Requesting a Guide

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cefleet
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Requesting a Guide

Postby cefleet » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:52 pm

Hi,

I'm requesting a guide to bring me through the gate.

Thanks!

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Re: Requesting a Guide

Postby sqnhoj » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:54 pm

My name is John, and I would be happy to accompany you as a guide.

Would you mind confirming that you have read and agree to the following?

1. You agree to post at least once a day.

(Caveat here--see below)

2. In general, I will ask the questions for you to respond to.
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

If you are unable to post once per day at least, just try to let me know, and if I'm going to be away with the chance of not being able to post, I'll try to let you know. If you are working through a response and need more time, a simple "checking in" would help.

If you agree to this, then kindly answer the following question:

What are your expectations with regard to liberation? How do you think it will feel, and how do you think it will change you?

I am in the Eastern U.S. time zone.

I'm looking forward to this journey.

Best wishes,

John

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Re: Requesting a Guide

Postby cefleet » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:29 pm

Hi John!

I am very grateful you have agreed to be my guide. My name is Chauncey, and I'm on Eastern U.S. time as well. Firstly, I agree to the conditions set forth in your post, and will post at least once per day. I occasionally go on business trips, and will let you know when those will happen (if any), during the journey.
What are your expectations with regard to liberation? How do you think it will feel, and how do you think it will change you?
My expectations are to just know that the self isn't real. I want to know that the self isn't real, just like I know Santa Claus isn't real. I'm there intellectually, but not there on the knowing basis. I expect life will go on pretty much the same as did prior to the liberation. It will change my perception of things, and I will go with the flow of life.

I have read the book Gateless Gatecrashers, and experienced some shifts. However, I'm not there yet.

Thanks!

-Chauncey

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Re: Requesting a Guide

Postby sqnhoj » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:05 pm

Chauncy,

Thanks for the quick reply. And thanks for sharing relatively realistic expectations. Seeing that the self is not real--that there is no self where you thought there always had been--or anywhere else for that matter--is exactly what this journey is all about. As to what experience is when that happens, I'd ask you to keep an open mind and a "let's see" attitude. As you indicated, believing doesn't cut it. Seeing in the broadest sense is what brings knowing. Glad to see you read Gateless Gatecrashers. It probably will help prepare you.

I want to stress again that this is a sensory journey, where I ask you to respond by looking at and describing based on your experience using the five senses primarily. Looking at the process of thinking can also be insightful, as long as we don't get sucked into the content.
I have read the book Gateless Gatecrashers, and experienced some shifts. However, I'm not there yet.
What is it that has "experienced some shifts"? Can you describe? You'll see we want to move beyond experiences, which always seem to come and go.

Also, please answer the following question. “What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or ever will be?”

Thanks,

John

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Re: Requesting a Guide

Postby cefleet » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:04 am

John,

Thanks for getting this rolling!
What is it that has "experienced some shifts"? Can you describe? You'll see we want to move beyond experiences, which always seem to come and go.
When I speak of a shift, I'm talking about how things affect me. For example, several years ago I started using brain entrainment meditation CDs. A few months later my employer eliminated my job. My employer had another job, but it required a long distance move. When I found out, this normally would have freaked me out, but it did not. I had what I called a shift. When I say shifts, it means that I've had experiences that make things seem to go smoother.
“What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or ever will be?”
What comes up is fear of losing control and frustration that I understand this intellectually, yet still unable to see it. If anything else comes up, I will post it.

Thanks,

Chauncey

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Re: Requesting a Guide

Postby sqnhoj » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:26 pm

Chauncy,

Good morning.
When I speak of a shift, I'm talking about how things affect me. For example, several years ago I started using brain entrainment meditation CDs. A few months later my employer eliminated my job. My employer had another job, but it required a long distance move. When I found out, this normally would have freaked me out, but it did not. I had what I called a shift. When I say shifts, it means that I've had experiences that make things seem to go smoother.
As I read your post, there was a reminder of the story that appeared (and sometimes occasionally still appears) here. Individual appearances are vastly overrated, because they come and go, appear and disappear, in the overall flow of direct experience. Is the "shift" a thought? Is it a combination of various sensations and thoughts? What do you mean by "make things go smoother"? Smoother than what? What is seeking for things to go smoother?
What comes up is fear of losing control and frustration that I understand this intellectually, yet still unable to see it. If anything else comes up, I will post it.
Look at control. Look intently and deeply at control. Where is it, and who or what controls? What control do you have that you are afraid to lose? Can you end hunger in even one country? Even one town or village? Are you able to win the lottery or make it so that I can win? Can you, at will, slow down your heart rate? Can you stop breathing for any significant length of time? Are you in control of your next thought, and the one after that, and the one after that...for an entire hour? After an honest look, tell me how much you control.

Thanks,

John

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Re: Requesting a Guide

Postby sqnhoj » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:42 pm

Individual appearances are vastly overrated,
Oops. I meant to say "individual experiences are vastly overrated.

Sorry,

John

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Re: Requesting a Guide

Postby cefleet » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:12 pm

John,
Is the "shift" a thought? Is it a combination of various sensations and thoughts? What do you mean by "make things go smoother"? Smoother than what? What is seeking for things to go smoother?
I view a shift as a change in perception. You see the world differently. By smoother, things that used to cause a lot of angst (such as the job going away), don't cause nearly as much, if any. When I was in "self-help" mode, doing things like Tony Robbins, Dr. Phil, et al, advocated, then seeking for things to go smoother would tie in with that. If something happens, then do "this" for the best outcome. I see now that these shifts, or individual experiences, don't need to happen to see the truth.
Look at control. Look intently and deeply at control. Where is it, and who or what controls? What control do you have that you are afraid to lose? Can you end hunger in even one country? Even one town or village? Are you able to win the lottery or make it so that I can win? Can you, at will, slow down your heart rate? Can you stop breathing for any significant length of time? Are you in control of your next thought, and the one after that, and the one after that...for an entire hour? After an honest look, tell me how much you control.
I am not in control of anything. I'm not sure who/what is in control, but it isn't me. I understand this on an intellectual level, it is getting to actually seeing it on a sensory level where it is coming up. The part I'm having trouble with is that "typing is happening" and I don't have control over what is being typed, or the fact that typing is happening. I was driving home from the gym just now, and "driving was happening". However, it still felt like I was in control of that, though I know I'm not.

Thanks,

Chauncey

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Re: Requesting a Guide

Postby sqnhoj » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:09 pm

Chauncey,

Hope it has been a good Labor Day holiday. Okay, down to business.
I view a shift as a change in perception. You see the world differently. By smoother, things that used to cause a lot of angst (such as the job going away), don't cause nearly as much, if any. When I was in "self-help" mode, doing things like Tony Robbins, Dr. Phil, et al, advocated, then seeking for things to go smoother would tie in with that. If something happens, then do "this" for the best outcome. I see now that these shifts, or individual experiences, don't need to happen to see the truth.
I'm going to start picking away at your language. Who/what sees the world differently, or who/what wants to see the world differently? "Differently" from what? If someone wants to see things differently, there is an assumption that that person has a view of what things "should" be, as opposed to what actually appears in experience. Is that in line with your direct experience?

There is a lot of conceptual thinking in your answer above.
I see now that these shifts, or individual experiences, don't need to happen to see the truth.
Can you describe this "seeing" process in what you say? Again, please stay with the senses or the overall process of thinking without getting entangled in the content of thoughts. Who/what "sees" that shifts don't need to happen to "see" the truth?
I am not in control of anything. I'm not sure who/what is in control, but it isn't me. I understand this on an intellectual level, it is getting to actually seeing it on a sensory level where it is coming up. The part I'm having trouble with is that "typing is happening" and I don't have control over what is being typed, or the fact that typing is happening. I was driving home from the gym just now, and "driving was happening". However, it still felt like I was in control of that, though I know I'm not.
Who or what is this "I" constantly referred to? Understand the need to communicate coherently, but this is an area where clarity is needed. You say, "it felt like I was in control of" driving. Understand there was a thought that you were in control. Thoughts come and they go, and we don't need to take the content so seriously. Other than the thought, how did it "feel" like you were in control? Can you describe that as simply and directly as possible? Avoid a conceptual description as much as you can, and describe it from the standpoint of your direct experience.

Here is a simple visual exercise. As typing occurs, watch visually what is happening on the screen. Don't add anything to the experience that does not show up. Then look at the keyboard and fingers moving on it. Look at what presents itself to your field of vision. What do you see? Don't add anything that is not occurring in your direct experience.

We can also explore the sensations of hearing and tactile feeling. As typing occurs, what do you hear? What arises in the sense of touch? If you don't add anything to the sensory experiences of seeing, hearing, and touching--with all the senses going in the present--is there any direct evidence of a person or thing or entity typing? We're on a mission of exploration. If there is someone, describe or point to that person so that I can see him.

Keep looking,

John

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Re: Requesting a Guide

Postby cefleet » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:35 am

John,

Hope you had a good Labor Day!
Who/what sees the world differently, or who/what wants to see the world differently? "Differently" from what? If someone wants to see things differently, there is an assumption that that person has a view of what things "should" be, as opposed to what actually appears in experience. Is that in line with your direct experience?
In considering the above, it is the mind that is labeling things differently. The things themselves aren't any different. They are being "filtered" with different filters.
Can you describe this "seeing" process in what you say? Again, please stay with the senses or the overall process of thinking without getting entangled in the content of thoughts. Who/what "sees" that shifts don't need to happen to "see" the truth?
It stems from what was typed above - the shifts are filters of the mind changing the labeling of things. The things themselves are not changing. Seeing is when it is known there is no Santa Claus, to use a pointing metaphor.
Who or what is this "I" constantly referred to? Understand the need to communicate coherently, but this is an area where clarity is needed. You say, "it felt like I was in control of" driving. Understand there was a thought that you were in control. Thoughts come and they go, and we don't need to take the content so seriously. Other than the thought, how did it "feel" like you were in control? Can you describe that as simply and directly as possible? Avoid a conceptual description as much as you can, and describe it from the standpoint of your direct experience.
The "I" is a reference to the self, which is an illusion. Hands operated the steering wheel, eyes were used to see to stay on the road, feet were used to accelerate and to brake when necessary. The neck was used to turn the head to see if there were other cars / obstacles on the road. Looking at it this way, there isn't an "I" involved.
Here is a simple visual exercise. As typing occurs, watch visually what is happening on the screen. Don't add anything to the experience that does not show up. Then look at the keyboard and fingers moving on it. Look at what presents itself to your field of vision. What do you see? Don't add anything that is not occurring in your direct experience.
As typing occurs, letters appear on the screen in the form of word. Noise comes from the keyboard, the screen is seen with the eyes. The cursor continues to blink. Family Guy can be heard on the TV in the other room. The keys can be felt by the fingers. The light illuminates the room. The fan is blowing air which can be felt on the face. Also the noise of the fan can be heard. When the keyboard is in sight, the hands can be seen to be typing words that show up in reply box on the monitor. There is no evidence for an "I".

I'll keep digging.

Thanks,

Chauncey

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Re: Requesting a Guide

Postby sqnhoj » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:21 am

Chauncey,

Good evening. So sorry for misspelling your name for the first few posts. Thanks for your substantive response.
In considering the above, it is the mind that is labeling things differently. The things themselves aren't any different. They are being "filtered" with different filters.
It is so easy to slip into conceptual thought and away from direct experience. One key was you said the phrase "in considering the above." Is "considering" a kind of sensing, or does it mean "thinking about." "Thinking about" is not going to get us there. It will never get us there. Where is this mind that labels? Can you point to its location? Can you describe its color and shape? Can you say anything about it that reflects direct experience (primarily senses) and is not a concept? While we are at it, where are those filters? What do they look, feel, sound like?
It stems from what was typed above - the shifts are filters of the mind changing the labeling of things. The things themselves are not changing. Seeing is when it is known there is no Santa Claus, to use a pointing metaphor.
Your last sentence is on target, but what does it have to do with what you just said? That's a rhetorical question only, because I do not want to engage you in a debate. Are you objectifying the "shifts" by calling them "filters"? If so, where are these filters? If they exist in your direct experience, you should be able to locate them, point to them, or describe them. Do they exist in your direct experience? If so, describe and point. If not, let them go as not relevant to this.
The "I" is a reference to the self, which is an illusion. Hands operated the steering wheel, eyes were used to see to stay on the road, feet were used to accelerate and to brake when necessary. The neck was used to turn the head to see if there were other cars / obstacles on the road. Looking at it this way, there isn't an "I" involved
Sounds good, and I'm assuming that you somehow saw or sensed your hands and feet. What about the eyes? Did you experience them directly in any way? I'm not asking you if you deduced their reality. I'm asking if you experienced eyes. I also wonder if you experienced a head or a neck in your direct experience. No assumptions here at all, please! I'm asking you to look at your direct experience and describe it and don't add any assumptions whatsoever from conventional reality or what other people (including me) tell you.

I want you to try a little experiment. Look out and point to an object somewhere in your field of vision. Get a little closer and point to your feet. Then your leg. Then your chest. You can see all these. Now point to your face, and what do you see? I'm not asking you to try to explain, because I'm sure you could. Please just report what you see. Nothing more. That's what I mean by direct experience.
As typing occurs, letters appear on the screen in the form of word. Noise comes from the keyboard, the screen is seen with the eyes. The cursor continues to blink. Family Guy can be heard on the TV in the other room. The keys can be felt by the fingers. The light illuminates the room. The fan is blowing air which can be felt on the face. Also the noise of the fan can be heard. When the keyboard is in sight, the hands can be seen to be typing words that show up in reply box on the monitor. There is no evidence for an "I".
Overall, a great description. This is what I'm asking you to do. I'll pick one thing apart. I'm sure you felt a sensation of blowing air, but did you really experience a face, since you can't see it. You felt blowing air, but what is it that felt that blowing air?

Your last paragraph is what I want to see more of. That doesn't mean I won't sometimes challenge, but my goal is for you to see through anything where a "self" might hide, whether it's a face, a head, or anything less physical.

Reactions to this so far?

Thanks for hanging in there.

John

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Re: Requesting a Guide

Postby cefleet » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:39 am

Hi John,

The body is not nearly as tired as it was, so typing is now happening.
It is so easy to slip into conceptual thought and away from direct experience. One key was you said the phrase "in considering the above." Is "considering" a kind of sensing, or does it mean "thinking about." "Thinking about" is not going to get us there. It will never get us there. Where is this mind that labels? Can you point to its location? Can you describe its color and shape? Can you say anything about it that reflects direct experience (primarily senses) and is not a concept? While we are at it, where are those filters? What do they look, feel, sound like?
The way "considering" was used was "thinking about." There is no location for the mind that I can find. The filters don't seem to be anywhere as well.
Are you objectifying the "shifts" by calling them "filters"? If so, where are these filters? If they exist in your direct experience, you should be able to locate them, point to them, or describe them. Do they exist in your direct experience? If so, describe and point. If not, let them go as not relevant to this.
The filters cannot be found in direct experience. Time to move on.
Sounds good, and I'm assuming that you somehow saw or sensed your hands and feet. What about the eyes? Did you experience them directly in any way? I'm not asking you if you deduced their reality. I'm asking if you experienced eyes. I also wonder if you experienced a head or a neck in your direct experience. No assumptions here at all, please! I'm asking you to look at your direct experience and describe it and don't add any assumptions whatsoever from conventional reality or what other people (including me) tell you.
The hands and feet were seen. The eyes were not seen. Neck must of been deduced by different images being seen. Eyeglass frames are experienced as they are directly seen.
I want you to try a little experiment. Look out and point to an object somewhere in your field of vision. Get a little closer and point to your feet. Then your leg. Then your chest. You can see all these. Now point to your face, and what do you see? I'm not asking you to try to explain, because I'm sure you could. Please just report what you see. Nothing more. That's what I mean by direct experience.
When pointing at the face happens, a finger is seen. The finger tip is seen first, then the rest of the finger appears behind it. Also, the other fingers and a thumb are seen. A lamp and computer monitor are seen as well. A picture, a wall, stuff on the desk can be seen as well.
Overall, a great description. This is what I'm asking you to do. I'll pick one thing apart. I'm sure you felt a sensation of blowing air, but did you really experience a face, since you can't see it. You felt blowing air, but what is it that felt that blowing air?
As the face could be seen, it couldn't be experienced. Some sort of awareness felt the blowing air. There was a sensation of blowing air, nothing else.
Reactions to this so far?
It seems like movement is happening towards pure experience. Prior what "polluted" it to begin with, if it can be put into words.

Thanks,

Chauncey

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Re: Requesting a Guide

Postby sqnhoj » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:28 am

Chauncey,

Glad to hear that the body has some energy to allow typing and looking and communicating.
The way "considering" was used was "thinking about." There is no location for the mind that I can find. The filters don't seem to be anywhere as well.
Thanks for your honesty. As much as possible, I want you to avoid "thinking about." The rest of your post indicates you're getting that.
The filters cannot be found in direct experience. Time to move on.
I agree. Word of warning: the aim here is to be thorough. I hope I don't try your patience in that process. The goal is for you to know that we have investigated every nook and cranny. Toward that end, I will prod and, if necessary, nag. I won't intentionally stall, but I want both of us to be satisfied that we didn't overlook anything. Truth in advertising.
The hands and feet were seen. The eyes were not seen. Neck must of been deduced by different images being seen. Eyeglass frames are experienced as they are directly seen.
The word "deduced" caught my attention. Deductive reason is not directly experiencing. You probably can't see your neck, although you can touch it. I wear glasses too, so I'll challenge you a little bit about that. While they are on your face (what face?), do you really see eyeglass frames? You see some shapes and perhaps colors, probably not very distinctly. If someone else is looking at you, they can see your glasses (and your neck too), but you presumably cannot. Direct experience does not allow for hearsay.

I don't want to just focus on visual experience, since you can touch your neck, your face, your glasses, etc. Let's work with that, but dropping all assumptions and hearsay.

Take your hands and touch your face and head. Touch all around as thoroughly as possible. Now, based on your tactile experience only and no assumptions, is what you are touching "you"? Are you located inside what you are touching?
It seems like movement is happening towards pure experience. Prior what "polluted" it to begin with, if it can be put into words.
It sounds like that. The way forward here is to search carefully for any place that a self might hide and see if it can be found.

In addition to the "head touching" exercise above, please answer this: in any area of experience, can you find someone or something or an entity that experiences? When you look at any area of experience, what is found?

Keep looking,

John

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Re: Requesting a Guide

Postby cefleet » Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:48 am

Hi John,

Hope your Friday is going well!
The word "deduced" caught my attention. Deductive reason is not directly experiencing. You probably can't see your neck, although you can touch it. I wear glasses too, so I'll challenge you a little bit about that. While they are on your face (what face?), do you really see eyeglass frames? You see some shapes and perhaps colors, probably not very distinctly. If someone else is looking at you, they can see your glasses (and your neck too), but you presumably cannot. Direct experience does not allow for hearsay.
On the eyeglasses, one cannot determine for sure that there are eyeglasses there. A frame can be seen, and sometime smudges floating in space in the area of seeing.
Take your hands and touch your face and head. Touch all around as thoroughly as possible. Now, based on your tactile experience only and no assumptions, is what you are touching "you"? Are you located inside what you are touching?
What is being touched can be described as skin and hair. "I" is not being touched. "I" is not located inside where the touching is happening.
In addition to the "head touching" exercise above, please answer this: in any area of experience, can you find someone or something or an entity that experiences? When you look at any area of experience, what is found?
My lower left side of my back is hurting, so that ought to be a good experience to investigate. Pain is being experienced. It appears to be lower and to the left of where thoughts seem to appear. When looking for an experiencer, none is found. Though the pain is being experience. However, by whom or what remains a mystery.

Itching just happened, and shortly thereafter, scratching happened. No experiencer can be found.

Will keep on looking!

Chauncey

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Re: Requesting a Guide

Postby sqnhoj » Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:41 am

Chauncey,

Thanks for the response. Happy Friday to you, and hope you have a great weekend (with, hopefully, opportunities to check in here.) We are hard taskmasters...no days off...unless you really need them. ;-)
What is being touched can be described as skin and hair. "I" is not being touched. "I" is not located inside where the touching is happening
How tempting to say that "skin and hair" are only labels. But I know what you mean. More importantly, you "get" the real point. No "I" where you are touching, and no "I" inside (where we sometimes think "we" reside). From all the evidence so far, no ghost in the machine. Do you find one?
My lower left side of my back is hurting, so that ought to be a good experience to investigate. Pain is being experienced. It appears to be lower and to the left of where thoughts seem to appear. When looking for an experiencer, none is found. Though the pain is being experience. However, by whom or what remains a mystery.

Itching just happened, and shortly thereafter, scratching happened. No experiencer can be found.
Certainly no need to belabor the obvious. Just a sidebar, pain can offer a special opportunity for looking deeply. Pain captures our attention because it demands our attention. The body is sending an alert. If the pain is not overwhelming and doesn't signal something that needs immediate medical care, it can be useful to just settle into the pain and experience it as much as possible without thought. I would not promise that the results will be relief from pain, but it might be intriguing to notice the changes in the experience. Obviously, do NOT put the body at risk!

Chauncey, based on your responses, I'm satisfied that you see no "self" as an experiencer and feel ready to move on. If you have any reservations with that, please let me know. Also, in an earlier response, you seemed pretty clear that there was no "you" doing or controlling. Once again, if you have any reservations, let me know.

In western culture, there seems to be a high value placed on freedom of choice. What comes up if I say that there is no "you" anywhere to make choices, and, of course, there's no "I" either to do that? How does choosing occur? Here is a simple example, if it helps make this objective. Take two objects/possibilities, of which you might ordinarily choose either e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper. Can you find the choice-point where you could go either way? Can you find anyone or anything to make the choice? In your experience, how does choosing happen? These are simple, what about the big ones? Choice of career? Choice of spouse/significant other? Choice of where you live? It's not just about coffee or tea. Again, if the statement is offered up that you do not choose anything (big or small), because there is no "you" to choose, what reactions arise?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

John


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