Eager for guidance

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
doesser
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:41 pm

Eager for guidance

Postby doesser » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:58 pm

Dear Guide,

I'm ready when you are. English is not my mother language. Hope this is okay.
Looking forward to meet you soon.
Dorine

User avatar
doesser
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:41 pm

Please help me to see.

Postby doesser » Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:55 pm

Hi,

I'm 54 years old and searching for truth since I was very little. In my 17 year meditation practice, I experienced sort of glimpses of just being that surpassed the 'I' feeling, but it never really broke through for me. I've already posted a request for guidance but perhaps I was to short and to shy in, so I post another one to be clear on the fact that I really want to see the truth I've so long searched for. It's as if I can feel it and touch it but then it drifts away, like the sometimes colorful dots or stripes I see when I close my eyes. The minute I look at them they go out of sight. Please help me to see. I'm afraid but ready.

Dorine

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Eager for guidance

Postby Sarah7 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:58 pm

Hi Dorine

Im Sarah and I will be happy to guide you.

Just to make sure. Can you please confirm you have read the link below.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

In particular, these points are very important. There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:
1. You agree to post at least once a day. What's needed is focus and intensity.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to.
3. Responses require your utmost honesty. Be 100% honest. It is very easy to deceive oneself, especially when it comes to something as subtle as the intimacy of your direct experience. Strive to be completely honest and transparent as to what is actually happening in your experience, this will make the process as smooth as possible.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Write from direct experience, not speculation. It is impossible to understate the importance of this; in order for any Direct Pointing session to be successful, it is your responsibility to examine your experience as it is, instead of resorting to speculation and theory-forming. The only way to get to the Gate and beyond is by directly looking at your actual experience of reality.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

OK. Shall we begin?
I experienced sort of glimpses of just being that surpassed the 'I' feeling, but it never really broke through for me
Can you explain this please.
Can you tell me how you came here? Can you tell me what you expect from this process? What you think the gate is and what you think you will be like after?

Look forward to working with you. Dont worry. Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
doesser
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:41 pm

Re: Eager for guidance

Postby doesser » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:22 pm

Hi Sarah,

Thank you so much for being my guide!
I confirm that I have read the link http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
and agree to the procedure and will be as honest and transparent as I can be.

I came here through a dear longtime friend and ordained Buddhist teacher. She pointed me to the website and we talked about it.
What I expect is to see reality as it really is. To cut through the illusion of self and therefore experience connectedness in stead of separateness. What I think of the gate is that it is a profound experience, a sort of mind shift which makes you see things as they really are and experience life differently. Sort of opening up and being more connected and at ease with how life unfolds. Being with what is instead of projecting and story telling and believing my thoughts…
I hope to be of better service to myself and others after entering the gate, to be more liberated, creative and less shy or hindered by old patterns. I volunteer in working with dying people.
I experienced sort of glimpses of just being that surpassed the 'I' feeling, but it never really broke through for me

I mean that a few times during meditation and also during other activities (washing the dishes) I had the experience of opening up. For instance cleaning the dishes it was as if I saw water for the first time. I was in awe, I was so amazed, it was beautiful and so ordinary at the same time. I wondered how come I've never noticed this before? Feeling so intimate so very close it felt like finally home. It was in a way so ridiculously close that it made me laugh and cry at the same time but crying from very light, loving, warm recognition. The outlines of 'me' fell away, it was not important as if there was only flow. It was new but also so familiar. But I only experienced this for a short time. Then it's gone and I'm left with the memory and I'm 'I' again.

This is it for now.
Looking forward to work with you too, feeling more at ease now thanks to your reassuring reply.
xxdorine

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Eager for guidance

Postby Sarah7 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:48 am

Hi Dorine
Where in the world are you Dorine? Im in England. I heard you say English is not your first language – so please make sure you ask if you do not understand anything that I write. OK.
I came here through a dear longtime friend and ordained Buddhist teacher. She pointed me to the website and we talked about it.
What I expect is to see reality as it really is. To cut through the illusion of self and therefore experience connectedness in stead of separateness. What I think of the gate is that it is a profound experience, a sort of mind shift which makes you see things as they really are and experience life differently. Sort of opening up and being more connected and at ease with how life unfolds. Being with what is instead of projecting and story telling and believing my thoughts…
Thank you for being so honest. I would ask you to put aside this expectation as expectations have a habit of getting in the way. If I see any expectation arising I will point it out for looking at. OK. I would also ask you to not to follow any other spiritual practise except your meditation during this process. Is that OK?
I mean that a few times during meditation and also during other activities (washing the dishes) I had the experience of opening up. For instance cleaning the dishes it was as if I saw water for the first time. I was in awe, I was so amazed, it was beautiful and so ordinary at the same time. I wondered how come I've never noticed this before? Feeling so intimate so very close it felt like finally home. It was in a way so ridiculously close that it made me laugh and cry at the same time but crying from very light, loving, warm recognition. The outlines of 'me' fell away, it was not important as if there was only flow. It was new but also so familiar. But I only experienced this for a short time. Then it's gone and I'm left with the memory and I'm 'I' again.
Do you expect this state to be permanent through the gate?

If I ask you to look, what does this mean to you? What is Direct experience?

Right now, what does ‘I’ point to? What is this ‘me’? What does ‘I’, ‘me’ refer to?

What comes up when it is read that there absolutely no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been, nor is there, nor will there ever be?
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
doesser
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:41 pm

Re: Eager for guidance

Postby doesser » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:16 pm

Hi Sarah,

I'm Dutch but I live in Belgium. I'll ask if I don't understand what you write.
I agree not to follow any other spiritual practise right now and will honestly try to put aside any expectations. It's perfectly OK with me that you point it out to me should expectations arise.
Do you expect this state to be permanent through the gate?
In fact I don't know. I really don't know what to expect.
If I ask you to look, what does this mean to you? What is Direct experience?
What I understand as Direct experience is noticing bodily sensations, checking inwards from own experience just sense, hear, feel, see without judgement or sticking concepts to it. If that is what you mean I practiced with that, don't find it easy.
Right now, what does ‘I’ point to? What is this ‘me’? What does ‘I’, ‘me’ refer to?
I is my body, my actions, my will. I can touch my body, feel contact with the keyboard, I feel my head, I notice I'm thinking. Can't grasp it though. There's now I place, no I spot, only my body. I'm investigating the I, strange, eery.
What comes up when it is read that there absolutely no "you" in any way, shape or form, there never has been, nor is there, nor will there ever be?
I feel resistance. Is this true? what is this? I feel doubt it feels a bit scary. If that's true there's nothing to hold on to? Feels weird. Can I still function if this is true? How can I check this? If there is no me where can I check this. How can I know? Who knows? What knows? Unease am I going crazy? Is this really happening that Sarah says to me there is no me, never has been? Still breathing… Is there only an I if others recognize me as I? I can't conceive the 'I' nor the 'not-I'. I direct my fingers on the keyboard.
This is what I come up with right now, but want to get deeper into your question, to investigate your questions.
Can you help me with Direct experience?


Dorinex

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Eager for guidance

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:41 am

Hi Dorine
In fact I don't know. I really don't know what to expect.
Good place to be!
What I understand as Direct experience is noticing bodily sensations, checking inwards from own experience just sense, hear, feel, see without judgement or sticking concepts to it. If that is what you mean I practiced with that, don't find it easy.
That’s fine.
I is my body, my actions, my will. I can touch my body, feel contact with the keyboard, I feel my head, I notice I'm thinking. Can't grasp it though. There's no I place, no I spot, only my body.
Does this mean you are looking for ‘I’? Are you looking in the body? Can you expand on this some more? For instance do you think ‘I’ is made up of your feelings and emotions as well? Anything else?
I feel resistance. Is this true? what is this? I feel doubt it feels a bit scary. If that's true there's nothing to hold on to? Feels weird. Can I still function if this is true? How can I check this? If there is no me where can I check this. How can I know? Who knows? What knows? Unease am I going crazy? Is this really happening that Sarah says to me there is no me, never has been? Still breathing… Is there only an I if others recognize me as I? I can't conceive the 'I' nor the 'not-I'.
Fine.
I direct my fingers on the keyboard.
This is what I come up with right now, but want to get deeper into your question, to investigate your questions.
Can you help me with Direct experience?
Yes! Below – a little experiment!

I don’t want you to talk about this experiment, don’t analyse, just do and look. Pay attention to sensations, to mind talking and interpreting and anything else you notice. I want you to make a cup of tea/coffee. Are ‘you’ making your body move or does it do it on its own? Can you really make your arm rise up, fill a kettle etc. Or does your body know what to do without you. Is there just movement? Can you hear mind say ‘look what I did, I did this…..’ Do ‘you’ decide to have a drink or does that decision just ‘pop’ into your head. Where does that thought come from? Is there a sensation that you interpret as ‘I need a drink’ or ‘I am hungry’? Can you hear thoughts chatter away whilst the body does, or is it like a commentary, or does the thought actually control. Look.
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
doesser
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:41 pm

Re: Eager for guidance

Postby doesser » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:54 pm

Hi Sarah,

I already looked at your reply this morning and immediately started the experiment.
Today is kind of a busy day so I will answer some questions now and perhaps continue tonight.
Does this mean you are looking for ‘I’? Are you looking in the body? Can you expand on this some more? For instance do you think ‘I’ is made up of your feelings and emotions as well? Anything else?
I looked in the body for an I or a fixed self but couldn't find it, the best thing I can come up with as an I is the body as a whole with my skin as the outward me-boundery. Feelings, emotions and thoughts are not mine. They come and go. The only thing I can choose or do, is let them flow, let them go, or give them attention and act on them. Sometimes they still fool me, in fact regularly they do, then it helps me to say to myself: 'There is a feeling, in stead of, I feel. Or There is a thought, instead of I think.' Thanks to my meditation practice the pause between feeling/thinking and acting or reacting becomes larger. This gives me the time to experience, to see, to analyse, to get inspired, before I act/react. So 'I' is not made up of my feelings/thoughts and I experience that more and more.
I don’t want you to talk about this experiment, don’t analyse, just do and look. Pay attention to sensations, to mind talking and interpreting and anything else you notice. I want you to make a cup of tea/coffee. Are ‘you’ making your body move or does it do it on its own? Can you really make your arm rise up, fill a kettle etc. Or does your body know what to do without you. Is there just movement? Can you hear mind say ‘look what I did, I did this…..’ Do ‘you’ decide to have a drink or does that decision just ‘pop’ into your head. Where does that thought come from? Is there a sensation that you interpret as ‘I need a drink’ or ‘I am hungry’? Can you hear thoughts chatter away whilst the body does, or is it like a commentary, or does the thought actually control. Look.
Busy with it. Fascinating! Will report on it later.

Thanks Sarah very helpful!
xx
dorine

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Eager for guidance

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:00 am

Hi Dorine
Will reply when you have got it all done then. OK.
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
doesser
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:41 pm

Re: Eager for guidance

Postby doesser » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:04 am

Hi Sarah,

I tried to do the 'look experiment' several times with as much attention as I could, and also during the day, during different circumstances when I remembered it, when it came to mind.
I don’t want you to talk about this experiment, don’t analyse, just do and look.
I didn't talk about the experiment. I tried to do and look, but if I do it with focussed attention my mind tends to analyze the whole time. There is a constant chattering and analyzing and interpreting in my head. But I also managed to just do and look.
Pay attention to sensations, to mind talking and interpreting and anything else you notice. I want you to make a cup of tea/coffee. Are ‘you’ making your body move or does it do it on its own?
The more focussed I am, the slower my actions, so I can notice better, but also the more analyzing goes on in my head! When I'm more focussed in noticing and doing what I do, it seems that I control, or direct my actions more than when I'm busy doing the exercise but less deliberately focussed or slow in my movements. Then my actions appear more as impulses and pop ups, and my body knows what to do without me commanding or directing.
Or does your body know what to do without you. Is there just movement?
The moments I realize my body is doing what it's doing without me really having a say in it, I feel a bit strange, my legs start to tingle and it's like I'm observing movement not being in my body, as if I'm outside this body or entity, but feeling the bodily sensations as well. Strange. But then the analyzing starts and I have to start all over again.
does the thought actually control.
It feels as if my body is 'I' empty. It's just moving and doing. The commentary in my head: 'If this is true are you still responsible for your deeds? Thoughts travel faster than light, so perhaps you have thoughts before you lift your arm, you're commanding your arm, but this command goes so fast at light speed, that your slow brain doesn't notice etcetera.' Still I don't have the impression there is a directing or commanding thought before the action with most of my actions. But when I decide: 'Now I will lift my arm', I can do it.
Can you hear thoughts chatter away whilst the body does
Yes I can. My mind chatters endlessly while my body does things, it opens the cabinet to take a cup for the tea at that moment I think:
‘look what I did, I did this…..’
Is there a sensation that you interpret as ‘I need a drink’ or ‘I am hungry’?
Yes a dry mouth or or rumbling belly, bodily signals or sensations remind me that I'm hungry and that I need to eat something. But I didn't notice that there is always first the thought and then the action. It's more like popping up. No idea where those thoughts come from. Sometimes they're triggered by something: bodily signals? Sometimes I remember to do something: i.e. the experiment making tea and look. The chatter in my mind is absolutely not in control it's commentary. But still, sometimes the thoughts seem to be in control for instance when I decide to do the exercise, to look, to notice, to search for bodily sensations and emotions. I find the exercise not easy, confusing, but not unpleasant. It shatters me a bit, so I also feel resistance as well: thinking its to complicated for me. But when I stick with it it's fascinating.
Hope I understood/interpreted your questions correctly, trying to be without expectations :)
Looking forward to more exercise and feeling a mild resistance at the same time…

xxDorine

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Eager for guidance

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:18 am

Hi Dorine
I looked in the body for an I or a fixed self but couldn't find it, the best thing I can come up with as an I is the body as a whole with my skin as the outward me-boundary. Feelings, emotions and thoughts are not mine. They come and go. The only thing I can choose or do, is let them flow, let them go, or give them attention and act on them. Sometimes they still fool me, in fact regularly they do, then it helps me to say to myself: 'There is a feeling, in stead of, I feel. Or There is a thought, instead of I think.' Thanks to my meditation practice the pause between feeling/thinking and acting or reacting becomes larger. This gives me the time to experience, to see, to analyse, to get inspired, before I act/react. So 'I' is not made up of my feelings/thoughts and I experience that more and more.
Sit comfortably. Shut your eyes and be still. Look closely at thoughts during this. Where is your skin? Can you feel it? Or do you feel a sensation called skin? Or a thought that your skin is there. Or a labelling thought?

How do you choose to let thoughts flow? How do you let thoughts go, or give them attention, or act on them? Is this really happening or are thoughts telling you you are letting them flow, go, etc. Look.
The moments I realize my body is doing what it's doing without me really having a say in it, I feel a bit strange, my legs start to tingle and it's like I'm observing movement not being in my body, as if I'm outside this body or entity, but feeling the bodily sensations as well. Strange. But then the analysing starts and I have to start all over again.
Why start again? What is the difference between the body doing without you controlling it and thoughts thinking without you controlling them? Simply notice.
But when I decide: 'Now I will lift my arm', I can do it.
Are you sure? Or is it thoughts telling you that they lifted the arm? Check. How do you know there is a relationship between the thought and the action?

Look at movement and thought through your day (when you remember!) check and see if you can find a self moving the body around. Walking, eating, typing, dressing yourself, etc. Is there a WHO living your life? Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life? Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body. Are you or thoughts in control of movement at anytime?
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
doesser
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:41 pm

Re: Eager for guidance

Postby doesser » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:51 pm

Hello Sarah,

Busy looking.
Sit comfortably. Shut your eyes and be still. Look closely at thoughts during this. Where is your skin? Can you feel it? Or do you feel a sensation called skin? Or a thought that your skin is there. Or a labelling thought?
As I look concepts fall away, labelling becomes clear. But thought behind thought behind thought is making me dizzy, losing my? way. Who's looking through my eyes? Who's feeling my skin? In fact I only feel my skin vaguely, only where it touches the surface of the chair and even then if i feel and look it's not quite clear where my skin begins or ends? I have a notion of it but I don't really feel it.
How do you choose to let thoughts flow? How do you let thoughts go, or give them attention, or act on them? Is this really happening or are thoughts telling you you are letting them flow, go, etc. Look.
I don't know anymore! Its all thoughts!? But who's thinking? Endless thoughts? No reality?
Are you sure? Or is it thoughts telling you that they lifted the arm? Check. How do you know there is a relationship between the thought and the action?
Working on it. A difficult one. I need more time to look, feel, check. There isnt something real untill now I can only experience thoughts emotions and sensations. Can't find a beginning. Nothing owns the body... Huh? Cant think my way out of this one!
Who is living this life tell me?
Its a mystery to me.
Love dorine

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Eager for guidance

Postby Sarah7 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:22 am

Hi Dorine
As I look concepts fall away, labelling becomes clear. But thought behind thought behind thought is making me dizzy, losing my? way. Who's looking through my eyes? Who's feeling my skin? In fact I only feel my skin vaguely, only where it touches the surface of the chair and even then if i feel and look it's not quite clear where my skin begins or ends? I have a notion of it but I don't really feel it.
When you say you feel your skin vaguely – do you directly feel it? Or again is that a thought, a label?

Sit on the chair again – go to where bottom meets chair. Is it really bottom meets chair? Where does one end and the other begin? Where is the line? Is it one or two sensations? Look.
I don't know anymore! Its all thoughts!? But who's thinking? Endless thoughts? No reality?
I don’t know is a good place to be! Who is thinking? Is there a thinker of thoughts? Or is there just thinking being experienced?
Working on it. A difficult one. I need more time to look, feel, check.

Fine.
There isnt something real untill now I can only experience thoughts emotions and sensations. Can't find a beginning. Nothing owns the body... Huh?
Good – keep looking.
Cant think my way out of this one!
No you cant! Well spotted.
Who is living this life tell me?
No. You tell me! Look.
Love Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
doesser
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:41 pm

Re: Eager for guidance

Postby doesser » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:17 am

Dear Sarah,

Confused and resistance… but working on it. My sister came to visit me. Difficult circumstances.
Be back with you soon
xx Dorine

User avatar
doesser
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:41 pm

Re: Eager for guidance

Postby doesser » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:16 am

Hi Sarah,

Trying to be with the look and feel during the visit of (my) sister.
When you say you feel your skin vaguely – do you directly feel it? Or again is that a thought, a label?
No, I don't directly feel it. It's labeling.
Sit on the chair again – go to where bottom meets chair. Is it really bottom meets chair? Where does one end and the other begin? Where is the line? Is it one or two sensations? Look.
Difficult to stay with looking and feeling, trying to find a way through the jungle of thoughts. Some tiny moments I just feel and look. No frontier, no border bewteen chair and skin. Feel like a Barbapapa but don't know if you're familiar with the Barbaba family. They can take any shape they want as a reaction to the environment.
Feeling unbelieve (resistant thought) that pulls me out of the experince: 'no you're kidding me! This is unbelievable!'
Is it one or two sensations?
Two sensations? I can only feel one sort of all inclusive sensation?
If I allow this looking and feeling, there's some kind of lightness in my limbs/body and in the head behind the eye?

Keeping up the exercise.
Xxdorine


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests