Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Mumbler
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

Postby Mumbler » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:42 pm

I'm fairly confident that everything can become clear very soon.
Long story short:

Began meditating for the assumed benefits.
Somehow wasn't interested in the benefits anymore but the actual "liberation." Kept meditating for about 1,5 years.
Had a break from meditation for about a year, probably because it didn't feel natural anymore.
Red quite a few books on Zen, Taoism, Buddhist sutras and such.
Began meditating again, but soon came to see it as unnecessary, hindering, unnatural and it created some stress, especially the concentration part of it.
Have been starting to see that I don't know much at all. Been starting to see myself as something very simple that can't be conceptualized.
Red Alan Watts' book on Taoism, which dropped some of my remaining ideas about the necessity of meditation and made me feel a little more free because of that, and because of the philosophy of not forcing things (I am willing to forget all of that I've read, which seems to be pretty much the way it was intented to be.)

Now, at times I feel like I (this body and mind?) am in more and more harmony with the surroundings and happenings. Today I experienced some kind of effortless spontaneity, which happened more intensely and more spontaneusly than ever before. These feelings come and go.

Now I'm willing to go through the process you're offering. I don't have any anxiety or fear about it, but who knows, maybe they'll appear. At least I'm not afraid of fear anymore.

I'm not sure if there is any kind of self involved in this life, but I'm eager to find out. That's pretty much the only expectation I have.

I've read the rules and the stuff from the Disclaimer and feel that I'm ready to begin!

User avatar
kvotski
Posts: 1148
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:31 am

Re: Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

Postby kvotski » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:11 am

Hello Mumbler,

My name is Sunil, we use first names. I would be happy to guide you if you like.

Regards.

User avatar
Mumbler
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Re: Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

Postby Mumbler » Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:36 am

Hey!
My name is Mikael.
Can we start?
Thank you for appearing :)
I will post at least once a day.
I hope it doesn't become too clumsy, since it's 5:35 am at the moment in Finland and probably a normal time in where you are.
Where are you from?
Ok let's begin!

User avatar
Mumbler
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Re: Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

Postby Mumbler » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:47 am

I hope this is at least somehow relevant. I really feel like writing this here to clarify my first post:
My expectation is to know whether there is a self or not, but it also means to me to become free. It also means a great relief and maybe then I or whatever it is that does things, has the courage to start to do what it really wants. Or maybe that I can drop all of these expectations and just live happily with the way things are.

User avatar
kvotski
Posts: 1148
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:31 am

Re: Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

Postby kvotski » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:41 pm

Hello Mikael,

Looks like you have already read the rules and ready to go. It is absolutely ok to write as often as you like, we just want a minimum of once a day to make sure you are still thinking about this.

Just to reiterate, no outside reading and putting aside other practices until we are through here.

To begin, can you please describe in detail, what I, me, or self mean to you? When you say my body, what does it mean? Close your eyes and brush your hair, massage your face and close.y monitor what is felt? Is that your or hair at all? Or something stringy that the mind labels? Is that a face or just a smooth surface? Even deeper, what makes them yours as opposed just strings or just smooth surface?

Welcome, Mikael.

User avatar
Mumbler
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Re: Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

Postby Mumbler » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:49 pm

Hi, Sunil!

The "self" means to me that there's somebody or something that moves this body, thinks and perhaps experiences things.
Where is this "me"? The actual self seems to be nowhere to be found. I know that the body is not me, but am I in the body?
The way I see it at this moment is that it is the thoughts or the thinking that contain the self. I feel like there's a separate self thinking.
Maybe sometimes there's a self that seems to be thought about, but this is seen as an illusion very quickly.

Many times when this body moves, it seems to me that there's no actual sense of self there in those actions. Not anymore. If the actions need planning / thinking, then the self seems to appear more frequently.

"My body" means to me that it is me able to move this body and feel and sense through it. This sense of moving comes and goes.

I don't really think that much that this is my body.. But when I brush and massage the hair and face that way, the experience seems "mine" because there's no one else who can feel that. I don't notice the mind labeling the experience, but there seems to be someone experiencing the feelings in the hands. That experiencer seems to be very faint, almost non-existent. The mind didn't say "this is hair" or anything. There was just feeling of it. I don't know if it's hair or not. It just is. "Hair" is a word, and I know I wasn't touching a word. I don't know if it's mine or not. I know that I've assumed for a long time that the hair is mine. Now I simply don't know anymore.

User avatar
kvotski
Posts: 1148
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:31 am

Re: Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

Postby kvotski » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:13 pm

Hello Mikael:

Great work. Let's look at them one at a time.
Where is this "me"? The actual self seems to be nowhere to be found. I know that the body is not me, but am I in the body?
The way I see it at this moment is that it is the thoughts or the thinking that contain the self. I feel like there's a separate self thinking.
Maybe sometimes there's a self that seems to be thought about, but this is seen as an illusion very quickly.
If the actual self is nowhere to be found, how could the "I" be hiding in the body, has any doctor ever reported it as an object? Or do you mean it is hiding as an idea? Question that and go deeper. May be you are right and it is an illusion.. Find out for sure.
Many times when this body moves, it seems to me that there's no actual sense of self there in those actions. Not anymore. If the actions need planning / thinking, then the self seems to appear more frequently.
So let's find the self that is appearing more frequently. How does it manifest, definitely not as an object? Find out what is thinking or planning? Trace back the thoughts and see it arise in you. Did it come from a source inside or was it triggered by an event outside, mostly without any input or control from you? e.g. a call from the boss gets the planning for a meeting go or a hint from the wife gets you to go to the store...
"My body" means to me that it is me able to move this body and feel and sense through it. This sense of moving comes and goes.
Really? Move your hand now or look at the fingers typing on the computer. Is it a conscious action by a you, which by the way we still have to find, or is it just happening with years of practice? This is critical. spend some time looking, MiKael.
I don't really think that much that this is my body.. But when I brush and massage the hair and face that way, the experience seems "mine" because there's no one else who can feel that. I don't notice the mind labeling the experience, but there seems to be someone experiencing the feelings in the hands. That experiencer seems to be very faint, almost non-existent.
Is the experience yours or are you assuming it is yours since you can't find anyone else who can feel that? Is it faint or nonexistent? Feeling is happening but is there a you owning this? Fingers contact hair, friction causes some signal go to a brain which it rapidly (speed of light or electronic pulse) labels yours and the feeling happens. Look if this is how you see it as well?
The mind didn't say "this is hair" or anything. There was just feeling of it. I don't know if it's hair or not. It just is. "Hair" is a word, and I know I wasn't touching a word. I don't know if it's mine or not. I know that I've assumed for a long time that the hair is mine. Now I simply don't know anymore.[/quote]

Absolutely spot on, you just don't know if it is yours. Why? May be because there is no you?

We are on our way, Mikael.

Come back with lots of words...

User avatar
Mumbler
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Re: Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

Postby Mumbler » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:00 pm

Hello, Sunil :)
If the actual self is nowhere to be found, how could the "I" be hiding in the body, has any doctor ever reported it as an object? Or do you mean it is hiding as an idea? Question that and go deeper. May be you are right and it is an illusion.. Find out for sure.
When thinking happens, it feels like there is someone thinking.
There appears an intention of some kind when thinking happens. Maybe preceding it, maybe at the same time. Not sure. Actually there are some short kinds of thoughts that come without an intention. But it doesn't matter. It's all the same.
Anyway, it's possible that this intention, thinking and the feeling of me thinking is happening all by itself. How do I find out?
So let's find the self that is appearing more frequently. How does it manifest, definitely not as an object? Find out what is thinking or planning? Trace back the thoughts and see it arise in you. Did it come from a source inside or was it triggered by an event outside, mostly without any input or control from you? e.g. a call from the boss gets the planning for a meeting go or a hint from the wife gets you to go to the store...
I have the habit / addiction of smoking. When there comes an idea about smoking, it seems to come from inside, but I can't find any self triggering that idea to come. Then the intention of smoking does or doesn't appear. When the intention appears at some point, it seems like I have a choice whether to smoke or not. That's exactly where the self seems to be. There is pondering about it happening. This, like everything can easily be just happening by itself. But where's the certainty? I will need to look into this more.
Really? Move your hand now or look at the fingers typing on the computer. Is it a conscious action by a you, which by the way we still have to find, or is it just happening with years of practice? This is critical. spend some time looking, MiKael.
Actually, the sense of me doing it comes only when there is a thought about it first. But I can't find any "me" bringing that thought into the mind. There might be an intention to think or a feeling of something like intention, but even that intention comes without "my" help. At least I don't find anyone when I trace it back to the source. Everything just happens. Even this tracing can happen by itself. It's just more complex to look into.
I'm still not totally convinced though.
Really? Move your hand now or look at the fingers typing on the computer.
All of this you suggested happened because you suggested. But it might be that I actually allowed that happen, but I didn't notice any choice there.
There is no feeling of self in the movement. There is just feeling.
By the way, the way these fingers move on this keyboard seems utterly complex. Yet it happens with no effort. It just hasn't been noticed before since I always look at the screen while typing.
Is the experience yours or are you assuming it is yours since you can't find anyone else who can feel that?
Suddenly I don't see any difference between "mine" and "no one's".
The thing is that I assumed that enlightenment seems like the "me" is same and not separate from the experience.
But now it seems more like there is just experience.
Is it faint or nonexistent? Feeling is happening but is there a you owning this? Fingers contact hair, friction causes some signal go to a brain which it rapidly (speed of light or electronic pulse) labels yours and the feeling happens. Look if this is how you see it as well?
I see some sort of assumption of myself involved in that experience. Seems to be how you said it.
Absolutely spot on, you just don't know if it is yours. Why? May be because there is no you?
I ASSUME that's because there's no me. But how can I be certain?
I don't know if anything is mine anymore. Though I noticed that when I got back home from outside, this place felt comfortably familiar. But there's no one claiming to own this place. Yet I know it's legally mine and stuff like that.
When I look into the mirror, I see something familiar. I know that's something that's ought to be me and people call it Mikael. This is just a big wonder now. The more I look into things, the less I seem to know. Yet at the moment of realizing it seems like more is added, but it's more like something is removed.


What more can I say? It's like the separate self was an illusion. Everything stays the same, yet everything feels different and I'm sure things are going to change.
But have I really seen through this? Perhaps not completely yet. I want to continue, to make this complete!
I've laughed during writing and reading this like 10 times. Has been fun. It's like when I see through something, laughing happens. But is there anyone who sees?

User avatar
kvotski
Posts: 1148
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:31 am

Re: Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

Postby kvotski » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:37 pm

Laughing is good, Mikael. We are no where done yet, just wanted you to know. Do the exercises one more time, you are getting a lot out of the.

I want you to add making choices to this mix. How do you decide to have tea not coffe, go for a walk or just watch more tv?

Btw, I am an ex smoker. Please do not draw any conclusion from your habit, nicotine is the worse drug there is and both of us are possessed addicts never to be rid of it, just in control, if you are lucky.

I can see a breakthrough in your words already...hang on...

User avatar
Mumbler
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Re: Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

Postby Mumbler » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:32 pm

An idea comes. Then it's like I AM choosing whether to do what the idea says or not.
When I looked at the idea of whether to eat or not, it disappeared. That's weird. It was like I should make a choice, but then the actual choice disappeared and I just stayed by the computer.
Now the idea returned. I'm confused. Now it seems like the idea doesn't have much power.
Now there's thinking about what to do, but it doesn't effect the way things are happening.
"I have to eat", a thought says. "But I am not that hungry", says another one. Nothing happens.
There is calmness. I feel like something should be done. But nothing happens. I just sit here.
Any thought or idea that is looked at disappears. I feel like something is missing. But there is calmness.
These words have appeared little by little while I've been sitting here. I'll leave it here for now.

User avatar
Mumbler
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Re: Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

Postby Mumbler » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:50 pm

Now I just got up and went to take some food from the fridge. There was no thought or intention to do so. I didn't notice any. It just happened.

User avatar
kvotski
Posts: 1148
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:31 am

Re: Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

Postby kvotski » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:19 pm

Great stuff, Mikael. Look at many decisions that are made. Is there a you necessary to make them?
Try to go against what has been decided. Can you force a choice? Or is it just happening by cause and effect?

Let's go back to thoughts. Can you stop them? Try. A thought comes. Where did it come from? Another comes , where did the last one go?

I have to go to yoga now, may be will check the post late at night. Best wishes.

User avatar
Mumbler
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Re: Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

Postby Mumbler » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:11 pm

I tried to go against a decision. I could do it for like 15 seconds and then the decision happened to do what was originally decided. The second time it took only like 2 seconds. Both times it felt like I had a reason to do what was decided. The un-decision didn't work for very long. Even deciding to go against decision is a result of cause and effect.

It's weird, because when I first time just looked at the decisions, they just faded and nothing happened. Now when I'm trying to go against them, they overpower me.

I tried to force a decision to go for a walk. Didn't work. It just didn't feel right.

After a short observation, I haven't found any necessity for a me in decision-making.

Is it happening by cause and effect?
Yes, but to what extent? Totally? More looking needed.


Trying not to think seems to be a thought itself. It's like holding something in the mind. Holding a blank thought. Even while forced, the mind seemed to think things pretty much the way it always does.
Going back from one thought-association to another, backwards, one at a time, I noticed that the first thought comes from a sensation or a perception. Maybe something called memory too. But there's no volition in triggering it, and I found no volition in the progression of the thoughts.
The lack of volition tells me that there's no me needed for thinking to happen. Actually this "volition" could be also called a decision.

User avatar
Mumbler
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Re: Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

Postby Mumbler » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:22 pm

So to sum up:
There's no need for a me for decisions, thinking, awareness and actions to happen.
This makes things a little more clear. But still the question remains: IS there a me?
Just to speculate, I entertain the possibility that the self is actually a part of cause and effect.
I still feel like there is someone here. My thoughts are a little in confusion. I don't know what's right. But my feelings seem to know that there is someone here. I don't trust feelings. They have deceived me so many times :)

User avatar
Mumbler
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:22 pm

Re: Is there anyone to guide me through this mess?

Postby Mumbler » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:32 pm

When thinking is happening and there's an awareness of it, it seems so obvious that there's a me doing it. But when there's no awareness, the thinkig seems to have happened by itself when looked back at.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests