Requesting a guide please

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Poppy
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Requesting a guide please

Postby Poppy » Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:09 am

Hello. I am 64. After many years of deep delving, firstly because of an out-of-body, "near-death" experience at age 29, the aftermath of which eventually brought me in contact with the works of J Krishnamurti, and then the help of a trauma psychiatrist to heal a greatly fractured psyche, or self narrative, all desire to seek fell away. To be perfectly honest I don't know why I am writing -- asking for perhaps a clarification?

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Metta777
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Re: Requesting a guide please

Postby Metta777 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:25 pm

Hi Poppy,
I would be willing to be your guide , please let me know you have read the disclaimer and agree. Agree to daily communication, just once a day, agree to put aside any religious or other beliefs temporarily. Meditation is okay.

Thanks, Metta777
"This too shall pass"

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Re: Requesting a guide please

Postby Poppy » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:47 am

Hello Metta, thank you for responding to my request. I have read the disclaimer and agree, daily communication is fine with me, not religious or anything "-ist", and don't meditate.

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Re: Requesting a guide please

Postby Metta777 » Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:04 am

Okay Poppy,

Then lets get started. The first question is, Is there a self? Try to sit, relaxed, look within or around also and tell me if there is a self anywhere that can be seen or apprehended. Then perhaps go into some discussion of what is expected of the process here, what is the hope for accomplishment? The goal? Try to answer as honestly and as detailed as possible so we know where in the process we are. Thank You, Peace, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: Requesting a guide please

Postby Poppy » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:33 pm

Thank you Metta. Here is my response to your last:

Influenced by years of delving into Krishnamurti, the occasional group dialogue with the physicist David Bohm, later research studies in preparation for writing a thesis entitled Self Conceptualisation, more importantly from a much earlier “Near-Death encounter” which flew in the face of all prior experience and beliefs, and many later cognitive dissonances you might say, I’m convinced the “conscious self” is an illusion. However for the purpose of guidance, I know it’s important that I put all that aside and “look within or around also and tell me if there is a self anywhere that can be seen or apprehended”. So...

Is there a self?
As I sit and look....some kind of consciousness behind the windows of my eyes seems to be doing the looking. There’s a recollection of having this rather strange sensation as a child. Thoughts are now telling me that this is a universal consciousness, but I have no idea if that is so or not.

Goal?
I guess I am simply curious to know whether I come under your definition of having “awakened”. Please know that it would not affect or offend me if either way. What made me curious was that I have a dear friend who is highly intelligent, meditates daily, and runs a website and blog for awakened souls, and says all the right things while constantly comparing herself favourably with others and living in complete physical and verbal contradiction. While this apparent contradiction in behaviour and beliefs often astounds me, I have no quarrel with it or her. So perhaps my second question is....What the fuck?! Now I’ve made myself laugh.

Does this give us a starting point or am I barking up the wrong tree?

With affection for the road.... Poppy

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Re: Requesting a guide please

Postby Metta777 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:17 am

Hi Poppy,

LOL, no its a good tree.
I’m convinced the “conscious self” is an illusion. However for the purpose of guidance, I know it’s important that I put all that aside and “look within or around also and tell me if there is a self anywhere that can be seen or apprehended”. So...


Is there any self, conscious or unconscious? When looking, there are 6 streams , 5 sense streams, seeing ,hearing, etc. Then thought. Is there a doer? Or is it awareness being, instead of doing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 6S9OidmNZM

Your thoughts on this after viewing. Peace and Light, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: Requesting a guide please

Postby Poppy » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:36 pm

Thank you Metta. I watched the video. I had read a research paper of a similar experiment some years ago. It’s a powerful argument for how little, if anything at all, that that thing we think of as our self is in control of thoughts, actions, decision-making and so on. After watching that video I came across the following which was immensely moving: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUtH0DDJorM Perhaps you’ve seen it.

Since our last conversation and after watching the above videos, I have noticed a changing turn of mind, a slightly different attitude, a real dawning realisation of self’s volitional powerlessness in terms of that which drives the body and one’s thoughts, actions and reactions. I haven’t found this dawning of some new reality frightening. Instead there’s a kind of humungous awe, an almost blissful sensation around the heart area.

You ask, is there any self, conscious or unconscious? There is consciousness, or whatever you want to call it, ‘awareness’ perhaps. I do not think that conscious awareness could be called self or anything else. It just is.

You say there are 6 streams in looking: seeing ... hearing ... etc. Plus thought. When I am in total awareness, when something is taking up my whole attention, there is nothing else. I have seen that when I really look, really listen, really give attention with my whole being, nothing else is happening. I am lost. I’ve also noticed that when a thought appears, I AM the thought. It’s only afterward that I see that certain thoughts were there.

No, Metta, I am not the doer. That is to say, WE are not the doers. The rest is a mystery.

Poppy.

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Re: Requesting a guide please

Postby Metta777 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:43 am

Hi Poppy,

Thank you, the video was wonderful!! :-)
You say there are 6 streams in looking: seeing ... hearing ... etc. Plus thought. When I am in total awareness, when something is taking up my whole attention, there is nothing else. I have seen that when I really look, really listen, really give attention with my whole being, nothing else is happening. I am lost. I’ve also noticed that when a thought appears, I AM the thought. It’s only afterward that I see that certain thoughts were there.

Yes, the streams that were mentioned are Direct Experience which is how we test perception. But there is the thought that we have skipped past that already. One thing that was noticed is the statement, " I Am the thought."
Are you? Is there anything in Awareness? Or is there just awareness? We don't want to take the self and put it on another horse so to speak. When looking can the body be separated from it's environment? Is there a line perceivable? Notice that the question was not physically, but in "Awareness".


Thank you , Poppy, Namaste, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: Requesting a guide please

Postby Metta777 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:09 am

Hi Poppy,

Not keeping up your end here of daily contact, except Sundays.
Regards, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: Requesting a guide please

Postby Poppy » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:57 pm

Sincere apologies for not keeping up daily contact Metta.

Referring to that last post When I wrote, "I AM the thought", what was meant was that when thoughts are up and running, there's nothing but the train of thought. Whatever the thing/means/energy is that operates this body/mind, including all of its thoughts, it is not "me" that has control over all of that and nor is there a "me" who is separate from thoughts - thought/memories being the source of self-identification. Oh how hard it is to talk about what's going on in "this" self, "my" self, "this body/mind" when trying to explain these thoughts to someone other.

But, even knowing this - that the "I" has a "validity" only within the thoughts that produce it - knowing this seems to have no impact. It's not like there are different behaviours, or different thinkings, or no thoughts. There is greater tolerance of other people's quirks, but there's not really any fundamental change. Should there be?

Thank you for hanging in there Metta. Time flies.

Poppy

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Re: Requesting a guide please

Postby Poppy » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:09 pm

P.S. This is the next morning. There's a whiff of fear associated with seeing the real nothingness of oneself, at some level.

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Re: Requesting a guide please

Postby Metta777 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:13 am

Hi Poppy,

This is a natural thing to fear for the mind, after so many years of believing it exists. But what is actually being lost? If there is only awareness and thoughts arising there is really no one to lose, is there?
"I AM the thought", what was meant was that when thoughts are up and running, there's nothing but the train of thought. Whatever the thing/means/energy is that operates this body/mind, including all of its thoughts, it is not "me" that has control over all of that and nor is there a "me" who is separate from thoughts - thought/memories being the source of self-identification.
Yes, just thoughts arising, energy getting exchanged perhaps, but no, " I AM" , just the action of the thought is all. Does awareness have to have an identity? An I ? Yes, that is correct, no you, no me. When thinking about this, can you see a line in awareness that separates Metta and Poppy? Or is it just the concept? But energy doesn't die it just transforms. Namaste, metta
"This too shall pass"

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Poppy
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Re: Requesting a guide please

Postby Poppy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:33 pm

Hello again Metta
Re:
"When thinking about this, can you see a line in awareness that separates Metta and Poppy? Or is it just the concept? But energy doesn't die it just transforms."

There's no way of knowing what's the case with another person. There's awareness, and there's awareness of interaction with another, but what Metta experiences is unknown. So awareness appears to have....boundaries.......?

Kind regards,
Poppy

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Poppy
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Re: Requesting a guide please

Postby Poppy » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:25 am

Again, this is the next morning.
Going back to the question that kicked this conversation off, now reckoning that that gateway has not been crossed. Also it seems a new kind of language has to be invented where its understood that when one uses the pronoun "I" it means, "from this particular point of view", or "from this bundle of memories/thoughts that was previously identified with "Poppy", as the "Poppy self", as opposed to THAT bundle of neuronal activity that identified with Metta, or YOUR self"!

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Poppy
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Re: Requesting a guide please

Postby Poppy » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:29 am

....because that's what's doing the talking, at least from Poppy's side of the communication fence :)


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