Looking for a guide

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haleoherren
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Looking for a guide

Postby haleoherren » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:40 am

Recently I have been able to "see though" my thoughts and my beliefs but still feel separated. There is this sense of me but I cannot figure out what it is and whenever I look to find me I find no thing. Maybe I am forcing my mind to believe these concepts but I am unable to figure this out. I have read way too many books and watched way too many videos and my mind is filled with these false ideas about liberation and I just want to be free. I am willing to post multiple times a day and commit 100%.
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta

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Eloratea
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Eloratea » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:39 am

Hello there,
maybe you could share some name you would like to be addressed by?
There is this sense of me but I cannot figure out what it is and whenever I look to find me I find no thing.
Let's look at this sense, before it is labeled as "sense of me"? What would it be? Here, right now.
Is there a dividing line anywhere in your experience – you at one side and rest of the experience on the other side?
Just relax and have a gentle look in your own experience. Things are already as they are. Forget about learned, second-hand stuff.

Regards :)

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haleoherren
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby haleoherren » Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:56 pm

Thanks for the reply. My name is Hale and I will look into these questions today
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta

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haleoherren
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby haleoherren » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:43 pm

Before it is labeled, it's just feelings in the body, perceptions. Something that is always here. When I look around I see chairs, a table, walls etc. But it feels like this is coming from somewhere. There is clearly no boundary line between sights and my perception of them, but that is the problem I guess. I believe that it is MY perception.

Earlier, before you posted, I read half of the gateless gatecrashers and one point I seemed to be stuck on was who the doer of actions is. I realize that thoughts just come and go but the doer seems to trip me up. It seems as if I have control over my movement and actions.
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta

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Eloratea
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Eloratea » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:38 pm

Hi Hale,
There is clearly no boundary line between sights and my perception of them, but that is the problem I guess. I believe that it is MY perception.
Sights are perceptions! Everything perceived is perceiving; it is inseparable. Is that clear?
And perciever? Is there such a thing as perciever, or it is just a thought, concept about division without support in direct perception. Thoughts like: "I think", "I believe", are just thoughts. Just have a look what do they actually mean, if there is no assumption that there is a separate self. Look is there anything real behind the label „my“? Does the nature of the objects change if you put that label on them?

When I look around I see chairs, a table, walls etc. But it feels like this is coming from somewhere.
Do some slow movement of sight from object to object and notice how the focus shifts. Is there you doing that or it just naturally shifts?
Where the perception could be coming from? Is there anything beside this here, right now?
Earlier, before you posted, I read half of the gateless gatecrashers and one point I seemed to be stuck on was who the doer of actions is. I realize that thoughts just come and go but the doer seems to trip me up. It seems as if I have control over my movement and actions.
As thoughts come and go, so the will come and go and it is usually connected with thoughts. Body moves when will for movement comes and stops when it stops.
And lots of processes are going even without will. Like breathing.
Just pay some more attention on experience as it unfolds during the day, leaving aside all the assumptions.

Warm greetings.

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haleoherren
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby haleoherren » Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:21 am

Sights are perceptions! Everything perceived is perceiving; it is inseparable. Is that clear?

Are you saying that there is no perception without objects to be perceived? Or that perception in inseparable from objects?


And perciever? Is there such a thing as perciever, or it is just a thought, concept about division without support in direct perception. Thoughts like: "I think", "I believe", are just thoughts. Just have a look what do they actually mean, if there is no assumption that there is a separate self. Look is there anything real behind the label „my“? Does the nature of the objects change if you put that label on them?

There can be no perception of a perceiver, just perception only. Thoughts about a perceiver happen but they are just labels. Labels do not change objects nature.


Where the perception could be coming from? Is there anything beside this here, right now?

No its clear that nothing else exists besides what is here now. There are only thoughts about the future and past.
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta

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Eloratea
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Eloratea » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:46 am

Are you saying that there is no perception without objects to be perceived? Or that perception in inseparable from objects?
I say they don't arise separately. Check in your experience.
There can be no perception of a perceiver, just perception only. Thoughts about a perceiver happen but they are just labels. Labels do not change objects nature.
What is behind label „I“? Is it true that you is just a thought?
No its clear that nothing else exists besides what is here now. There are only thoughts about the future and past.
Is there you here, right, now, in any way or form?

Best wishes.

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haleoherren
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby haleoherren » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:22 pm

I say they don't arise separately. Check in your experience.
This is what doesn't make sense to me. There are separate objects that are perceived and I keep looking around waiting for something to happen but I realize that is silly.
What is behind label „I“? Is it true that you is just a thought?
Just sensations and perceptions the mind steps in and labels them but they (sensations perceptions and thoughts) happen without control. There is something there recognizing thoughts so the "I" cannot be a thought but what is it that is there noticing thoughts?
Is there you here, right, now, in any way or form?


The mind labels things as me but behind the labels there are just perceptions or memories.
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta

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Eloratea
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Eloratea » Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:51 pm

What is separate in your experience? Is there anything separate before it is labeled by thoghts to be separate?
You are not just looking, but also thinking, automatically. But, if you see thoughts as only one part of this direct experience and stay just vividly aware of experience, how it looks like than? Isn't it seamles one experience?
There is something there recognizing thoughts so the "I" cannot be a thought but what is it that is there noticing thoughts?
There is recognition of thoughts, but no recogniser in direct experience. Just an assumption that there is one. Just one thought arising. Recognise that.
The mind labels things as me but behind the labels there are just perceptions or memories.
Yes. And if you look, the all mentioned comes down to percpetions and thoughts in here/now.

Warm regards!

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haleoherren
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby haleoherren » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:47 pm

I get it now that the mind governs the the body and movement in mind reacts to sensory stimuli. The "me" is just what the mind attributes to perceptions but the whole non-duality thing is still absent. Its clear the feeling and thoughts just arise in the body but sounds and sights seem to be at a distance.
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta

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Eloratea
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Eloratea » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:26 pm

Hi Hale,
Let's forget about non-duality and just keep investigating your own experience clearing the unchecked assumptions.
Its clear the feeling and thoughts just arise in the body
Hmm, is it your actual experience that thoughts and feelings arise in the body, or thoughts, feelings and body all together arise and constitute this actual experience? Arising freshly, newly in awareness of each moment.
but sounds and sights seem to be at a distance.
At distance from what?

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haleoherren
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby haleoherren » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:25 pm

Hmm, is it your actual experience that thoughts and feelings arise in the body, or thoughts, feelings and body all together arise and constitute this actual experience? Arising freshly, newly in awareness of each moment.
This must be where I am stuck, located in a body.
At distance from what?
It seems as if I (body, mind) am over here and there are things over there (sounds, sights,)
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta

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Eloratea
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Eloratea » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:55 pm

It seems as if I (body, mind) am over here and there are things over there (sounds, sights,)
Check if it is true? If it can be true?
Whatever "seems" needs to be checked in actuality of this experience.
Is there anything outside of this experience?

Investigate what is there to be stuck in a body? Is there anything or it is just a belief and some vague sensations.

Be well.

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haleoherren
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby haleoherren » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:40 pm

This is becoming frustrating and confusing. I am trying to find an "i" but only find sensing and thinking. There is still a belief that I can control these thoughts and think what it wants but I cannot find the thinker. As soon as I go to investigate experience the mind immediately jumps to conclusions.

There is nothing outside of this experience. It wouldn't make sense but still investigating.
"There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream... When you have seen the dream as dream, you have done all that needs to be done." Nisargadatta

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Eloratea
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Eloratea » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:54 pm

This is becoming frustrating and confusing. I am trying to find an "i" but only find sensing and thinking. There is still a belief that I can control these thoughts and think what it wants but I cannot find the thinker. As soon as I go to investigate experience the mind immediately jumps to conclusions.
So, it seems like mind is chasing its own tail :) What if you would have a look at this experience from the perspective of a still, empty center of this circling of thoughts and sensations. Would it be more obvious that no one particular, solid, separate is there?
There is nothing outside of this experience. It wouldn't make sense but still investigating
Is there some kind of resistance to the actual experience. Is there something missing or something that should be different than it is?
Why not accept, surrender and relax right now?

Warm greetings!


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