Need guidance

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jazztogo
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Re: Need guidance

Postby jazztogo » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:25 pm

Hi Raj

It has been a pleasure working with you and reading your answers.
Anyway I have to leave this thread.
I am looking forward to follow it 'from distance'.

Keep the good work up :)

Kind regards Vivi
Hello Vivi,
I am sorry you have to leave this thread. Your input was very inspiring. However you know best and I thank you for still following it , even though at a distance.


Take care

Lotsa love

Raj


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It is kept alive and maintained by the ego thought wanting to be in total control
Raj, tell me about control. Do you control thoughts ? Do you control what happens next to you ?
Hello Vince,

I do have control over my thoughts but at times I feel it is reversed.
Not sure what you mean by "next to you". Please explain.


Ciao

Raj
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Hello Elora,
I must confess that I still do tend to evaluate and intellectualize through force of habit,
Are you doing it, or habit plays itself?
I believe habit has a mind of its own and plays itself.
however, there are moments of letting go and being. I shall relax more as you say and let things be.
This is also not kind of doership, but more recognition of natural state of being.
I get you

Whenever thoughts with „I“ arise and sense of doership, gentle question - who/what that „I“ is? - can be inserted? Not to find the intellectual answer but to open space for this recognition of natural state of awareness to happen.
It is not an easy practice to realize but I am thankful for this input. I shall experience this as often as possible

Ciao

Raj

Best wishes and lots of Love!

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vinceschubert
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Re: Need guidance

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:51 pm

What happens (to you) next ? is what i meant.
I do have control over my thoughts
So you can interrupt a thought half way through ?
You can NOT think of a Giraffe now ?
Raj, where do thoughts come from ?
Is the 'self' the manager of thoughts ?

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Eloratea
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Re: Need guidance

Postby Eloratea » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:25 am

Hi Raj,
I believe habit has a mind of its own and plays itself.
Regardless of all beliefs look into your actual experience how it happens. Simply notice. Is there anything that „you“ make for this to happen?
In this very moment what an effort „I“ puts for this experience to be here? And it is same for every other moment.
If there is experience of effort it is because of belief in thoughts or feelings of resistance to this what is, with conscious or unconscious belief that it should be different.
But no real „me“ in those thoughts or feelings either.
It is not an easy practice to realize but I am thankful for this input. I shall experience this as often as possible
Try this little exercise. Move your head to the rights and pay attention on some object there for a few seconds. Than turn your head on the left and do the same.
Now, what was happening in between, when your head moved from one side to the other? Were there thoughts? Were there „you“?
You may repeat this. It brings in an easy way, short experience of this natural state of awareness without self-identifying thoughts.

Hope you are well,
Love.

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jazztogo
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Re: Need guidance

Postby jazztogo » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:55 pm

Hello Vince,
I apologize for the delay.
What happens (to you) next ? is what i meant.
In answer to that question I will have to say I do not control it.
I do have control over my thoughts
So you can interrupt a thought half way through ?
I believe I can
You can NOT think of a Giraffe now ?
That is hard since I read about the Giraffe but I can stop thinking about it by paying attention to something else.
Raj, where do thoughts come from ?
Thought just are but brought to mind by the Self.
Is the 'self' the manager of thoughts ?
I would think so as it needs an identity / ownership

Thanks and talk soon

Ciao

Raj

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Hello Elora,
Sorry for the long pause in replying,
Hi Raj,
I believe habit has a mind of its own and plays itself.
Regardless of all beliefs look into your actual experience how it happens. Simply notice. Is there anything that „you“ make for this to happen?
In this very moment what an effort „I“ puts for this experience to be here? And it is same for every other moment.
If there is experience of effort it is because of belief in thoughts or feelings of resistance to this what is, with conscious or unconscious belief that it should be different.
But no real „me“ in those thoughts or feelings either.

It is not an easy practice to realize but I am thankful for this input. I shall experience this as often as possible
Try this little exercise. Move your head to the rights and pay attention on some object there for a few seconds. Than turn your head on the left and do the same.
Now, what was happening in between, when your head moved from one side to the other? Were there thoughts? Were there „you“?
You may repeat this. It brings in an easy way, short experience of this natural state of awareness without self-identifying thoughts.
Wow! That is an amazing exercise. There was definitely no "I" awareness for this short experience.
Thank you Elora . Looking forward to more from you both.

Love

Raj

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vinceschubert
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Re: Need guidance

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:55 am

So you can interrupt a thought half way through ?
I believe I can
Raj, a belief is a preconceived thought. Please don't rely on anything that you think that you know for these questions.
Be aware of what arises as you consider the question, then look to direct experience for a possible answer.
about the Giraffe but I can stop thinking about it by paying attention to something else.
The thought of the giraffe was completed before you went to something else.
A thought is not there then it is there. Look to direct experiencing to confirm (or refute) this. Do it now.
Watch the next thought appear. Where did it come from ? (no beliefs of story, only direct experiencing please)
The idea that they are "brought to mind by the Self" is only an idea, just thoughts. Is this correct ?
You use thought again to deduce that the mind needs a manager (needs identity/ownership) Do you know this from direct experiencing ?

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Eloratea
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Re: Need guidance

Postby Eloratea » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:11 pm

Wow! That is an amazing exercise. There was definitely no "I" awareness for this short experience.
Yes, there is definitely awareness without „I“ thought. And it is the same awareness which is looking now through your eyes at the screen.
Now, is it possible that there is a separate self in some moments and in others not? Or there are just different states of the mind, of the awareness.
Is this very experience right now yours, does it have an owner? Where would be that owner? Inside or outside of the experience?
Or it is just an experience which includes perception of the screeen and separate body and thoughts which are labeled as „yours“?
And if you close your eyes now, where are the screen and the body? Are they still part of the awareness, are they inside or outside?

Take care,
with Love.

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jazztogo
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Re: Need guidance

Postby jazztogo » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:47 pm

Hello there Vince,

So you can interrupt a thought half way through ?
I believe I can
Raj, a belief is a preconceived thought. Please don't rely on anything that you think that you know for these questions.
Be aware of what arises as you consider the question, then look to direct experience for a possible answer.
about the Giraffe but I can stop thinking about it by paying attention to something else.
The thought of the giraffe was completed before you went to something else.
A thought is not there then it is there. Look to direct experiencing to confirm (or refute) this. Do it now.
Watch the next thought appear. Where did it come from ? (no beliefs of story, only direct experiencing please)
I can see that thought is already just there and does not come from anywhere in particular.
The idea that they are "brought to mind by the Self" is only an idea, just thoughts. Is this correct ?
YES


You use thought again to deduce that the mind needs a manager (needs identity/ownership) Do you know this from direct experiencing ?
No. thought just happens. It is just there.

Thanks Vince

Ciao
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Hello Elora,
Wow! That is an amazing exercise. There was definitely no "I" awareness for this short experience.
Yes, there is definitely awareness without „I“ thought. And it is the same awareness which is looking now through your eyes at the screen.
Now, is it possible that there is a separate self in some moments and in others not? Or there are just different states of the mind, of the awareness.
Just different states of mind
Is this very experience right now yours, does it have an owner? Where would be that owner? Inside or outside of the experience?
Or it is just an experience which includes perception of the screeen and separate body and thoughts which are labeled as „yours“?
And if you close your eyes now, where are the screen and the body? Are they still part of the awareness, are they inside or outside?
From all what you say I can only sense that it all a happening. No self, No real screen and no separation.
Thanks for your insights.

Love

Raj

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Eloratea
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Re: Need guidance

Postby Eloratea » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:59 pm

Do you exist? In what way or form?

With Love.

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jazztogo
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Re: Need guidance

Postby jazztogo » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:07 pm

Hi Elora,
That was quick.
Do you exist? In what way or form?
Wow! Thats a real poser. I do exist as an awareness, Perhaps.

With Love.

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Eloratea
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Re: Need guidance

Postby Eloratea » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:13 pm

Hi Raj,

"perhaps" is not accepted here as an answer :)

When you say "I" what does it refer to? is there anything real, here, right now, behind that?

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vinceschubert
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Re: Need guidance

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:48 pm

So to summarise; There is no I making choices. Choices just happen. Right ?
There is no I controlling thoughts. Thoughts just happen. Right ?
Would you agree that Life-ing just happens in a similar way that nature manages ? That is that everything has it's own built in integrity, intelligence ?
That no I is necessary for Raj to function ? Because functioning does happen in quite a competent way, doesn't it ?

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jazztogo
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Re: Need guidance

Postby jazztogo » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:43 am

Hi Elora
Hi Raj,

"perhaps" is not accepted here as an answer :) Yes! I was unsure

When you say "I" what does it refer to? is there anything real, here, right now, behind that?
I refers to an identity and there is nothing real to be found right now

Thanks

Raj
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Hello Vince
So to summarise; There is no I making choices. Choices just happen. Right ?
There is no I controlling thoughts. Thoughts just happen. Right ?
Correct
Would you agree that Life-ing just happens in a similar way that nature manages ? That is that everything has it's own built in integrity, intelligence ?
I do
That no I is necessary for Raj to function ? Because functioning does happen in quite a competent way, doesn't it ?
YES! I know that now.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Need guidance

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:24 am

Raj, Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

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Eloratea
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Re: Need guidance

Postby Eloratea » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:57 am

I refers to an identity and there is nothing real to be found right now
Was there ever anything real about it?

Greetings!

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jazztogo
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Re: Need guidance

Postby jazztogo » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:02 pm

Hello Elora,
I refers to an identity and there is nothing real to be found right now
Was there ever anything real about it?

No! Just a thought

Lotsa love

Raj

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Hello Vince,
Raj, Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
This is a difficult one. It is easier to sense than to put into words.
To start, thought with the help of sensations create the illusion of separate self. It goes back to when we are kids and innocent knowing things as is and parents,environment bombard and condition us with a sense of identity that grows to be our self.
It works through our senses, beliefs, education that think that all things are separate and real.


Take care

Raj


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