE.

And that is all that can be experienced at this moment or at any moment, a thought, a sensation and the sense of being alive.

If you look to your experience right now can you see anything being experienced that isn't a thought, a sensation or aliveness? Do it, please and see if this is true for you.

The focus of this inquiry is to look to DE and see if a separate I can be found in experience. It's not about thinking this over. Looking to DE can be a very effective way to break the spell of the mind.

Let's look to the depression you mention at the end of your post (I'm happy to know that your son it's getting better. My daughter is also coughing.).

Be open to your experience at this moment, welcome it if you can, look at it like if you never seen it before.

Try to find 'depression' the same way you would do if I asked you to find a pen. Can you do it?
Is 'depression' here, now?

If you look to your experience how would you describe 'depression' ?

I'm not asking you to share your thoughts about what 'depression' is, how it was for you in the past or how it can be for you in the future...

I want to know what you see happening now, not the story the mind is telling.

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yasuaki
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Re: Guide available

Postby yasuaki » Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:23 am

If you look to your experience right now can you see anything being experienced that isn't a thought, a sensation or aliveness? Do it, please and see if this is true for you.
True. And of the three, I trust only aliveness, the others may exist on their own right or just be imagined, I'm never sure.
The focus of this inquiry is to look to DE and see if a separate I can be found in experience.
Definitely no I.
Try to find 'depression' the same way you would do if I asked you to find a pen. Can you do it?
Is 'depression' here, now?
Well I can find 'depression' as a concept in the dusty shelves of my mind, but not anywhere near what I mostly call 'reality'. It's all thought, and a sensation of headache and despair.
If you look to your experience how would you describe 'depression' ?
It's a special flavour of fear, with an undertone of headache and despair. It's a state of felt disconnectedness but I could not define to what. Can't well define it but I know from (quite a while ago, except since yesterday) the sensations connected to this state into which shelf I can put it. All this is just in my head, far from reality except the sensations described.
I want to know what you see happening now, not the story the mind is telling.
NOW my head spins. Some aspect of me constantly tries to look at me/myself/I like bending the light for catching a look at myself without using a mirror. This is stress and my blood pressure rises when looking too hard, experienced as pounding in my ears and temples and a throbbing in my head. Think I'm creating drama again. What's the use of drama? Delivering a reason why everything is so painful and justifying my slow pace ahead and fear of change. And so I'm in mind's story again.

Need to close for now, my little sone is getting better and has got an insatiable thirst for listening to us reading to him. As many versions of 'reality' as possible, sharpening his personality for future fights - with himself, in the end.

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Canfora
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Re: Guide available

Postby Canfora » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:18 pm

If you look to your experience right now can you see anything being experienced that isn't a thought, a sensation or aliveness? Do it, please and see if this is true for you.

True. And of the three, I trust only aliveness, the others may exist on their own right or just be imagined, I'm never sure.
I completely understand what you're saying - if I think about this I agree with you.
But what we're doing here has nothing to do with thought content, with what we think about reality - we are looking to what is being experienced in reality, regardless of thoughts about it.

Are you 100% sure that the experience of this moment is made only of thought, sensation and aliveness? Don't trust what I say and confirm how it is for you. If you keep looking, can you find other kind of experience?
Try to find 'depression' the same way you would do if I asked you to find a pen. Can you do it?
Is 'depression' here, now?


Well I can find 'depression' as a concept in the dusty shelves of my mind, but not anywhere near what I mostly call 'reality'. It's all thought, and a sensation of headache and despair.

If you look to the sensations that appear without trying to avoid them, with curiosity, do they have a label attached?
Could this 'despair' be a mix of a sensation/thought that has nothing to do with what you think 'despair' is?

If you look to your experience without believing what thoughts say about what you are feeling - with fresh eyes and a willingness to see what's realy there, what do you find? Is it really 'despair' or it's an energy, a sensation?

What happens if you stay open to it, if you don't try to avoid this energy? Does the experience change? How?
If you look to your experience how would you describe 'depression' ?

It's a special flavour of fear, with an undertone of headache and despair. It's a state of felt disconnectedness but I could not define to what. Can't well define it but I know from (quite a while ago, except since yesterday) the sensations connected to this state into which shelf I can put it. All this is just in my head, far from reality except the sensations described.
Try doing with the fear what I suggest above, please.
And when you're looking to what is really there - to what is really happening in reality - look also to what's behind it, to the origin of what's happening.

What is behind the despair?
What is behind the fear?
What is behind the sensations, the energy, the thoughts?
Is it a you?
I want to know what you see happening now, not the story the mind is telling.

NOW my head spins. Some aspect of me constantly tries to look at me/myself/I like bending the light for catching a look at myself without using a mirror. This is stress and my blood pressure rises when looking too hard, experienced as pounding in my ears and temples and a throbbing in my head. Think I'm creating drama again. What's the use of drama? Delivering a reason why everything is so painful and justifying my slow pace ahead and fear of change. And so I'm in mind's story again.

Need to close for now, my little sone is getting better and has got an insatiable thirst for listening to us reading to him. As many versions of 'reality' as possible, sharpening his personality for future fights - with himself, in the end.
You lost focus here but with the knowing that you were doing it. Well done.
When I ask you to look there is no need for 'looking too hard'.
Looking is just looking to what is here in experience, using the senses.
It's like looking to the computer screen. No more than that :)
You know the computer is real because you can see it, touch it, hear it,...
If a separate self exists, it's reality must be easy to prove, like the reality of the existance of a computer, hands, keybord, the sound of voices.
The focus of this inquiry is to look to DE and see if a separate I can be found in experience.

Definitely no I.
Then what are you? Please describe. What makes you think you are you? Look for the answer in experience - not in thinking!

Glad to know your son is feeling better. And thank you for answering my questions.

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yasuaki
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Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Guide available

Postby yasuaki » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:38 am

Are you 100% sure that the experience of this moment is made only of thought, sensation and aliveness?
Not sure on the mind level, mind is first to chime in, it wriggles and doesn't want to confirm.
Hard task to get mind to shut up and listen to the tiny voice of immediate experiencing. Even here I can't confirm as for immediate experiencing (which seems to be a me-flavoured DE) all three concepts - thought, sensation and aliveness - make no sense. Experiencing doesn't know these words, it knows nothing, it's just alive. So, after interpreting what it tells me, it is aliveness, even though experiencing would not label it at all. And it sounds logical that all the other stuff is either thought or sensation, but there's mind in this statement again, and I can only give up here. Without mind the question has no meaning, with mind every answer is cheating. - Blood pressure rising again, it's like trying to pull myself out of a swamp using my own hair. Especially when completely bald. Joke aside, this attempt of non-thinking expression hurts, and the only thing I can to get through is to surrender to the pain and hope it'll burn away the thought crap. Still not there.
If you keep looking, can you find other kind of experience?
Can't really keep looking as it makes me sad (label -> one step back: feeling helpless and robbed of mind tools, fear of losing myself as my main tool is thought). Experience is just to be alive, life living and thus producing all kinds of ripples, nothing else. Thoughts (however defined) may emerge but not really alive, same with sensations. Experience doesn't care about what else there could turn up on this parasitic level where thoughts and sensations suck off life. Silenceing my mind, I can't find anything, but that means nothing.

Feeling I could start writhing and gnashing teeth here and beat my own head. Answering questions is a mind task. Writing a post is a mind task. Overcome mind in this task is something mind-twisting. Feeling of helplessness comes up but determination as well. This nonsense situation confirms that there's something very basic wrong with me, so it's time to get rid of the misleading concepts, me and all. - And again mind dwells in excreting language. Argh.
If you look to the sensations that appear without trying to avoid them, with curiosity, do they have a label attached?
No. It's just my framework of interpreting them that makes my head spin and hurt. Time to get rid of the framework.
Could this 'despair' be a mix of a sensation/thought that has nothing to do with what you think 'despair' is?
Of course. Especially as English is not my first language, I'm mostly aware of this dilemma: using words is no secure means of communication, everything can signify something else, and I'm often misguided by my mind. Need to relabel stuff all the time. Even worse in German as there it feels much harder to adapt. German feels like a programming language to me when it comes to subtle meanings and use. The language in which I was once programmed. Need to get rid of these old programmings. 'Despair' denotes something to me that I can't communicate well, so it's done a bad job. If wanting to comunicate at all I need to try again and again. But it's just labels on sensation-loaded thoughts that are behind all these words. Feeling stuck. All this dialoge (mostly with myself whoever this is) makes me feel uneasy, sick, fed up with these concepts. Need to shake myself and get out of this state of mind. Mind!
If you look to your experience without believing what thoughts say about what you are feeling - with fresh eyes and a willingness to see what's realy there, what do you find? Is it really 'despair' or it's an energy, a sensation?
No fresh eyes here. Also the willingness looks more like despair (sic!) to get out of some kind of entanglement where every movement makes the tangles constrict more. Caught in my (concept of) internal child that's got an impossible task and worries how to ever get it done. Alive, sensations, thoughts. Step out of this to watch. Nothing but aliveness, sensations, thoughts. Could step back into the role, but why. Was hard enough to get out. The watcher is just watching happening. There is no watcher behind the watching. And there's this sensation/thought pattern named 'internal child', kept up by referring to it, keeping up some old identification. Can be discarded, it's not me. There is no me.

Don't know why suddenly I got out of this pattern of suffering. Not reliable anyway, sensations come and go, states of mind come and go (just thoughts).
What happens if you stay open to it, if you don't try to avoid this energy? Does the experience change? How?
As long as no sensation or thought washes me away into a 'state' I stay with the watching. Meaning there is something like a focus on watching but still no watcher. And the experience just changed, from being identified with some feelings (labeled sensations) to watching. Avoiding labels, the watching just shows that everything is.
What is behind the despair?
What is behind the fear?
What is behind the sensations, the energy, the thoughts?
Is it a you?
Definitely no you or me or I. There is nothing behind despair, fear, sensations, energy, thoughts. Just nothing. They appear, and their labels pop up in mind if mind is active. If mind is dormant they appear without lables, all the same in essence (nothing), all just fluctuations. Watching them.
Then what are you? Please describe. What makes you think you are you? Look for the answer in experience - not in thinking!
Good question. Just now I'm a smile. With a headache. Both are sensations with labels on. And I'm the hearing of noise in the kitchen which makes my mind think this and that (e.g. I should wash dishes earlier next time so noone else needs to do it but I had too much other stuff to do today and so on and so on and so on, mind be quiet now) and the internal sensation of gratitude (label) and the sensation of a slight ache in my left foot. - All this is easily peeled away from the 'I' (stuck to it by habit) and then no I is left. Just this multitude of roles going on to incorporate some aspects of life.

Feels lighter now. No I, period.
Only some little devil in my mind grins 'You are not there and you will never get there, you are still you, fat chance to get rid of this, haha!'
Thanks mind. Essential contribution, as always.
But mind is right: still not there.

Tomorrow I need to travel the whole day. Let's see if I can enable my bodymindmachine to do this on its own. I (non-existing) may fly along outside the crammed airplane. Where will I be tomorrow evening? - Irrelevant question. There is no I, and here and now there is neither a where nor a tomorrow.
Lol!
Thank you, Sandra. There seems to be hope, despite my 'states of mind'.

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Canfora
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Re: Guide available

Postby Canfora » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:09 pm

You can do this Berthold. There is no motive to rush and there is no motive to be harsh on yourself. Try to relax and try to trust this process. The only thing you have to do is look to reality, that's all. And you've been looking to reality all your life, we are only seeing if thoughts and reality match :)

If you don't exist, how will you make your non existent you change?
If you look to your last post what will you see? I see lots of thinking and lots of resistance to this moment. Am I right?
If I ask you if you're doing the thinking and resisting on purpose what would you say?
Is a you doing any of this or is it happening in automatic? Like what you said about language, that language is programmed?

Do you believe everything you think, Berthold?
If you look what is 'mind'? Can you find it?
Where are thoughts coming from?
Are thoughts thinking thoughts?
Can you see a thinker if you look to reality?


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