I would appreciate some guidance, please

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Chris7
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Re: I would appreciate some guidance, please

Postby Chris7 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:20 pm

Hi Siobhan

Well, there’s certainly some great insights in your last post. So, just to catch up where you’re at in regards to your proximity to crossing through the gate please tell me in your own direct experience if you can find an ‘I’ that exists in any way within this form known as Siobhan?

What I mean by your own direct experience is this: If I was to ask you to close your eyes and tell me, in your own direct experience, do you have a hand, or a foot, or an arm etc. You would be able to say (without resorting to any alternative philosophical or scientific interpretation) with absolute certainty, you know in your own direct experience that you do have a hand (or whatever) and you would be able to confirm this to be true in your reality.
Because all we need to do here is to awaken up to the truth of your being i.e. that there is no ‘I’ that exists, that it is a 100% lie. Once you ‘know’ this to be true, you have broken out of the shell you mentioned in your introduction. From there you can go on to deepen this, so, over time (it could be immediate, it could be progressive) you will mature from an awakened chick to a fully grown awakened bird that can soar high in the sky (although quite how this may develop can’t be known or anticipated).

When answering the above question please tell me in simple terms whether this is true for you and if so how it feels, or, if you do not feel this to be true explain – again in simple terms – why this is so.

Much love

Chris

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MokumeHeart
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Re: I would appreciate some guidance, please

Postby MokumeHeart » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:36 pm

Hi Chris,

I is a thought that occurs to Siobhan, in many different ways. By looking at them and seeing them for the thoughts they are, the story they weave and not a character that leads Siobhan then they come and they go, like all the other thoughts.
Siobhan doesn't feel any different that before, nothing added, nothing taken away like you said. The feelings of un-ease, anxiety, a niggling fear that came along with I are no longer constant.
It's comforting, like having a big fluffy duvet wrapped around the body.

Siobhan

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Chris7
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Re: I would appreciate some guidance, please

Postby Chris7 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:54 pm

Hi Siobhan

What a lovely metaphor, especially on such a cold night: “wrapped in a big fluffy duvet”

We’ve looked at how there is no separation when hearing and seeing happens until thought, labelling and judgements arise, which when not focused are immediate.

The way it works is stimulus (sight, sound etc.) triggering a response (thought) producing labelling, judgment which produce feelings, which in turn produces thought and the loop continues, very quickly layering one upon the other. There’ll be a running commentary attached to this which is a bit like a presenter commenting on a sports game.

This is just the patterns of the mind doing what the mind does, there is no ‘I’ involved except as a thought that later steps in claiming the experiences and feelings as ‘mine’.

When investigating the above can this be seen as being free from an ‘I’ in your own experience or is it believed there is an ‘I’ at the helm?

Much love

Chris

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MokumeHeart
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Re: I would appreciate some guidance, please

Postby MokumeHeart » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:27 am

ummm
how to explain
there is no I.
there is me looking at the patterns and conditioning but as I look they become irrelevant.
and I gets to live

Siobhan

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Chris7
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Re: I would appreciate some guidance, please

Postby Chris7 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:32 am

Hi Siobhan
there is no I.
:))



there is me looking at the patterns and conditioning but as I look they become irrelevant.
and I gets to live
This may seem like I’m being picky after you stated there is no ‘I’, but just to be sure:

Who is this ‘me’ looking at patterns and conditioning?

And who is this ‘I’ that gets to live?

Much love

Chris

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MokumeHeart
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Re: I would appreciate some guidance, please

Postby MokumeHeart » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:18 pm

Hi Chris,

semantics :)

When Siobhan started this process it was useful to go about talking and thinking without using the words I and me. It helped with the process of investigating.
But this gets tricky
In previous posts Siobhan was careful to not use I and me.
There has been a shift in my perspective of me. Before me or I was the presence (illusion) arms reach to the right and above my head that even as I was reading on my laptop was pulling attention towards itself and Siobhan would have to re-read a sentence to gets it meaning. That was I. It feels like Siobhan was often holding her breadth causing tension in the body and belly. Now it feels like Siobhan can breadth freely and naturally, things are just flowing.
That pull of attention is now weak and the illusion of presence of I is not there.
The meaning of I is different. I now is the life force of Siobhan, the physical, the thoughts, the energy.

I is not a separate entity, but I need the word. Siobhan is focused on the present and in that present moment just is.

Siobhan

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Chris7
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Re: I would appreciate some guidance, please

Postby Chris7 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:09 am

Hi Siobhan

Just checking :)

That’s great, Siobhan. We use pronouns unashamedly here so it’s not a problem. In fact, as you say, it’s more of a problem trying not to use them and perhaps a little pretentious too.

You’ve done fantastically well and it appears you have seen through the illusion. Would you agree and if so are you ready for the final questions, to confirm you have passed through the gateless gate? Or do you have anything else you need to cover?

Much love

Chris

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MokumeHeart
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Re: I would appreciate some guidance, please

Postby MokumeHeart » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:34 am

Hi Chris,

I couldn't have imagined it would be like this, was that it? is it really that simplistic?
Yes I would like to see if I have passed and the best part is that it doesn't feel like a competition or something that has to be gained. It appears very clear to me now but if the questions bring up something that needs to be clarified then that feels like it is the logical next step.

Thank you deeply and sincerely

Siobhan

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Chris7
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Re: I would appreciate some guidance, please

Postby Chris7 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:39 pm

Hi Siobhan

Yes, it really is that simple, that’s why it’s known as the comic joke. And, although it’s simple, most people spend their entire lives trying to see it. Because of the massive amount of books and teachings and meetings and philosophising involved in this it does make it appear an impossibly complex and daunting task. Although all the above do continually state it really is simple and the gurus on the satsang circuits also go at pains to spell out to their followers that it’s so simple that when they do see it you’ll say “is that it?” So, it was with a smile to read you saying the same thing. When you think about it all we are doing is revealing something that has always been the case, something that has been pointed to from ancient traditions to current day: There is no separate individual ‘I’ that exits or has ever existed.

Of course, what you have now discovered (should that prove to be the case) is only the beginning, the stream entry, a deepening will follow and support in aftercare awaits if you wish.
I will post the final questions shortly. It’s not an exam or anything it’s just to get some clarity so see if you have seen through the illusion, we get a few other guides to read through the answers to see if they either confirm you through the gate or have any more questions to get a clearer picture, which, as you say, if this be the case then that’s the next logical step.

Much love

Chris

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Chris7
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Re: I would appreciate some guidance, please

Postby Chris7 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:31 pm

Hi Siobhan

Here are the final questions, please answer them at length.


1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, where the breakthrough came?

Much love

Chris

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MokumeHeart
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Re: I would appreciate some guidance, please

Postby MokumeHeart » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:38 pm

Hi Chris,

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No and no. Me is a word necessary for communication for the unique expression of life that is Siobhan

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
The separate self or me or I is the illusion of a controller or an entity that manipulates the feeling, experiences or thoughts of Siobhan. It is an illusion because it doesn’t exist. Thoughts, experiences, feeling happen and are felt and had by Siobhan. The separate self is the story that is woven and feed into and maintained from the time that Siobhan started communication with other ‘I’s in the world around her. Life flows and experiences happen and Siobhan lives them and then ‘I’ latches onto the experience and attaches a claim to it – I did that - and here is how Siobhan feels about it because remember how she felt the last time and what the other ‘I’s over there expect her to feel and speculating about how the next experience for Siobhan will turn out. But that’s all it is just a story that Siobhan is conditioned to believe in.


3) How does it feel to see this?
It feels silly in a goofy carefree kind of way. Well of course, Siobhan just wasn't looking in the right place! It feels natural.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
I can describe how it feels for me, like I have in other posts and these answers but how to describe that which is not real to someone that holds that belief. Seeing is believing :) so I guess the best way to describe is to ask to look and work with the person, if someone is curious then the spark is there for them to see.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, where the breakthrough came?
I was sitting on a bus in the evening, lots of traffic and it was dark and raining. There was noise and distractions and attention was tilting towards the ‘I’ above my head. Siobhan realized that ‘I’ was in a pattern. The pattern that the flow of ‘my’ life is from the illusion of I (described previously as the presence above my head and to the right at arms length) that thinks thoughts in ‘my’ mind and these thoughts control the actions of the body because of the thought as directed by the mind.
Recognizing that the pattern was on autopilot Siobhan took a deep breath and as air filled out the chest attention was drawn to the heart. Realization occurred that pausing the pattern didn’t stop. The chest continues in and out. Breathing or seeing the headlights of cars go by or hearing the conversations going on all around continued. Letting the breath out attention was pulsed throughout the body to every limb and onwards, outwards into the air, the seat, the motion of everything on the bus. Awareness was acute of the details around, the colours, the smells, the beauty. Truly present and in that instant the illusion of I floated away like a balloon and Siobhan smiled to watch it dissolve and fade away.
The flow of life just is, it doesn’t have a start and end point. It just happens.

Siobhan

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Chris7
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Re: I would appreciate some guidance, please

Postby Chris7 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:45 pm

Hi Siobhan

Thank you for your answers. Just before I submit them for some other guides to check out would you please expand on question 3 a little more, giving more details of how it actually feels for ‘you,’ and how ‘you’ are actually feeling having seen through the illusion.

Much appreciated

Chris

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MokumeHeart
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Re: I would appreciate some guidance, please

Postby MokumeHeart » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:44 pm

Hi Chris
please expand on question 3 a little more, giving more details of how it actually feels for ‘you,’ and how ‘you’ are actually feeling having seen through the illusion
It feels like each breath takes longer, it physically can’t but there is a stillness with allowing the breath to complete, all the way in and out again. It’s going with the flow without resistance and whatever comes up is natural. There is nothing to take personal about anything that happens. Siobhan is still all she was and is, still laughs, still gets angry, is curious - without holding onto or the feeling of needing to let go of any of this. Siobhan sees the thoughts that come up as ‘I’ thoughts and they still do but seeing puts them in perspective of the non-self that they are. (if that makes sense :) )

Siobhan

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Chris7
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Re: I would appreciate some guidance, please

Postby Chris7 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:15 am

Thank you, Siobhan.

I'll submit your answers and get back to you as soon as I get responses.

Much love

Chris

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Chris7
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Re: I would appreciate some guidance, please

Postby Chris7 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:03 pm

Hi Siobhan

Check out your PM messages

Chris


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