Seeking some guidance

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Midnight sun
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Seeking some guidance

Postby Midnight sun » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:20 pm

Hello,
I would like to ask for some guidance, please.
I have listened to all of the podcasts and I've almost finished the book. I am a practising Buddhist and some of my friends from my sangha suggested I look at your site as they feel I am getting very close to shedding the self.

Since I have talked to them and read most of the book, I believe I may have gone through the gate. What I am exploring at the moment is seeing only my direct experience. If I do that (I am only using I to communicate clearly, I do know that I am not seeing any of this). Direct experience shows the truth of there being no I. But this is really new for me and I find myself losing the thread, or rather it feels as though the understanding of there being no I just slips away.

I am noticing that thoughts are less sticky. What I am not seeing all the time is the space before the thought and where the I becomes attached. I hope that makes sense.

Anyway, if I haven't gone through the gate, I certainly feel very close and I might just need a bit of a push. Would it be possible for someone to help me?

My name is Laura, by the way. Thank you.

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Xain
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Re: Seeking some guidance

Postby Xain » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:01 pm

Hi Laura

Good to meet you. My name is Xain.
I would be willing to be your guide if you wish and give you that little push perhaps?

Could you tell me a little more about how you believe that you may have seen through the illusion of self?
Your uncertainty in this area would seem to indicate that you have not, as 'seeing' is quite definite.

Before launching forward, please ensure you read this guide:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... f=16&t=221

And please check the Disclaimer on this page here: (Scroll down the page)
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Xain ♥

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Midnight sun
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Re: Seeking some guidance

Postby Midnight sun » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:26 pm

Hi Xain,
Thanks for replying so quickly.
Ok, where do I start? I'll try to keep it brief. I've read the book, listened to the podcasts and talked to a couple if friends from my sangha. Before that, I have been working on "me" for the past four years. Over the course of the last few days I have really looked at me, I and found nothing there at all. Before I even started the process I felt great fear. The fear continued, but I really looked at it and it was around how I perceive myself and whether that would change, whether my life would change.
I was particularly afraid of how this would affect my relationship with my children and husband, would I lose them? If there is no I, who is loving them? I got my head around the whole, if there is no me who is driving the car, washing the dishes thing quite quickly, but this emotional aspect was really frightening to me.
Then I realised that, actually, nothing would change, because there is no me that will disappear. Loving is happening and will continue to do so, it does not require me to be present and i cannot be present because i do not exist anyway.The process took a bit longer than I'm describing here, but here's where I'm at now...I was getting it, and it was slipping away, but by the time I went to bed last night I was certain and feeling that there really is no me. I half expected it to disappear overnight, but I had two very vivid dreams in quick succession. I wrote them down as soon as I awoke, which I never do. The dreams were very different, but in both I was very conscious of how different I was from everybody else. I couldn't see it, but strangers could. There were feelings of shame and fear. It's probably not overly helpful to try and interpret them, but there is a thought that this is me trying to hold on to me. I was very surprised how relaxed I have felt throughout the day, mind seems accepting of this. I am waiting for a big response, a big rejection, but it's not happening. That's great.
All I can say is this. There is certainty in mind, body and heart that I do not exist. I am very calm. No fireworks, just a calm acceptance but I can't seem to stop smiling, inside and out. There does not seem to be a need to tell anyone about this either, at least not right now.
I'm not going to label this through the gate or whatever, but I'd like to know what you think and I will truthfully answer any questions you have. If I'm not through, that's fine, but there is the honest desire to see this through.
I hope that helps, ask me anything you like.
Laura x

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Xain
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Re: Seeking some guidance

Postby Xain » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:17 pm

Hi Laura

Thank you for going into some depth there. It does appear that you may have seen through the illusion but we will continue along and see what we can find.

Just a few additions on what you said before proceeding.
If there is no I, who is loving them? I got my head around the whole, if there is no me who is driving the car, washing the dishes thing quite quickly, but this emotional aspect was really frightening to me.
I would suggest that the fear is generated by the mind. The mind cannot grasp 'non-existance'. The mind constantly acts to assert itself as 'me', 'I', 'I am the doer'. The statement 'there is no 'me'' will be completely rejected by the mind.

You may know this, buy the mind is a labelling machine and it always labels AFTER events.
You mention driving the car. Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened.
It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car'.
Whether your mind is totally concentrating on each gear shift that 'I' make, each look in the rear view mirror that 'I' makes, each twist of the steering wheel . . . or the entire journey is done automatically, the same result is achieved.
Similarly when doing household tasks. Whether mind is involved or not, the task still gets accomplished.
Loving your family stills continues whether mind is on overdrive or totally relaxed . . .

It is also worthwhile noting that we ARE ALREADY THAT. You are already what you seek.
Nothing is killed or destroyed. We simply see-through the false illusion of self that the mind layers over the top of all experience.

You mention your dreams, feelings, experiences etc. There all appear and disappear and will continue to do so after seeing through the illusion. All this appears as part of our experience.

Before going on . . .
Please endeavour to post at least once a day. It is important to maintain a momentum in this investigation.
If you cannot post, need more time, or if there is a problem of any kind just let me know.

It appears that you have already examined your fears and feeling to a large extent towards this seeing of no self, but if any fears, troubles or anxieties appear, please let me know so we can go into them.

From this point onwards, please answer the questions as much as you can from DIRECT EXPERIENCE and not from teaching, education or the mind. This is absolutely essential to progress.
This page goes into this in depth: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html
Put simply, answer from what you FEEL is right, in the immediate present moment. Don't THINK about it.

Right now, what does 'I' point to? What is this 'me'? What does 'I', 'me' refer to?

Xain ♥

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Midnight sun
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Re: Seeking some guidance

Postby Midnight sun » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:04 pm

Right now, what does 'I' point to? What is this 'me'? What does 'I', 'me' refer to?

I was just ironing and thinking about this very thing and I logged on to add to my last post, so here it is - right now I am worried that I appeared too arrogant when I said I might be through the gate. I am worried that I might be someone who never gets it and how would that make me feel?

So right now I is someone who is worried about what you might think of her.

That's my feeling. I know you said not to think about this, but as those thoughts arose another thought arose - what is there to get? How can you get liberation if there is no you? You can't be through the gate if you are worrying about what Xain thinks.

I and me is still worrying, but there is also certainty that my mind is creating this worry. there is nothing to worry about because I can't get anything, there is no I to achieve liberation.

I seem to be going round in circles, but I do know my mind is creating this confusion. There is no me sitting here typing this. Typing is happening, but I am not directing it, my brain is sending impulses to my fingers which translate my thoughts on to the screen. I am not directing these thoughts, they arise, I cannot stop them, but I am not creating them.

My body is experiencing a headache now! BTW, thank you very much for taking the time to do this with me, I really appreciate it. Laura x

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Re: Seeking some guidance

Postby Xain » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:57 pm

Hi again Laura

You make me smile - What a tangled complex web you are weaving.
Relax. Take a deep breath. :-)

You are already THAT. You are already what you are looking for.
So right now 'I' is someone who is worried about what you might think of her.
There is no-one here to judge you. Only you, judging yourself. And that's ok too :-)
It's something we've spotted together. For the moment, just let it go.

Yes, most of your reply was from the mind but it is OK - It told me a lot about where you were coming from right now. It also told me that you are quite sincere and determined, and that counts for a lot!
Whether or not you are through this invisible gate doesn't matter. This conversation and out investigation together will proceed to get you through. Have confidence.

Thoughts will arise - That is fine - And it is important to tell me what is coming up for you.

The mind will go around in circles, just like a dog chasing its own tail and here is why.
The mind, and Direct Experience are two separate things.
The mind operates in time. Direct Experience is now.
The mind seeks solutions, makes recommendations, judges, analyses, demands answers.
Direct Experience is ever-present and non-judgemental. It's simply here now.

What we are looking for here is not of the mind. With that said, how can the mind find it?
If the answer is not a thought, how will thinking about it realise it?
To quote an Eckhart Tolle line, 'How can the chief of police arrest an arsonist, when without him realising it, the arsonist IS the chief of police.'
There is no me sitting here typing this. Typing is happening, but I am not directing it, my brain is sending impulses to my fingers which translate my thoughts on to the screen. I am not directing these thoughts, they arise, I cannot stop them, but I am not creating them.
This is from thought, but it is on the right tracks. However, thought must be put aside for our investigation together. Put aside all your reading, buddhist teaching and training. Don't answer what you THINK is right. Answer from what you FEEL is right, RIGHT NOW in the immediate moment. It is very simple.

Be specific - As you sit there right now, relax, calm the mind.
What does 'I' refer to? Does it have a location? Is it something you can point to? What does 'me' point to?


Don't THINK about this while you are doing an activity - Answer RIGHT NOW.

Xain ♥

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Midnight sun
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Re: Seeking some guidance

Postby Midnight sun » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:51 am

Be specific - As you sit there right now, relax, calm the mind.
What does 'I' refer to? Does it have a location? Is it something you can point to? What does 'me' point to?

Nothing. Just emptiness. I can't find a location but when I look at the question what does me point to, I see my physical form and at the same time I know that this is just a body, it does not control or have the ability to direct anything, it relies on input from my brain etc.

My mind is directing the show. I can't find anything behind my mind.

Laura x

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Re: Seeking some guidance

Postby Midnight sun » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:11 am

Hi again,
You asked what is coming up for me so here it is.....do people actually get this without realising it all the time? I'm thinking of when somebody dies, and the grieving relatives say something like, how can life just carry on? But of course it will. Lets say I just died in a hospital. Everything around me continues, the wards are busy, people are walking up and down corridors, traffic continues outside, birds sing etc. it continues, just as it always has and always will. It did not require Me to exist for it to exist. So, is there a requirement for Me to exist for this body and this mind to exist? What is Me? I keep coming back to mind. Me is mind.

I don't know if this is helpful, but somebody recently pointed out to me how I make sense of the world and I believe they are right. My way of working things out is to have a sort of Socratic dialogue with myself, like a rehearsal of all the arguments. I talk to myself a lot. I do realise that it is my mind talking to my mind, and not actually to anything else. Actually, I've only recently seen that and often I get caught up in these conversations until there is a realisation that my mind is talking to itself. Yes, that's where I'm at. Seeing that my mind is talking to itself. There is nothing else for it to talk to, is there?

Laura x

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Xain
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Re: Seeking some guidance

Postby Xain » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:16 am

Great Laura - Now we're getting into it.
it relies on input from my brain . . .
Be very specific in relation to Direct Experience. 'Brain' is from medical knowledge.
We experience feelings, sensations, thoughts, sounds etc We don't experience brains :-)
You would not know anything about 'brains' unless you had been taught about them at some stage.
Stick from now on to just 'Direct Experience'.
I see my physical form
Ok, you take the body to be 'I' - Cool
My mind is directing the show
Ok, you take the mind to be 'yours' and also to be the item that is in control.

Great!

Ok, let's take the body to start with.
In Direct Experience we have seeing and hearing as two sensory functions.

Once again, answer from Direct Experience, not from analysis/mind or medical knowledge etc

Does the body hear? Does the body see?
If so, where exactly does hearing happen? Where exactly does seeing happen?


Xain ♥

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Re: Seeking some guidance

Postby Xain » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:28 am

Hi again,
You asked what is coming up for me so here it is.....do people actually get this without realising it all the time?
Generally, the conversation is for me to ask questions and for you to answer them. This is so that you find out the truth for yourself. This is guiding, rather than teaching.

But to answer your question, there is nothing to 'get' - This is mind again.
You cannot think of this. You are already THAT.
Be faithful to the process here, and you will found out that many of the questions you have will automagically be answered for themselves :-) Once 'seen', you won't need to ask, because you will KNOW. :-)
Me is mind.
YES! Indeed it is.
Actually, this is a very good observation. The mind constantly works to state 'me', 'I'.
'I am doing', 'I am looking', 'I am a person' etc
When the mind is silent, life goes on as you have rightly stated.
The question then of course, is . . . when the mind is silent, where or what is 'I'?
My way of working things out is to have a sort of Socratic dialogue with myself, like a rehearsal of all the arguments. I talk to myself a lot. I do realise that it is my mind talking to my mind, and not actually to anything else.
This is a great observation. I did this a lot before seeing, and I continue to do it (talk to myself).
Be aware though that analysis and questioning on a mental level will not assist you in our conversation. In fact it will hamper you. Just look at what is right here and now.
Yes, that's where I'm at. Seeing that my mind is talking to itself. There is nothing else for it to talk to, is there?
Interesting . . .
Have a look . . . what is the mind talking to?

We can go into this in greater depth later.

Xain ♥

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Re: Seeking some guidance

Postby Midnight sun » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:47 pm

Hi Xain

Does the body hear? Does the body see?
If so, where exactly does hearing happen? Where exactly does seeing happen?
It happens in the mind, not through the eyes or ears. For example, I can hear a clock ticking right now, but I only know it's a clock because my mind tells me it is so. I'm not actually hearing the clock. It is ticking, but it would do that anyway, even if my body, and my ears, were not in the room. So, no I don't think the body sees or hears.

Of course I'm not usually aware of this. It's unconscious, I don't see the moment when the sound goes in via my ear and is perceived by my mind and named as 'clock ticking'. It's like an automatic response. It's a bit like when I'm boxing (Thai boxing), particularly when I am sparring. The body just seems to react, it's so fast it's impossible to be aware of the interaction between the mind and the body, I either react to my partner throwing a punch or kick, and almost while I am doing that, I am kicking and punching too, seemingly without thought or planning, but thought must be occurring.

You asked me what does the mind talk to. Nothing, except itself.

I'm quite tired today and a bit confused, to be honest. I seem to have thought of nothing else but this for days. I feel like I am tying myself in knots, but it all keeps coming back to the same thing for me, it's all in the mind. I usually meditate daily but I've been reluctant to since I started this. I miss meditation. I realised something this morning, though. When I meditate I always seem to be in combat with my mind, it is something I have to quieten and conquer. I don't think I want to do that anymore. I can't stop thoughts but I can cultivate a better awareness of them.

This was all so much clearer this morning. Now it is just pissing me off. I never answered one of your questions about posting daily. Yes, I will post every day, at least once a day. I know this mood will pass. It's probably my mind trying to protect itself. I wish it didn't feel it had to do that. Anyway, I'm feeling a bit discouraged right now, but I'm not giving up, alright?

Through the gate. Humbled, much :)

I'm not going to post again tonight. I'm off to punch my lovely boxing partner very hard, poor girl.

Catch ya later, Laura xx

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Re: Seeking some guidance

Postby Xain » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:41 pm

You are thinking far too much - STOP RIGHT NOW!
Keep your answers simple. Look only at your DIRECT EXPERIENCE. Don't analyse.
It happens in the mind
You say hearing and seeing happens 'IN' the mind.
Where exactly is this location? Can you pinpoint it?
Where is seeing happening? Where is hearing happening?
Listen closely and intently and ask WHERE is this happening?
Can you find the location? Or is it just happening? No location can be found?
So, no I don't think the body sees or hears.
No thinking! Don't talk about what you THINK the answer is.
Talk from Direct Experience. Either something is experienced or it is not.
I seem to have thought of nothing else but this for days.
And not got anywhere. Thinking will not help you here at all. All it will do is prevent you from seeing.
One thing you will find is that when you TRULY LOOK into Direct Experience, the mind switches off and you become very silent and still . . . intensely alert . . . like a cat at a mouse hole.
Anyway, I'm feeling a bit discouraged right now, but I'm not giving up, alright?
'I' is discouraged. This 'I', this 'me' is feeling discouraged,

Look right now in your Direct Experience. What is this 'I' that is discouraged?
Can you find one? DON'T THINK! LOOK! GIVE ME THE ANSWER RIGHT NOW!
Where or what is this 'I' that feels emotions?
Is there one? Or is there actually nothing at all?


Xain ♥

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Midnight sun
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Re: Seeking some guidance

Postby Midnight sun » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:23 am

Hi Xain,

I will answer your question but first here is what just happened while I meditated. There is nothing. No barrier, no form or thought. Awareness was the label that appeared, awareness of what? Awareness of nothing, not awareness. Existence, just existence. Not me and existence or me in existence, just existence. Flowing in the flow. No, just flow. Not me in the flow, just flow. Nothing else.

Look right now in your Direct Experience. What is this 'I' that is discouraged?
Can you find one? DON'T THINK! LOOK! GIVE ME THE ANSWER RIGHT NOW!
Where or what is this 'I' that feels emotions?
Is there one? Or is there actually nothing at all?

[/quote]

No there is nothing.

I don't want to say anymore right now. When I close my eyes there is just flow. I can't express it any more than that and I don't want to try or I will just think about it.

Laura xx

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Re: Seeking some guidance

Postby Xain » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:54 am

Beautiful reply, Laura. ♥

When you did this investigation regarding finding this 'I', the hearer, the seer, the one that is discouraged . . .

Was there an 'I', a 'me' investigating this?
Or did investigation just happen? Nothing found to be doing it?


Xain ♥

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Midnight sun
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Re: Seeking some guidance

Postby Midnight sun » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:25 am


When you did this investigation regarding finding this 'I', the hearer, the seer, the one that is discouraged . . .

Was there an 'I', a 'me' investigating this?
Or did investigation just happen? Nothing found to be doing it?


Thank you. I just had to come back to this before I go to work.

When I looked there was no one looking, it just happened. When I close my eyes and look there is still a feeling of nothing and everything, just flow. There aren't words to describe it.
This table is real, my body is real and thoughts are real. When the Buddha said you become your thoughts, he didn't mean your thoughts influence your moods, emotions and actions, he meant if you think you exist then 'you' will exist.but if 'you' do not exist, 'you' cannot become your thoughts. There is nothing and there is freedom.
Looking behind the thought of 'you' there is nothing. No thing drives that thought. 'I feel discouraged' is a thought. What is behind the thought?what created the thought? Thought created the thought. Thought says 'I' feel discouraged. That's all. Nothing else.

The experience in the meditation this morning has never happened before. If I close my eyes it's still there :) don't know what it is, don't really care. It just is :)
Laura xx


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