Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Carlyn
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:32 am

Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

Postby Carlyn » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:03 pm

I've lurked here long enough...now ready to ask for a guide please.

I have been registered on Liberation Unleashed since 8/7/12. Since then I have browsed, watched the youtube videos, gone over the enlightenment quotes at least twice, read the Gateless Gate ebook. I have been a long term seeker, meditator and spiritual addict for over 30 years. I keep putting this off because I feel I’m not ready yet...I need to read another book or get more knowledge which I realize can be never ending. Even though I was exposed to the term and followers of nonduality only about 3 years ago, I now realize that other paths have pointed there all along. To give you an idea of my understanding, those who inspire me are Rupert Spira, Robert Wolfe, Adyashanti, Francis Lucille, Krishnamurti, to name few.
​​
I don’t even remember how I came upon the LU site but I do remember that is when the realization of the personal “I” being non-existent finally became clear (at least intellectually). I had considered myself the witness/observer for many years and felt that this was my higher self and that “I” was constantly trying ways to reunite with that part of myself.

I feel the separate self is dissolving but for the most part I feel I am an inside observer looking out at an outside observed world. So I am finally here…..

User avatar
aubergine99
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

Postby aubergine99 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:20 pm

Hello Carlyn,

Glad you feel ready to take the plunge and enter this enquiry. My name is Brigitte and I am happy to be your guide if you'll have me. I too have been influenced by Francis Lucille and Rupert Spira.

The enquiry, which you are probably familiar with, involves me posing you questions and you answering to the best of your ability. I will not be putting forward any new beliefs. This is an enquiry so everything will be questioned. The emphasis is on guiding rather than teaching.

There is a short video and disclaimer on front page of LU. Please confirm you agree to the disclaimer.

I look forward to working with you.

Brigitte

User avatar
Carlyn
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:32 am

Re: Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

Postby Carlyn » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:40 pm

Hi Brigitte,

Good to meet you and thank you so much for agreeing to be my guide. I have read and agree with the disclaimer and have watched the video on the home page.

Ready to begin..
Carlyn

User avatar
aubergine99
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

Postby aubergine99 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:32 pm

Hi Carlyn,

Thanks for your reply.

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. It's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.

Please agree to post at least once a day.

When posting, please familiarise yourself with the quote function as shown in Announcements section at the top of the Guiding Area.

Here's a couple of helpful points:

1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

So, let's start.

What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no 'you' in any way, shape or form, there never has been nor will there ever be?

I look forward to your reply.

Best wishes
Brigitte

User avatar
Carlyn
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:32 am

Re: Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

Postby Carlyn » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:58 am

Hi Brigitte,

Thanks for the tips.
What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no 'you' in any way, shape or form, there never has been nor will there ever be?
Initially, there was fear. If there is no "me"....who is in control and running the show? Fear of loosing my mind and not being able to function, being disconnected, not being able to control my own destiny. Now those initial fears have dissolved somewhat. Intellectually, I have an understanding there is no me but my experience is that I am inside calling the shots.

Best to you,
Carlyn

User avatar
aubergine99
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

Postby aubergine99 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:04 pm

Hi Carlyn,

I understand your fears and we will go gently with this enquiry. If there is any confusion arising, don’t hesitate to ask for clarification. There is nothing complex at all in this but if one approach doesn’t work, there is always another to try.

Let’s first take a look at control. Are you in control in your daily activities?

Try this exercise:

Notice when you make a cup of tea, prepare a meal or during any activity, whether you are in control of each single action or does it happen automatically? Are you in control of making your legs and hands move? If so, how do you do this? Look closely in the moment movement happens and describe your findings.

Best wishes
Brigitte

User avatar
Carlyn
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:32 am

Re: Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

Postby Carlyn » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:05 am

Hi Brigitte,
Notice when you make a cup of tea, prepare a meal or during any activity, whether you are in control of each single action or does it happen automatically? Are you in control of making your legs and hands move? If so, how do you do this? Look closely in the moment movement happens and describe your findings.
I have been looking into this today. Actions and movement seem automatic but I am aware that a thought usually precedes most actions. Actually getting up and making a cup of tea is automatic but I had the thought that I wanted a cup of tea first. This is where the "I" thought comes in for me when I wonder who is initiating the thought that begins an action. My body (internally and breathing, etc ) operates on its own, not dependent on my control.

Thanks for your help.
Namaste,
Carlyn

User avatar
aubergine99
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

Postby aubergine99 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:23 pm

Hello again Carlyn,
Actions and movement seem automatic but I am aware that a thought usually precedes most actions. Actually getting up and making a cup of tea is automatic but I had the thought that I wanted a cup of tea first. This is where the "I" thought comes in for me when I wonder who is initiating the thought that begins an action. My body (internally and breathing, etc ) operates on its own, not dependent on my control.
Good! Exactly. Thoughts arise and actions follow or not.

It’s not necessary to investigate the origin of thoughts for this enquiry. That would only be a story about thoughts. We really need to focus on direct experience to see the reality of life and not just thoughts about it.

Are you the thinker of thoughts or do they just appear?

Can you control them?

Can you only choose to think happy thoughts?

Can you stop thinking for 15 minutes?

Is "I" a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Warm wishes
Brigitte

User avatar
Carlyn
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:32 am

Re: Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

Postby Carlyn » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:55 pm

Hi Brigitte,

Good to hear from you....
Are you the thinker of thoughts or do they just appear?
Thoughts just randomly appear for the most part. When my attention is focused either by someone or an object, thoughts appear based on my object of attention.
Can you control them?
Can't control the initial thought, they are random. When I am aware of a thought that may not be pleasant, I try to redirect thinking in order to ignore the unpleasant thought which leads me to think I am controlling it.
Can you only choose to think happy thoughts?
I do think I can choose to think happy thoughts. However, I have no control of having unhappy or worrisome thoughts but can dismiss them and switch to something more pleasant. Most often the worrisome thoughts return and sometimes linger even tho I am trying to replace them with pleasant thoughts. Seems as tho there is a Director of Thoughts...giving a yea or nay.
Can you stop thinking for 15 minutes?
No..not during wakefulness. Even during meditation streams of thoughts appear but more in the background and easier to ignore.

Is "I" a different thought from the thought of say, a table?
Yes, I have to say that at this time for me the "I" thought does seem different than thoughts of objects. Intellectually I understand but my direct experience still feels that the "I" thought is the someone/witness/soul/divine presence running things.

Looking forward to your response...
Namaste,
Carlyn

User avatar
aubergine99
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

Postby aubergine99 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:20 pm

Good to hear from you, Carlyn
Can't control the initial thought, they are random.
Good! What about subsequent thoughts?
When I am aware of a thought that may not be pleasant, I try to redirect thinking in order to ignore the unpleasant thought which leads me to think I am controlling it.
Do you try to redirect thinking or is that a subsequent thought that appears and is noticed? Is there a ‘you’ involved in this in any way? Look closely at this.
Can you only choose to think happy thoughts?
I do think I can choose to think happy thoughts. However, I have no control of having unhappy or worrisome thoughts but can dismiss them and switch to something more pleasant. Most often the worrisome thoughts return and sometimes linger even tho I am trying to replace them with pleasant thoughts. Seems as tho there is a Director of Thoughts...giving a yea or nay.
Can you really dismiss them and switch to something more pleasant? Really LOOK! Is there a ‘you’ or is it a thought? Where was that thought of dismissing thoughts before the worrisome thought appeared? See how thoughts come and go like clouds in the sky, one follows another and then another. Just notice them during the day. When you focus on clouds, you will see clouds but behind them is only sky.
Is "I" a different thought from the thought of say, a table?
Yes, I have to say that at this time for me the "I" thought does seem different than thoughts of objects. Intellectually I understand but my direct experience still feels that the "I" thought is the someone/witness/soul/divine presence running things.
Look again, Carlyn. You say there is a difference. Thoughts are directly experienced but what about their contents? Do you experience a difference or is that a thought only? Are the contents of thoughts ever real? Is the thought of a ripe juicy peach the same as an actual ripe juicy peach? Consider the validity then of thoughts in general.

Is there an 'I' witness? Look at the show and look for this 'I', can you find it? Clearly, there is witnessing and knowing of this sentence but is there a witness?

Brigitte

User avatar
Carlyn
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:32 am

Re: Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

Postby Carlyn » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:56 pm

Hi Brigitte,

I didn't get an email this time indicating you had responded so I just now found it. I would like to sit with these questions and respond tomorrow. These questions deserve some heavy looking for me because the recognition of the I thought has been one of my stumbling blocks. That the "I" thought is just another thought is starting to make sense however slightly.

I don't know what our time span is between responses. I'm in Eastern standard time in the US.

Take care,
Carlyn

User avatar
aubergine99
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

Postby aubergine99 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:12 pm

Hi Carlyn,

Take the time you need to respond. Just as long as I know what's happening, I don't mind if you miss the odd day. I'm in UK.

Brigitte x

User avatar
Carlyn
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:32 am

Re: Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

Postby Carlyn » Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:59 am

Hi Brigitte,
Good! What about subsequent thoughts?
Subsequent thoughts seem to arise in strings each springing from the previous thought before changing content randomly.
Do you try to redirect thinking or is that a subsequent thought that appears and is noticed? Is there a ‘you’ involved in this in any way? Look closely at this
Now this question caused me to think of this differently....redirecting a negative thought is also a thought rather than coming from someone who is a thought monitor. I notice that redirecting is a thought now.
Can you really dismiss them and switch to something more pleasant? Really LOOK! Is there a ‘you’ or is it a thought? Where was that thought of dismissing thoughts before the worrisome thought appeared?
This seems similar to the last question in that I see that switching to a more pleasant thought is also a thought. I don't know where the thought of dismissing thoughts was before the worrisome thought appeared. It must not have existed prior to the worrisome thought. This is where I start to go in circles because it seems that I have a choice of what thoughts occupy the mind...but yet I see that they appear randomly most of the time.
Thoughts are directly experienced but what about their contents? Do you experience a difference or is that a thought only? Are the contents of thoughts ever real? Is the thought of a ripe juicy peach the same as an actual ripe juicy peach? Consider the validity then of thoughts in general.
("Thoughts are directly experienced but what about their contents"). This took some looking for me. Thoughts and their contents seem merged to me...never thought of them as separate. Is it possible to experience a thought without its contents? I'm looking at this but it's not clear for me. Are you saying that the thought process is what we're experiencing rather than the contents? Even with these questions that arise I do see that there is not much validity to thoughts in general.
Is there an 'I' witness? Look at the show and look for this 'I', can you find it? Clearly, there is witnessing and knowing of this sentence but is there a witness?
There is witnessing and knowing. When I look I don't find the "I" witness. It just seems that there must be more and I have this strong sense of being (many words for that). I guess I want to label that sense of being that is always there now and give it a role.

I know I'm going in circles here but this is where I get stuck and I thank you for your patience.

Warm regards,
Carlyn

User avatar
aubergine99
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

Postby aubergine99 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:28 pm

Hello Carlyn,

Great work! I see some good progress.
Redirecting a negative thought is also a thought rather than coming from someone who is a thought monitor. I notice that redirecting is a thought now.
Good to notice this.
Can you really dismiss them and switch to something more pleasant? Really LOOK! Is there a ‘you’ or is it a thought? Where was that thought of dismissing thoughts before the worrisome thought appeared?
This seems similar to the last question in that I see that switching to a more pleasant thought is also a thought. I don't know where the thought of dismissing thoughts was before the worrisome thought appeared. It must not have existed prior to the worrisome thought. This is where I start to go in circles because it seems that I have a choice of what thoughts occupy the mind...but yet I see that they appear randomly most of the time.
Yes, but it is only an idea of choice. That is part of the illusion of control.
("Thoughts are directly experienced but what about their contents"). This took some looking for me. Thoughts and their contents seem merged to me...never thought of them as separate. Is it possible to experience a thought without its contents? I'm looking at this but it's not clear for me. Are you saying that the thought process is what we're experiencing rather than the contents? Even with these questions that arise I do see that there is not much validity to thoughts in general.
Yes, you experience a thought. Clearly you know when thinking is going on. The content is noted but is not experienced. That is the difference. It’s impossible to experience the ripe juicy peach of your thoughts – as it exists only in your imagination. This is the same for all thought content. It may point to the real but is never actually real itself. Can you see that?

With close looking, it becomes easier to see the difference between experience and thought story. Look into nature and look at all life-ing. Watch how thoughts arise, how they label and comment on what is seen. So thoughts say ‘this’ or ‘that’, so what? In the absence of thinking, does life stop? What is real?
There is witnessing and knowing. When I look I don't find the "I" witness. It just seems that there must be more and I have this strong sense of being (many words for that). I guess I want to label that sense of being that is always there now and give it a role.
So a thought comes up that wants to label that sense of being. Just notice that.

Sure there is witnessing, knowing, being, experiencing - life-ing. The truth of this is in the direct experience. And then there are thoughts about this. Are these thoughts truth or only stories about it?

Are thoughts under ‘your’ control? Let me know if there is any doubt.

Brigitte x

User avatar
Carlyn
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:32 am

Re: Long Time Lurker Ready for a Guide

Postby Carlyn » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:36 am

Dear Brigitte,
Yes, but it is only an idea of choice. That is part of the illusion of control.
Choice is only an idea. Illusion of control. I've thought a lot about that today. I have mixed reactions. One is...NO, it can't be true! If I have no choice or control of my life, what's it all for? The second reaction is...ok so there is something else beyond me that runs things and I can just sit back and relax.
Yes, you experience a thought. Clearly you know when thinking is going on. The content is noted but is not experienced. That is the difference. It’s impossible to experience the ripe juicy peach of your thoughts – as it exists only in your imagination. This is the same for all thought content. It may point to the real but is never actually real itself. Can you see that?
Yes, your words cleared this for me "The content is noticed but is not experienced." Content is imagination. I'm trying to relate this understanding to the "I" thought but I'm still attached to that being real.
With close looking, it becomes easier to see the difference between experience and thought story. Look into nature and look at all life-ing. Watch how thoughts arise, how they label and comment on what is seen. So thoughts say ‘this’ or ‘that’, so what? In the absence of thinking, does life stop? What is real?
Seeing the difference between experience and the thought stories is something I have been working on for some time. This has improved and I'm hoping will become common. Is this a slow process or for some instantaneous? No, life does not stop with absence of thinking. Experience is real.
So a thought comes up that wants to label that sense of being. Just notice that.
That helps.... Just noticing doesn't give a label.
Sure there is witnessing, knowing, being, experiencing - life-ing. The truth of this is in the direct experience. And then there are thoughts about this. Are these thoughts truth or only stories about it?
Yes, thoughts are stories about the direct experiences, I can see that... Being, Oneness, Awareness are experiences not thoughts. Important insight for me.... I'm trying to label that so the mind can understand it and that's not likely to happen....wow.
Are thoughts under ‘your’ control? Let me know if there is any doubt.
With the realizations in this post I feel that I should be able to say there is no doubt...but if I'm honest I'm holding on to the notion that "I" have some control. When I ask myself why I still have doubts I wonder why some act on their thoughts and some are able to control them...example of criminals, serial killers having creepy thoughts and acting on them where most of us have crazy thoughts of one kind or another but have the ability to control them?

Thanks Brigitte...looking forward to hearing from you.

Warmest regards,
Carlyn


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests